[anon(10562251)]

What has our President done to BBMo and/or Canada now? Don’t worry about us. We live here just like we did with Obama and Bush, we always seem to be okay. Apple/Google/Microsoft seem to be still doing ok and BB seems to be ok. Now TCL, we have their discounted TVs also. Really, the US carriers might do more business with TCT, and save the OEM but not the licensing. We’ll see, but as usual, don’t act like we’re not easily 90% of North America economy, that’s just the sheer numbers that make up the mathematics...

Perhaps you misunderstand me, Chuck. Mine is not an anti-US tirade. It's the state of your union. Your president's apparent aversion to international trade for short term political gain is going to have long term negative consequences for the US economy. TCL is wise to be extremely conservative until the current irrational trade climate is resolved. And by resolved I don't mean "trade deals" with the current administration, because the current president has already proven many times over (and to the tune of billions in punitive actions) that those agreements aren't worth the paper they're written on. There needs to be a change in leadership.

At any rate, no one is saying the US economy is a market that any company should ever choose to avoid completely. But it's also more than clear, given the unstable atmosphere in the Whitehouse and the relative size of BBMo's resources in relation to that risk, that any serious investment in expanding BBMo's US market presence at the present time could not only potentially lose them a lot of money, but cost them the entire viability of their operation.

BBMo seems to be doing relatively well at its current (minimal) level of US investment, and they would be wise to keep it that way until the US becomes a less hostile place for foreign corporations.

[bh7171]

Perhaps you misunderstand me, Chuck. Mine is not an anti-US tirade. It's the state of your union. Your president's apparent aversion to international trade for short term political gain is going to have long term negative consequences for the US economy. TCL is wise to be extremely conservative until the current irrational trade climate is resolved. And by resolved I don't mean "trade deals" with the current administration, because the current president has already proven many times over (and to the tune of billions in punitive actions) that those agreements aren't worth the paper they're written on. There needs to be a change in leadership.

At any rate, no one is saying the US economy is a market that any company should ever choose to avoid completely. But it's also more than clear, given the unstable atmosphere in the Whitehouse and the relative size of BBMo's resources in relation to that risk, that any serious investment in expanding BBMo's US market presence at the present time could not only potentially lose them a lot of money, but cost them the entire viability of their operation.

BBMo seems to be doing relatively well at its current (minimal) level of US investment, and they would be wise to keep it that way until the US becomes a less hostile place for foreign corporations.

I guess you prefer the US getting bent over by the Chinese and others as we have for years. The trade imbalance was / is something someone with balls had to do something about. The Chinese have been ripping off the US for decades in more ways than trade. The trade relationship alone has not been symbiotic in the least. Most countries trade with protectionism in mind. I believe the numbers in trade imbalance don't lie. 🤔😎 but this is about TCL and BlackBerry. Let's see I have purchased a 65 in TCL Roku, a 55 in TCL Roku and BlackBerry Black Edition KeyOne while Trump has been at the helm so I am not helping and TCL has not been hurt, at least from my purchases.

[FF22]

Pathetic. Looks like KeyONE owners just got EOL'd.

Not very smart timing considering the incoming red edition. So who is going to believe for $600 USD the one year old Key2 with a red paint job is getting three years of updates?

Good luck with that TCL.

Unless you have the Verizon or Sprint models in which case they were almost always END OF LIFE!!

[anon(10562251)]

I guess you prefer the US getting bent over by the Chinese and others as we have for years. The trade imbalance was / is something someone with balls had to do something about. The Chinese have been ripping off the US for decades in more ways than trade. The trade relationship alone has not been symbiotic in the least. Most countries trade with protectionism in mind. I believe the numbers in trade imbalance don't lie. but this is about TCL and BlackBerry. Let's see I have purchased a 65 in TCL Roku, a 55 in TCL Roku and BlackBerry Black Edition KeyOne while Trump has been at the helm so I am not helping and TCL has not been hurt, at least from my purchases.

