07-28-17 12:13 PM
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  1. stlabrat's Avatar
    Um, TCL has been using SIX SIGMA since 2004.

    Do a little reading before talking....
    great. love to see their run chat since it is small batch production for yield and each MFG stage test results (reception) and stack tolerance data. hopefully, UL and LL delta is not that high (the early CB board posted image of old vs new production units had different thickness, the tolerance for those must be very high - if it is same engineering REV). I guess we will never see that data... too bad. The best six sigma control is McDonald's. doesn't matter which country you go, they use lower cost labour, short attention spend teen, but the process and control in place to get consistancy food everyday (one day is easy, every day, everywhere is almost impossible)... TCL appear to be not at McDonald's level for six sigma yet... IMHO.
    07-23-17 10:20 PM
  2. PHughes's Avatar
    iPhone 5s screen popping out...
    https://forums.macrumors.com/threads...g-out.1644336/

    iPhone 6Plus screen lift
    https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0

    Galaxy S5 screen lift...
    https://www.reddit.com/r/galaxys5/co...lifting_issue/

    Galaxy S6 Screen lifting...

    https://forums.androidcentral.com/sa...p-corners.html

    Huh... I guess all those phones were made by Blackberry and TCL...
    07-23-17 10:20 PM
  3. evodevo69's Avatar
    iPhone 5s screen popping out...
    https://forums.macrumors.com/threads...g-out.1644336/

    iPhone 6Plus screen lift
    https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0

    Galaxy S5 screen lift...
    https://www.reddit.com/r/galaxys5/co...lifting_issue/

    Galaxy S6 Screen lifting...

    https://forums.androidcentral.com/sa...p-corners.html

    Huh... I guess all those phones were made by Blackberry and TCL...
    I don't see any of those demonstrating the same rate nor percentage of reports that's going on for the KEYone though.

    All 4 of those devices sold into the millions within a few days or weeks.

    But thanks - those links are very helpful to the KEYone situation...



    #qwerty #glassweave #darkhorse
    MikeX74 likes this.
    07-23-17 11:23 PM
  4. crackberry_geek's Avatar
    I don't see any of those demonstrating the same rate nor percentage of reports that's going on for the KEYone though.

    All 4 of those devices sold into the millions within a few days or weeks.

    But thanks - those links are very helpful to the KEYone situation...



    #qwerty #glassweave #darkhorse
    Yah... humorous when the apologists grasp for straws and end up disproving their own point.
    MikeX74 and mister2d like this.
    07-24-17 01:56 AM
  5. Thud Hardsmack's Avatar
    "How difficult is it to GLUE the effin screen? It isn't rocket science for ANY manufacturer. A guy building it in his basement would have known better."
    "if it looks easy, it is not; if it looks difficult, it is damn impossible" - many "glue" sealent, etc looks very similar, when you deal with LCD, you need EMI shielding as well, sometimes, heat conduction if back light is hot (high luminance LED stack). during new product introduction, especially after production in place, many un-predictable things can happen. Have you heard that Intel lost production yield for many month because one of new guys in the receiving open every clean packaged wafer to count them to ensure there are 10 per pack? the action introduce dust particles on to the wafer and resulted random location fault of many processor chips... The other story was some purchesing guy from a big company want to save few penny of a retaintion ring made by elastomer, change the material to a "look like the same", resulted major reliability issues in aircraft... Glue, curing method, time, how to do it, the mating surface cleaning (plasma clean time and MFG floor time) all take into effect. you can plasma clean the surface before glue in class 10,000 MFG area - get 4 hour floor life = the time you must apply the glue to get good adhesion, but if you happen to be poorly control the relative humidity and clean room condition, it could drop down to 1.5 hours floor life, that means you rest of the 2.5 hour production could be suspect poor adhesion... I would recommend the poster work a summer job on the MFG floor (especially, if you want to be a designer).
    Manufacturers that have been in business as long as TCL should have a solid system of checks to ensure what goes out the door doesn't cause them to close, which they should have . Even then, the system only works if the humans designated to perform said checks actually do them and do them correctly. At my facility we've had frustrating moments where we've asked "what in Sam Hill are they doing out there?!" And I'm reminded that during my first year, I worked in the plant and it was generally accepted by hourly employees that checks could and would be sacrificed for the sake of getting higher production numbers. 18 years later I still hear about some moron who either ignored training or thought skipping checks would be acceptable in order to keep up but wound up costing the company downtime while items were re-examined in case something slipped through. Whether they inherited TCL's practices or have their own, it's perfectly plausible to me that this may have happened with BlackBerry Mobile - someone or several someones may have decided they didn't need check the screen assembly because the machine(s) and/or employee(s) prior should know what they're doing. Especially if it's a machine. Machines never screw up. Ever.
    FF22 likes this.
    07-24-17 02:01 AM
  6. TheBond's Avatar
    Just wondering if there's going to be any issues when the weather gets cold later in the year.

