1. slightlyfaded's Avatar
    Welp, looks like I somehow already managed to lose the USB-C cable that came with my phone..

    I have a Lenovo Carbon X1 that also uses USB-C to charge. Can I use it that to charge my BlackBerry? It's obviously more powerful but I was hoping it will know to downgrade it but I just wanted to confirm.

    On the charger for output it says: 20V--3.25A/15V--3A/5V--2A.

    The last one seems to be okay for a phone but I just wanted to confirm that it's smart enough to know which one to use before I fry it.

    Thanks!
    06-04-17 06:57 PM
  2. johnb_xp's Avatar
    It says 5v 2a so it's ok.
    06-04-17 07:13 PM
  3. johnb_xp's Avatar
    It should switch automatically. Should be USB-C "universal standard" stuff.
    06-04-17 07:14 PM
  4. slightlyfaded's Avatar
    Thanks!!
    06-04-17 07:28 PM
  5. BB-JAM215's Avatar
    It should switch automatically. Should be USB-C "universal standard" stuff.
    USB-C is not a charging standard. Quick Charge and Power Delivery are the two competing USC-C fast charging standards.
    06-04-17 09:07 PM
  6. miketedeschi's Avatar
    USB-C is not a charging standard. Quick Charge and Power Delivery are the two competing USC-C fast charging standards.
    The K1 charger is 5v and 9v.

    Competing standards maybe, but you should not be able to fry a device since the pins on usb-c are standard.

    A normal charge is better than a fast charge anyways, I don't trust any fast charging, I disable it.

    I would plug it in all day without thinking twice.
    06-04-17 09:16 PM
  7. miketedeschi's Avatar
    Just tried it with a MACBOOK usb c charger. It let me do both charging speeds.
    06-04-17 09:33 PM
  8. BB-JAM215's Avatar
    Just tried it with a MACBOOK usb c charger. It let me do both charging speeds.
    Did you mean the KEYone gave you a choice of charging rates?
    06-04-17 09:45 PM
  9. miketedeschi's Avatar
    It was the same as the keyone charger, the green semi circle pops up and I can choose charge only or boost. (Or neither, maybe that's normal mode?)
    06-04-17 09:48 PM
  10. BB-JAM215's Avatar
    It was the same as the keyone charger, the green semi circle pops up and I can choose charge only or boost. (Or neither, maybe that's normal mode?)
    Boost Mode isn't actually a charger setting. It just puts the phone into a power saving mode so that the charging process is more effective.
    1122334455667788 likes this.
    06-04-17 09:56 PM
  11. miketedeschi's Avatar
    Boost Mode isn't actually a charger setting. It just puts the phone into a power saving mode so that the charging process is more effective.
    Well that's annoying.

    On another note, the BB charger is 9v and 5v, and the mac charger is 14.5v and 5v.

    What is the 9v for on the BB charger?
    06-04-17 10:09 PM
  12. BB-JAM215's Avatar
    Well that's annoying.

    On another note, the BB charger is 9v and 5v, and the mac charger is 14.5v and 5v.

    What is the 9v for on the BB charger?
    Quick Chargers are spec'd at multiple sets of voltage and current to show the ranges supported. I assume that a phone with QC controls the incoming current with the initial voltage being closer to 9 (or 12 for QC3) Volts and gradually reducing to 5 Volts.
    06-04-17 10:20 PM
  13. slightlyfaded's Avatar
    Quick Chargers are spec'd at multiple sets of voltage and current to show the ranges supported. I assume that a phone with QC controls the incoming current with the initial voltage being closer to 9 (or 12 for QC3) Volts and gradually reducing to 5 Volts.
    So the stock KeyOne charger is a "quick" charger? Aren't those bad to use regularly in terms of long term battery life?
    06-04-17 10:33 PM
  14. BB-JAM215's Avatar
    So the stock KeyOne charger is a "quick" charger? Aren't those bad to use regularly in terms of long term battery life?
    The stock K1 charger is QC2 but the phone is compatible with QC3.

    Since the K1 has a long lasting battery, if you normally only need to charge overnight, you could use a regular charger to keep your battery temperature lower and hopefully extend its life.
    06-04-17 10:40 PM
  15. tickerguy's Avatar
    So the stock KeyOne charger is a "quick" charger? Aren't those bad to use regularly in terms of long term battery life?
    In a word, no.

    QC2.0 has three voltages - 5, 9 and 12V.

    QC3.0 has variable voltage.

    The higher the voltage the lower the amperage on the cable, and thus the less heating loss in the cable. However, down-converting the voltage results in loss in the *phone*, and heating there. So you want to match the charge voltage to what the device wants as closely as possible at the current required to charge most rapidly, so as to minimize the power conversion losses in the phone (which results in heat, and heat makes for a slower charge rate since the battery must not be allowed to get too hot.)

    The phone negotiates all of this with the charge source and gates the rate to keep the charge rate safe for the battery, and protect it from both physical damage and service life degradation. In short don't worry about using "quick" chargers on modern phones, they're fine.
    06-04-17 10:44 PM
  16. slightlyfaded's Avatar
    In a word, no.
    Interesting! Thanks for the explanation
    06-04-17 11:20 PM
  17. BB-JAM215's Avatar
    In a word, no.

    QC2.0 has three voltages - 5, 9 and 12V.

    QC3.0 has variable voltage.

    The higher the voltage the lower the amperage on the cable, and thus the less heating loss in the cable. However, down-converting the voltage results in loss in the *phone*, and heating there. So you want to match the charge voltage to what the device wants as closely as possible at the current required to charge most rapidly, so as to minimize the power conversion losses in the phone (which results in heat, and heat makes for a slower charge rate since the battery must not be allowed to get too hot.)