You have an interesting idea of what constitutes a trade imbalance. I see that Chinese workers making pennies on the dollar, so Americans can fill their households with inexpensive goods and subsidize their high standard of living, fails to enter into your economic calculus.

That's OK. I'm sure there are scores of philanthropic fellow Americans waiting in the ranks, ready to open up US factories employing well paid US workers, to supply you with made in the USA $5,000 phones and other unaffordable luxury goods. And I foresee exactly zero patriotic Americans waiting in line to pay for them. LOL.

[Chuck Finley69]

You have an interesting idea of what constitutes a trade imbalance. I see that Chinese workers making pennies on the dollar, so Americans can fill their households with inexpensive goods and subsidize their high standard of living, fails to enter into your economic calculus.

That's OK. I'm sure there are scores of philanthropic fellow Americans waiting in the ranks, ready to open up US factories employing well paid US workers, to supply you with made in the USA $5,000 phones and other unaffordable luxury goods. And I foresee exactly zero patriotic Americans waiting in line to pay for them. LOL.

I guess I don't see the problem. Wheres the harm in what's being done now. TCL is doing fine. Then again, doesn't help me in any consequential way. The only thing being done is a USA first attitude which I don't see a problem with, anymore than Canadians having a Canada first attitude.

If BBMo can do what it takes with USA carriers to succeed, great.. If not, oh well. I've bought more than my fair share of devices from TCL either through BB or BBMo and hope they make it, but I'll survive with Apple, Google and Microsoft technology either way too.

Not sure why others worry about the USA though..

[Troy Tiscareno]

Ha 🤣 Troy has been writing off BlackBerry in these forums since 2013 and the release of BlackBerry 10.

I didn't "write off" TCL, but you have to agree that I was right about BB10. I'm saying that TCL failed to capture ENTERPRISE, and that as a result, it's SUCCESS has been made by consumers. I'm merely saying that there's little point in maintaining the pretense that enterprise users are BBMo's target, because that's not who has been buying their devices (again, with a possible exception of Canada).

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

I heard that US Consumers and US Enterprise weren't important with BBOS declines, then with BB10 struggling and now with Android Secure program in question... but isn't Roger's a Canadian Carrier?

[Munchkinguy]

Rogers is pretty responsive on their online forum. Might be worth asking them. FWIW, their last update for BB10 wasn't marked as final, even though it probably is.

[BBuso77]

This update is soo final that it hasn't been pushed out yet. Still waiting for it.

[bb10adopter111]

I didn't "write off" TCL, but you have to agree that I was right about BB10. I'm saying that TCL failed to capture ENTERPRISE, and that as a result, it's SUCCESS has been made by consumers. I'm merely saying that there's little point in maintaining the pretense that enterprise users are BBMo's target, because that's not who has been buying their devices (again, with a possible exception of Canada).

I don't think anyone realistically thought that enterprises would buy the first few generations of TCL Blackberries. They are not going to take risks with a new, Chinese manufacturer. If BBMo is serious about the Enterprise space, they are looking at a 5-10 year time horizon.

The first 3-5 years is about rehabilitating the brand with carriers, retailers and consumers and demonstrating staying power. so far, they've done a decent job getting BlackBerry back into the game at a low level with decent initial press, carrier and retailer support. Now they will either be able to build on that with steady progress before their five-year licensing term with BlackBerry Limited expires, or they will fade away.

I know that BBMo said they were in it "for the long run.". If they thought the long run was three years, they weren't being rational.

If it turns out they're cutting back on support, that will be an unambiguous sign that they are giving up, IMO.

[anon(10562251)]

I guess I don't see the problem. Wheres the harm in what's being done now. TCL is doing fine. Then again, doesn't help me in any consequential way. The only thing being done is a USA first attitude which I don't see a problem with, anymore than Canadians having a Canada first attitude.

If BBMo can do what it takes with USA carriers to succeed, great.. If not, oh well. I've bought more than my fair share of devices from TCL either through BB or BBMo and hope they make it, but I'll survive with Apple, Google and Microsoft technology either way too.