    Posted via CB10
    I was thinking the opposite. Here in Australia, I haven't heard of any reports so far of screen falling, and we have winters here.

    It could be a summer problem then 😉
    07-24-17 03:07 AM
  7. stlabrat's Avatar
    "Manufacturers that have been in business as long as TCL should have a solid system of checks to ensure what goes out the door doesn't cause them to close, which they should have ." Some times, the larger the CM, the worse the MFG "tolerance" - refuse to use design selected material and process, insist to save money, downtime (for material change and set up), by using their other customer's material: - "So and So brand use the glue, we have good experience with that material, but not your selection... we can save x per unit, don't have to carry extra /order new material..." etc.etc. It took a strong design engineer to fight over with CM's process engineer, contract, logistic, and its own brand's Program manager, marketing (cost per unit impact), logistic (delivery time)...etc.etc. No body really care except the design that GLUE was intended to glue different set of two surfaces, some times even those are the same surfaces, the texture, the process, the adjacent material use are all different... No wonder those stand up to defend the design were not the drinking buddy to the marketing, CM, usually, early show to the exit door (by not being a team player... etc.etc.). Worked many industry over the years, the same play out over and over again when CM involved. not surprise if others experience the same thing, being sammy or iOS...(apple should be a bit better, knowing Sir I is very strong character to defend the design... but you only take one weak link - especially, in the contract signing chain to mess up the design... the odd is againest good flawless design.. especiallly, consumer product, when DWG/CM transfer process not like building aircraft).
    07-24-17 04:12 AM
  8. vladi's Avatar
    All Blackberry and TCL needs to do is make a statement on this issue but better than the last one. And get the old inventory off the shelves so this issue goes away for good. I have always been a believer in a lemon law for electronics.

    Posted via CB10
    Absolutely but then they've killed the project and took the loss. Question is do you take the loss in the shortrun or you take the risk and hope that it would not turn into a big deal but if it does it will become a major money bleeding venture which will most likely end up in discontinued PKB projects and force them into expensive damage control
    07-24-17 04:25 AM
  9. ray689's Avatar
    Seriously CrackBerry? I posted a response to someone who said people shouldn't be surprised. And all I said was its no excuse and even the lowest end/cheapest manufacturer should be able to avoid the screen issue and that post gets deleted? Is this for real?
    anon(10123624) and mister2d like this.
    07-24-17 11:14 AM
  10. mtdyson's Avatar
    Unfortunately, I think many people forget, you're a first time customer with BBMo. In that respect, you're buying from a company with no track record, good or bad. Doesn't mean it's right, just the fact. TCL may be a successful company elsewhere, or not, but the Western markets and their expectations are different.