Not sure why others worry about the USA though..

That's not what I'm saying Chuck. What I take issue with is the delusion that somehow BBMo is dependent on the US market for survival. Or US enterprise for that matter. That would be a completely non-sensical business case and besides, if true, and based on the dismal performance of the KeyONE in the US - we would never have seen a Key2, let alone an LE.

Its time to stop believing the US is the centre of the universe and the pre-requisite for any company to survive and thrive, let alone BBMo. I wouldn't be surprised if TCL sold more BlackBerry devices in China last year than in the States. Not saying that BBMo wouldn't love to see things do better in the US - but as their "raison d'ètre" - I don't think so. In the current economic climate for foreign companies trying to do business with the US, the risk is disproportionately high at the moment. Why not invest in markets that are more stable and stand a better chance of a decent return...instead of risking losing your shirt if the US president wakes up in a bad mood?

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

I don't think anyone realistically thought that enterprises would buy the first few generations of TCL Blackberries. They are not going to take risks with a new, Chinese manufacturer. If BBMo is serious about the Enterprise space, they are looking at a 5-10 year time horizon.

The first 3-5 years is about rehabilitating the brand with carriers, retailers and consumers and demonstrating staying power. so far, they've done a decent job getting BlackBerry back into the game at a low level with decent initial press, carrier and retailer support. Now they will either be able to build on that with steady progress before their five-year licensing term with BlackBerry Limited expires, or they will fade away.

I know that BBMo said they were in it "for the long run.". If they thought the long run was three years, they weren't being rational.

If it turns out they're cutting back on support, that will be an unambiguous sign that they are giving up, IMO.

Fantasy....

TCL wanted sales right away... their smartphone business was in a nose dive. They weren't looking for a long term rehabilitation project. They wanted something that was move in ready, with little effort on their part.

I agree that it wold have taken time and a lot of money to rebuild the brand and trust with Carrier, Enterprise and Consumers, but I don't think that was ever TCL's plan.

I do think they expected it would take some time to get sales up to a viable number... Maybe 1-2 million the first year with growth going forward. But we don't even know if they made a million. And their "we did better than expected"... was a misrepresentation of the overall facts. (Just like all Chen's words about BB10... as he was trying to unload hardware).

They originally said they had all four US Carriers onboard... but that didn't go as expected.
Their stated goal with the brand was enterprise... but that didn't go as expected either and they admitted that.
They planned for the KEYone and two Slabs that first years... well they delayed the 2nd slab and the first was EOL rater quickly... that didn't go as expected.

Nothing has gone as "planned" or hoped for in way back in 2016... Because TCL was never going to spend the money it would have taken to rehabilitate the BlackBerry brand... because it is still BlackBerry's brand, not theirs. And to be honest I think TCL never understood enough about the brand to begin with. The were desperate, and grabbed at another drowning person...

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

That's not what I'm saying Chuck. What I take issue with is the delusion that somehow BBMo is dependent on the US market for survival. Or US enterprise for that matter. That would be a completely non-sensical business case and besides, if true, and based on the dismal performance of the KeyONE in the US - we would never have seen a Key2, let alone an LE.

Its time to stop believing the US is the centre of the universe and the pre-requisite for any company to survive and thrive, let alone BBMo. I wouldn't be surprised if TCL sold more BlackBerry devices in China last year than in the States. Not saying that BBMo wouldn't love to see things do better in the US - but as their "raison d'ètre" - I don't think so. In the current economic climate for foreign companies trying to do business with the US, the risk is disproportionately high at the moment. Why not invest in markets that are more stable and stand a better chance of a decent return...instead of risking losing your shirt if the US president wakes up in a bad mood?

Why.... because of the potential?

Based on UN and IMF figures, the United States has the largest GDP in the world at US$20,412,870 trillion (IMF) and US$18,624,475 trillion (UN). The second-largest GDP is China's at $14,092,510 (IMF)/$11,218,281 (UN). However, the US has a population of 326,766,748, while China's population is the highest in the world – a massive 1,415,045,928.

You don't write off a whole market because of one guy being in charge for four years (or eight).

If BBMo were only selling PKB phones, and doing it on the cheap... yeah they could do fine without the US Market.

[bb10adopter111]

Fantasy....

TCL wanted sales right away... their smartphone business was in a nose dive. They weren't looking for a long term rehabilitation project. They wanted something that was move in ready, with little effort on their part.

I agree that it wold have taken time and a lot of money to rebuild the brand and trust with Carrier, Enterprise and Consumers, but I don't think that was ever TCL's plan.

I do think they expected it would take some time to get sales up to a viable number... Maybe 1-2 million the first year with growth going forward. But we don't even know if they made a million. And their "we did better than expected"... was a misrepresentation of the overall facts. (Just like all Chen's words about BB10... as he was trying to unload hardware).

They originally said they had all four US Carriers onboard... but that didn't go as expected.
Their stated goal with the brand was enterprise... but that didn't go as expected either and they admitted that.
They planned for the KEYone and two Slabs that first years... well they delayed the 2nd slab and the first was EOL rater quickly... that didn't go as expected.

Nothing has gone as "planned" or hoped for in way back in 2016... Because TCL was never going to spend the money it would have taken to rehabilitate the BlackBerry brand... because it is still BlackBerry's brand, not theirs. And to be honest I think TCL never understood enough about the brand to begin with. The were desperate, and grabbed at another drowning person...

I understand your opinion about TCL's thinking and motivations, and you may well be correct, but I have seen no statements or other evidence other than their public statements that they saw the investment in BlackBerry as a long-term play.

I have no first-hand information to confirm or refute either their statements or your opinion. The only first-hand knowledge I have is of my own experience as a KEYone owner and a 15 minute conversation I had with a BBMo's supply chain executive shortly after the launch (which led me to conclude that TCL was uncomfortable taking on inventory risk to meet BBMo's sales forecasts, preferring to rely on hard orders from channel partners.)

Rather than trying to interpret public statements or financial statements that lack product line detail, I will let events play out before deciding whether BBMo ever had a rational plan and how they've performed against it.

I won't be buying another Android phone for a couple of years, so I can be patient.

[anon(10562251)]

Fantasy....

TCL wanted sales right away... their smartphone business was in a nose dive. They weren't looking for a long term rehabilitation project. They wanted something that was move in ready, with little effort on their part.

I agree that it wold have taken time and a lot of money to rebuild the brand and trust with Carrier, Enterprise and Consumers, but I don't think that was ever TCL's plan.

I do think they expected it would take some time to get sales up to a viable number... Maybe 1-2 million the first year with growth going forward. But we don't even know if they made a million. And their "we did better than expected"... was a misrepresentation of the overall facts. (Just like all Chen's words about BB10... as he was trying to unload hardware).

They originally said they had all four US Carriers onboard... but that didn't go as expected.
Their stated goal with the brand was enterprise... but that didn't go as expected either and they admitted that.
They planned for the KEYone and two Slabs that first years... well they delayed the 2nd slab and the first was EOL rater quickly... that didn't go as expected.

Nothing has gone as "planned" or hoped for in way back in 2016... Because TCL was never going to spend the money it would have taken to rehabilitate the BlackBerry brand... because it is still BlackBerry's brand, not theirs. And to be honest I think TCL never understood enough about the brand to begin with. The were desperate, and grabbed at another drowning person...

LOL. Another USA-centric BBMo eulogy. I didn't know it was time for speeches again? Perhaps I should pull up a lazy chair and take a nap. Here we go again...

Yours is the fantasy my friend. You and others seem to want to keep re-living BlackBerry's hardware business demise in a continuous loop, and that everything and anything with a BlackBerry logo is destined for failure.