    They have over promised and under delivered in some respects, but I think many on here set unreasonable expectations for a new company/brand with a very difficult product to build, PKB...
    Seriously? Now that may be the most optimistic stretch of support I've read yet. A brand new company comprised of 2 companies with just over 25 years combined experience just in making phones. Both companies have been in electronics far longer, so to say they need to be cut a break because they're "new" is about the funniest thing I've read this morning. I do thank you for that and it's refreshing to see some humor brought into the forums, well done sir.
    07-24-17 11:38 AM
  11. anon(10123624)'s Avatar
    Seriously CrackBerry? I posted a response to someone who said people shouldn't be surprised. And all I said was its no excuse and even the lowest end/cheapest manufacturer should be able to avoid the screen issue and that post gets deleted? Is this for real?
    The censorship here is unbelievable. My posts were deleted also many times including in this thread. I used no obscenities or vulgar language.
    crackberry_geek and mister2d like this.
    07-24-17 11:58 AM
  12. mtdyson's Avatar
    If you guys could read, I said, it wasn't right. Then, I said, people expected too much from TCL/BBMo.

    I'm saying, there's a learning curve from a manufacturer that is used to producing CHEAP phones. CHEAP as in not the QUALITY you get from Tier 1 OEM.

    Building a PKB device is difficult for low cost builder that's never made one before. I'm not making excuses for them, I'm saying, what did you really "expect" ?

    The business model of many of these OEMS is to get early adopters to pay to be the beta testers with initial production runs. They do it with all kinds of products, not just phones.

    It started with Japanese manufacturers in the 60s and 70s. Then, Korean manufacturers in the 80s and 90s. Finally, Chinese and Indian manufacturers in 00s and 10s.

    The unreasonable expectations are simply expecting Tier 1 OEM behaviors from a company that isn't there yet. I'm NOT saying it's right and never did. I'm saying why are you surprised? Do you think Six Sigma is part of their manufacturing process?
    That being said about TCL being a cheap phone manufacturer is all well and good but Blackberry is and has not been a cheap phone manufacturer and I would hope signed off on all production. Possible Blackberry was just too busy to send someone over to collaborate with TCL or review the blueprints and parts list because they have been far to busy downsizing... I'm sorry restructuring and just left TCL to do there thing. Unfortunately the key one is not a tier one phone on paper it's a midrange phone that has a premium price tag. If you are correct with your statement and we must give TCL more time to get the production correct then how many more customers are going to be lost? TCL and the other company making a small percentage off these phones should realize that they truly don't have that many more customers to lose being that Blackberry holds a 0.01 percent of the phone market. I would hope Blackberry would view every phone release as their last one and make damn sure every detail was correct from engineering, production, marketing and delivery. Right now it appears Blackberry failed on all 4.
    07-24-17 11:59 AM
  13. mtdyson's Avatar
    Um, TCL has been using SIX SIGMA since 2004.

    Do a little reading before talking....
    Yes TCL is a huge global company that builds more than just smartphones and has been around since the 80's
    jefbeard911 likes this.
    07-24-17 12:08 PM
  14. mtdyson's Avatar
    It's discraseful...

    Posted via CB10
    07-24-17 12:09 PM
  15. anon(10252394)'s Avatar
    Discrasscefull
    07-24-17 12:11 PM
  16. anon(10252394)'s Avatar
    That being said about TCL being a cheap phone manufacturer is all well and good but Blackberry is and has not been a cheap phone manufacturer and I would hope signed off on all production. Possible Blackberry was just too busy to send someone over to collaborate with TCL or review the blueprints and parts list because they have been far to busy downsizing... I'm sorry restructuring and just left TCL to do there thing. Unfortunately the key one is not a tier one phone on paper it's a midrange phone that has a premium price tag. If you are correct with your statement and we must give TCL more time to get the production correct then how many more customers are going to be lost? TCL and the other company making a small percentage off these phones should realize that they truly don't have that many more customers to lose being that Blackberry holds a 0.01 percent of the phone market. I would hope Blackberry would view every phone release as their last one and make damn sure every detail was correct from engineering, production, marketing and delivery. Right now it appears Blackberry failed on all 4.
    It all filters down from the top...
    07-24-17 12:13 PM
  17. PHughes's Avatar
    I don't see any of those demonstrating the same rate nor percentage of reports that's going on for the KEYone though.

    All 4 of those devices sold into the millions within a few days or weeks.

    But thanks - those links are very helpful to the KEYone situation...



    #qwerty #glassweave #darkhorse
    I personally don't care if you like Blackberry, TCL, Samsung, Apple, or what. My only point was that all phones, no matter their manufacturer, can and do have problems. Buy what you want, and move on. If the phone has a defect, send it back and buy something else. If enough people have problems, and send their phones back, the manufacturer will either correct their issues, or go out of business. That is the beauty of capitalism. If Blackberry/TCL makes shoddy phones, and enough people get fed up and return them, and quit patronizing them, then they will fail. Nothing wrong with that. That is the way capitalism works.

    Sometimes inferior products win as well, the VHS/Betamax story comes to mind, but that doesn't matter as long as the masses are happy. Hey, I liked BB10 better, but it failed, fine, move on, and I did. I have a Priv, I like it. Is it the best? Hardly, but it fits my needs and it works well for me, so, I love it.

    So, if the screen is falling out on your KeyOne, send it back, get it fixed, replaced, or return it and buy something else. I personally don't care which way you go. There are other manufacturers out there, and many good phones. The only thing I take issue with, is the assertion that other manufacturers don;t have problems, they do. I seem to recall Samsung having a small issue about a year or so ago. I con't seem to recall what that issue was, but most people who had the issue, seemed to have a burning desire to get a different phone.
    07-24-17 12:20 PM
  18. mtdyson's Avatar
    I think is not fully TCL or BlackBerry issues to re.label the lifted screen phone .I think is agents or dealers fault ,and unwilling to sent back the defects phone to TCL. BlackBerry and TCL should take actions against irresponsible dealers and agents. furthermore , TCL and BlackBerry to be apologise to customers for lifted screen and remedy plans .
    Retailers fault, another new tactic in defense of Blackberry/TCL. Love it
    anon(10252394) and nappalonia like this.
    07-24-17 12:25 PM
  19. anon(10252394)'s Avatar
    At this juncture nobody gives any Credence to Blackberry for anything that they prefer as far as their present and previous products or future products whatsoever. It's ridiculous that those who absolutely require a physical keyboard to operate a cellular phone properly due to certain individual problems with physicality are captive to this virtually dead brand being the only purveyor of these keyboard products. Perhaps if Blackberry were to abandon physical keyboard devices altogether, some other maker my suddenly decide to offer an item to see how it flies. Anything with the Blackberry name is basically doomed to ridicule by the knowledgeable public and distain by the public knowing only two or three vendors to be adequate. TCL in the United States is completely unknown to anyone and Alcatel brand is sold at Walmart and such as low end burners.
    07-24-17 12:39 PM
  20. mtdyson's Avatar
    "How difficult is it to GLUE the effin screen? It isn't rocket science for ANY manufacturer. A guy building it in his basement would have known better."
    "if it looks easy, it is not; if it looks difficult, it is damn impossible" - many "glue" sealent, etc looks very similar, when you deal with LCD, you need EMI shielding as well, sometimes, heat conduction if back light is hot (high luminance LED stack). during new product introduction, especially after production in place, many un-predictable things can happen. Have you heard that Intel lost production yield for many month because one of new guys in the receiving open every clean packaged wafer to count them to ensure there are 10 per pack? the action introduce dust particles on to the wafer and resulted random location fault of many processor chips... The other story was some purchesing guy from a big company want to save few penny of a retaintion ring made by elastomer, change the material to a "look like the same", resulted major reliability issues in aircraft... Glue, curing method, time, how to do it, the mating surface cleaning (plasma clean time and MFG floor time) all take into effect. you can plasma clean the surface before glue in class 10,000 MFG area - get 4 hour floor life = the time you must apply the glue to get good adhesion, but if you happen to be poorly control the relative humidity and clean room condition, it could drop down to 1.5 hours floor life, that means you rest of the 2.5 hour production could be suspect poor adhesion... I would recommend the poster work a summer job on the MFG floor (especially, if you want to be a designer).
    I guess Intel went ahead and shipped those chips but honored the warranty for the ones that failed. I suppose it was the same for the retention ring? It's nice to know that BB/TCL is doing the very least they can do on a phone launch that held some importance.
    "How difficult is it to GLUE the effin screen? It isn't rocket science for ANY manufacturer. A guy building it in his basement would have known better."
    "if it looks easy, it is not; if it looks difficult, it is damn impossible" - many "glue" sealent, etc looks very similar, when you deal with LCD, you need EMI shielding as well, sometimes, heat conduction if back light is hot (high luminance LED stack). during new product introduction, especially after production in place, many un-predictable things can happen. Have you heard that Intel lost production yield for many month because one of new guys in the receiving open every clean packaged wafer to count them to ensure there are 10 per pack? the action introduce dust particles on to the wafer and resulted random location fault of many processor chips... The other story was some purchesing guy from a big company want to save few penny of a retaintion ring made by elastomer, change the material to a "look like the same", resulted major reliability issues in aircraft... Glue, curing method, time, how to do it, the mating surface cleaning (plasma clean time and MFG floor time) all take into effect. you can plasma clean the surface before glue in class 10,000 MFG area - get 4 hour floor life = the time you must apply the glue to get good adhesion, but if you happen to be poorly control the relative humidity and clean room condition, it could drop down to 1.5 hours floor life, that means you rest of the 2.5 hour production could be suspect poor adhesion... I would recommend the poster work a summer job on the MFG floor (especially, if you want to be a designer).
    07-24-17 12:40 PM
  21. anon(10252394)'s Avatar
    If you guys could read, I said, it wasn't right. Then, I said, people expected too much from TCL/BBMo.