That somehow TCL was stupid enough to believe the BlackBerry brand would reverse their sinking fortunes with US sales as the backbone of any such recovery - completely ridiculous. How could anyone believe such nonsense, let alone a very shrewd and globally successful Chinese company?

Even if TCL's mobile division is truly in as bad shape as you say, at least in BlackBerry, they have a brand that can break even, maybe even turn a modest profit. With or without strong US sales. Which in the face of all your doomsday prophesying - would still be an accomplishment (for them), not a reason for people to start planning their funeral.

[anon(10562251)]

Why.... because of the potential?

Based on UN and IMF figures, the United States has the largest GDP in the world at US$20,412,870 trillion (IMF) and US$18,624,475 trillion (UN). The second-largest GDP is China's at $14,092,510 (IMF)/$11,218,281 (UN). However, the US has a population of 326,766,748, while China's population is the highest in the world – a massive 1,415,045,928.

You don't write off a whole market because of one guy being in charge for four years (or eight).

If BBMo were only selling PKB phones, and doing it on the cheap... yeah they could do fine without the US Market.

Impressive. And what do those numbers tell us about BBMo's business case in the US, let alone their so-called reliance on it? Practically nothing.

Once again: swagger without substance.

[Troy Tiscareno]

Impressive. And what do those numbers tell us about BBMo's business case in the US, let alone their so-called reliance on it? Practically nothing.

We were talking about ENTERPRISE sales - companies who buy huge numbers of a given phone to equip a large number of their employees. You know, like when BBOS ruled the enterprise world. And BY FAR the largest market for ENTERPRISE sales is the US. All of Western Europe put together doesn't equal the US's enterprise business. That's why the US was BBOS's biggest market in the days before dirt-cheap smartphones.

You can absolutely succeed in the consumer market without the US, but you can't have real success in the enterprise market without buy-in from the US. It's really that simple.

So, going back to what I've said earlier: BBMo's success is a result of consumer sales (where they've done relatively well), and not enterprise, where they are almost non-existent.

[bb10adopter111]

We were talking about ENTERPRISE sales - companies who buy huge numbers of a given phone to equip a large number of their employees. You know, like when BBOS ruled the enterprise world. And BY FAR the largest market for ENTERPRISE sales is the US. All of Western Europe put together doesn't equal the US's enterprise business. That's why the US was BBOS's biggest market in the days before dirt-cheap smartphones.

You can absolutely succeed in the consumer market without the US, but you can't have real success in the enterprise market without buy-in from the US. It's really that simple.

So, going back to what I've said earlier: BBMo's success is a result of consumer sales (where they've done relatively well), and not enterprise, where they are almost non-existent.

In 2019, enterprise sales includes being added to the list of approved devices for BYOD. Many large organizations with a BYOD program still require that their employee's devices are on a list of supported devices for their EMM and security policies.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

We were talking about ENTERPRISE sales - companies who buy huge numbers of a given phone to equip a large number of their employees. You know, like when BBOS ruled the enterprise world. And BY FAR the largest market for ENTERPRISE sales is the US. All of Western Europe put together doesn't equal the US's enterprise business. That's why the US was BBOS's biggest market in the days before dirt-cheap smartphones.

You can absolutely succeed in the consumer market without the US, but you can't have real success in the enterprise market without buy-in from the US. It's really that simple.

So, going back to what I've said earlier: BBMo's success is a result of consumer sales (where they've done relatively well), and not enterprise, where they are almost non-existent.

That's assumes... they have had success (or done relatively well). Which is what this thread really is questioning. IF (still just an IF) they are sticking to their original plan of two years of patches... that's a big indicator that they are not having success at all.


But it could be a mistake, could just be Roger's....

[Troy Tiscareno]

In 2019, enterprise sales includes being added to the list of approved devices for BYOD. Many large organizations with a BYOD program still require that their employee's devices are on a list of supported devices for their EMM and security policies.

Sure, but in a company with 100,000 users, and 50,000 corporate-purchased iPhones, do the 3 BYOD BBMo phones even matter from the perspective of "enterprise sales"?