    I'm saying, there's a learning curve from a manufacturer that is used to producing CHEAP phones. CHEAP as in not the QUALITY you get from Tier 1 OEM.

    Building a PKB device is difficult for low cost builder that's never made one before. I'm not making excuses for them, I'm saying, what did you really "expect" ?

    The business model of many of these OEMS is to get early adopters to pay to be the beta testers with initial production runs. They do it with all kinds of products, not just phones.

    It started with Japanese manufacturers in the 60s and 70s. Then, Korean manufacturers in the 80s and 90s. Finally, Chinese and Indian manufacturers in 00s and 10s.

    The unreasonable expectations are simply expecting Tier 1 OEM behaviors from a company that isn't there yet. I'm NOT saying it's right and never did. I'm saying why are you surprised? Do you think Six Sigma is part of their manufacturing process?
    As for PKBs HP made 2 (Veer, Pre3) both excellent, both failed due to incompetence... familiar?
    07-24-17 12:45 PM
  22. mtdyson's Avatar
    great. love to see their run chat since it is small batch production for yield and each MFG stage test results (reception) and stack tolerance data. hopefully, UL and LL delta is not that high (the early CB board posted image of old vs new production units had different thickness, the tolerance for those must be very high - if it is same engineering REV). I guess we will never see that data... too bad. The best six sigma control is McDonald's. doesn't matter which country you go, they use lower cost labour, short attention spend teen, but the process and control in place to get consistancy food everyday (one day is easy, every day, everywhere is almost impossible)... TCL appear to be not at McDonald's level for six sigma yet... IMHO.
    Lol he's using buzzwords. Six Sigma is not the end all beat all for production process. Like many other production tools six sigma does not cover every production facet. Sure lots of companies get certified and send employees to learn it but few use the whole program but pick and choose what pieces work for them. Its kinda like getting ISO certified, the only reason it's done is that it looks good to the customers
    jefbeard911 likes this.
    07-24-17 12:47 PM
  23. mtdyson's Avatar
    iPhone 5s screen popping out...
    https://forums.macrumors.com/threads...g-out.1644336/

    iPhone 6Plus screen lift
    https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0

    Galaxy S5 screen lift...
    https://www.reddit.com/r/galaxys5/co...lifting_issue/

    Galaxy S6 Screen lifting...

    https://forums.androidcentral.com/sa...p-corners.html

    Huh... I guess all those phones were made by Blackberry and TCL...
    And apple replaced them with new phones.
    07-24-17 12:53 PM
  24. mtdyson's Avatar
    Manufacturers that have been in business as long as TCL should have a solid system of checks to ensure what goes out the door doesn't cause them to close, which they should have . Even then, the system only works if the humans designated to perform said checks actually do them and do them correctly. At my facility we've had frustrating moments where we've asked "what in Sam Hill are they doing out there?!" And I'm reminded that during my first year, I worked in the plant and it was generally accepted by hourly employees that checks could and would be sacrificed for the sake of getting higher production numbers. 18 years later I still hear about some moron who either ignored training or thought skipping checks would be acceptable in order to keep up but wound up costing the company downtime while items were re-examined in case something slipped through. Whether they inherited TCL's practices or have their own, it's perfectly plausible to me that this may have happened with BlackBerry Mobile - someone or several someones may have decided they didn't need check the screen assembly because the machine(s) and/or employee(s) prior should know what they're doing. Especially if it's a machine. Machines never screw up. Ever.
    Unfortunately common standard for quality checks is only 5% sometimes 10% in high volume parts. I forget the theory right at the moment but the practice is if you have 100 parts pull 5 randomly and if those 5 are good the company can assume the other 95 are good
    07-24-17 12:59 PM
  25. evodevo69's Avatar
    I personally don't care if you like Blackberry, TCL, Samsung, Apple, or what. My only point was that all phones, no matter their manufacturer, can and do have problems. Buy what you want, and move on. If the phone has a defect, send it back and buy something else. If enough people have problems, and send their phones back, the manufacturer will either correct their issues, or go out of business. That is the beauty of capitalism. If Blackberry/TCL makes shoddy phones, and enough people get fed up and return them, and quit patronizing them, then they will fail. Nothing wrong with that. That is the way capitalism works.

    Sometimes inferior products win as well, the VHS/Betamax story comes to mind, but that doesn't matter as long as the masses are happy. Hey, I liked BB10 better, but it failed, fine, move on, and I did. I have a Priv, I like it. Is it the best? Hardly, but it fits my needs and it works well for me, so, I love it.

    So, if the screen is falling out on your KeyOne, send it back, get it fixed, replaced, or return it and buy something else. I personally don't care which way you go. There are other manufacturers out there, and many good phones. The only thing I take issue with, is the assertion that other manufacturers don;t have problems, they do. I seem to recall Samsung having a small issue about a year or so ago. I con't seem to recall what that issue was, but most people who had the issue, seemed to have a burning desire to get a different phone.
    That's true - but the percentage matters lol

    The only comparable so far, that I can tell - is the Note 7, that had around 90 or so reports with only 30 or so being acknowledged by Samsung as being true battery failures.

    Keep note they eventually just recalled all of their stock - in the millions globally. Smart move because they found a huge flaw in their battery design (was too big) otherwise the reports would have just increased and obviously the safety risk.

    The K1 has sold how many? And how many reports do we have now on cb alone? It's over 100 and growing daily and if not daily then weekly.

    TCL is actually LUCKY they only sold a little bit and found the problem early on - that's the silver lining of their "slow launch" lol.

    Note the key point here - the Note 7 had a manufacturing problem and so does the K1.

    This isn't your typical "oh every device will have a few defective units" situation.

    #qwerty #glassweave #darkhorse
    crackberry_geek likes this.
    07-24-17 01:23 PM
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