When we talk about enterprise sales, we're talking about the company buying phones in large volumes and supporting them in a direct way. Simply allowing BYOD phones doesn't significantly help BBMo sales-wise, and that's what we're talking about here.

[anon(10562251)]

We were talking about ENTERPRISE sales - companies who buy huge numbers of a given phone to equip a large number of their employees. You know, like when BBOS ruled the enterprise world. And BY FAR the largest market for ENTERPRISE sales is the US. All of Western Europe put together doesn't equal the US's enterprise business. That's why the US was BBOS's biggest market in the days before dirt-cheap smartphones.

You can absolutely succeed in the consumer market without the US, but you can't have real success in the enterprise market without buy-in from the US. It's really that simple.

So, going back to what I've said earlier: BBMo's success is a result of consumer sales (where they've done relatively well), and not enterprise, where they are almost non-existent.

And where is the assumption that BBMo needs US Enterprise sales to be viable coming from exactly? And what does that have to do with KeyONE updates?

Predicting the KeyONE may be EOL based on the Rogers report is one thing. To try and use this an excuse to prop up fantasies predicting the entire demise of BBMo, on the other hand, is simply ridiculous.

[bb10adopter111]

Sure, but in a company with 100,000 users, and 50,000 corporate-purchased iPhones, do the 3 BYOD BBMo phones even matter from the perspective of "enterprise sales"?

When we talk about enterprise sales, we're talking about the company buying phones in large volumes and supporting them in a direct way. Simply allowing BYOD phones doesn't significantly help BBMo sales-wise, and that's what we're talking about here.

If you want to define the enterprise market as only consisting of direct purchases by enterprise a la 2005, I won't stop you.

But when I talk about BBMo's addressable market in the US, that's not what I mean. Very few companies buy phones in large quantities anymore. If BBMo phones were fully supported by Verizon and AT&T in the US and were on the short list of "supported" phones provided by corporate IT, it could add hundreds of thousands of units to BBMO'S annual sales numbers.

That is exactly the scale at which they can and need to be growing to maintain their carrier relationships and stabilize their presence in the enterprise as a niche BYOD device.

So, I agree with you that their direct enterprise sales are negligible, but I disagree that the BYOD enterprise market is either irrelevant or that it is simply the same as the consumer segment.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Again... Roger's is Canadian.

If they are ending updates... it will affect how Canadian Enterprise customers (and consumers) view BBMo products, and in the end sales of future BBMo products.

And my guess, sales of any future BBMo product (if it not just Roger's).... how many want to pay a premium for a Red KEY2 that's only going to get another year of patches?

Enterprise/Consumer - US/The World... I doubt it matters if this is the end of KEYone updates.

If you are moving to 18 month hardware update cycles, I don't see sticking to 24 month update cycles. Especially with a product that is a "premium".

[Bbnivende]

What was the standard? Two years from introduction?

[anon(10562251)]

Again... Roger's is Canadian.

If they are ending updates... it will affect how Canadian Enterprise customers (and consumers) view BBMo products, and in the end sales of future BBMo products.

And my guess, sales of any future BBMo product (if it not just Roger's).... how many want to pay a premium for a Red KEY2 that's only going to get another year of patches?

Enterprise/Consumer - US/The World... I doubt it matters if this is the end of KEYone updates.

If you are moving to 18 month hardware update cycles, I don't see sticking to 24 month update cycles. Especially with a product that is a "premium".

Again - and perhaps you missed the memo - KeyONE was only ever promised 2 years of updates. The android enterprise program came along after the KeyONE was released, if memory serves. How did the KeyONE get added to that list? Is it still officially part of the program? Is Rogers ending support independently? These are the questions that are being asked in this thread, and need to be addressed.

Not whether or not BBMo's death knell is ringing because it hasn't raked in enterprise customers as RIM did 10+ years ago (as if that was ever expected to happen, LOL).