    The phone negotiates all of this with the charge source and gates the rate to keep the charge rate safe for the battery, and protect it from both physical damage and service life degradation. In short don't worry about using "quick" chargers on modern phones, they're fine.
    If only it was that simple. Heat is the enemy of rechargeable batteries. Quick Charging pushes your battery to it's maximum allowable temperature everytime you charge, simply to achieve a short charge time. If you don't actually need a fast charge, your battery will last longer without it.
    06-05-17 12:58 AM
  18. tickerguy's Avatar
    If only it was that simple. Heat is the enemy of rechargeable batteries. Quick Charging pushes your battery to it's maximum allowable temperature everytime you charge, simply to achieve a short charge time.
    No it doesn't. QC2.0 tended to run warmer simply because there were only three options for voltage but the heating wasn't coming from the battery, it was coming from the phone's power-management circuitry. QC3.0 resolves this as the voltage is variable.
    If you don't actually need a fast charge, your battery will last longer without it.
    Doubt it. All rechargeable batteries have a cycle life; Lithium-chemistry loses about 20% of its capacity at ~500 cycles. One full charged-discharged-charged cycle is one cycle. If you discharge half-way and recharge that's 1/2 cycle. The confounding factor is that all rechargeable batteries *also* degrade due to time; the chemistry breaks down over time as well, with the risk of an internal self-discharge path in it rising as time goes on. After ~2 years just sitting on a shelf ~10-15% of the capacity is lost.

    You start to notice materially reduced battery life at about 20% from original capacity, which for most daily driver uses means you'll start to be upset about it around the one year point, because that's the ~20% threshold between time and cycles. A laptop in daily use will wind up being notably impaired about the same time; one used rarely and kept in a moderate state of charge will go 2-3 years.

    Heat is indeed the enemy but until lithium chemistry batteries are around 80% charged they have extremely low internal resistance during charging, and thus don't heat up much at all. Phone charger circuitry has much-improved over the years and anything made in the last ~5 years or so will be well into tapering around that point, and thus not lead to much heating. The "gets hot" issue arises these days mostly from the charge regulation circuitry in the phone itself and the CPU, *not* the battery itself.

    At the margin does it matter? Maybe, but on your daily device you're going to be looking for a new battery around the 1 year mark irrespective of whether you use quick-charge or not, simply due to cycle life. The good news on the KeyONE is that the battery appears to be able to be changed with trivial effort so WHEN you get there it's simply a matter of whether they're available and at what price.
    06-05-17 06:52 AM
  19. miketedeschi's Avatar
    No it doesn't. QC2.0 tended to run warmer simply because there were only three options for voltage but the heating wasn't coming from the battery, it was coming from the phone's power-management circuitry. QC3.0 resolves this as the voltage is variable.

    Doubt it. All rechargeable batteries have a cycle life; Lithium-chemistry loses about 20% of its capacity at ~500 cycles. One full charged-discharged-charged cycle is one cycle. If you discharge half-way and recharge that's 1/2 cycle. The confounding factor is that all rechargeable batteries *also* degrade due to time; the chemistry breaks down over time as well, with the risk of an internal self-discharge path in it rising as time goes on. After ~2 years just sitting on a shelf ~10-15% of the capacity is lost.

    You start to notice materially reduced battery life at about 20% from original capacity, which for most daily driver uses means you'll start to be upset about it around the one year point, because that's the ~20% threshold between time and cycles. A laptop in daily use will wind up being notably impaired about the same time; one used rarely and kept in a moderate state of charge will go 2-3 years.

    Heat is indeed the enemy but until lithium chemistry batteries are around 80% charged they have extremely low internal resistance during charging, and thus don't heat up much at all. Phone charger circuitry has much-improved over the years and anything made in the last ~5 years or so will be well into tapering around that point, and thus not lead to much heating. The "gets hot" issue arises these days mostly from the charge regulation circuitry in the phone itself and the CPU, *not* the battery itself.

    At the margin does it matter? Maybe, but on your daily device you're going to be looking for a new battery around the 1 year mark irrespective of whether you use quick-charge or not, simply due to cycle life. The good news on the KeyONE is that the battery appears to be able to be changed with trivial effort so WHEN you get there it's simply a matter of whether they're available and at what price.
    Have you ever read a lithium ion battery datasheet?

    Heat is the enemy of the battery, regardless of the source of the heat. To be specific, anything above 86F is bad for a lithium ion. Yes, some heat will be from battery itself, some from charging circuitry, some from cpu, and some from external sources like human contact in a pocket or worse--direct sunlight. However, regardless of the source of the heat, heat IS a huge enemy of the battery, and faster charging will lead to an increased battery temp, from a combination of reasons/heat sources.

    Also, the average charge (voltage) of the lithium ion battery over it's lifetime is far more significant to its overall life than the number of cycles. In simple terms, lithium ion batteries don't like to be at 100% (usually about 4.2v), so if you claim the battery will only last about 1 year, I suspect you charge the device every night when you are sleeping, which leads to many hours each night at 100% charge. Most people don't know this, but it's one of the best ways to degrade a smartphone battery besides leaving it in the sun. Batteries like to be closer to 60%, which is why every brand new device you've ever purchased (with lithium ion) is never fully charged when unboxing. If you only ever charged your device to 85-90%, the cycle count over the life of the battery would DOUBLE.
    06-06-17 06:08 PM
  20. miketedeschi's Avatar
    Tickerguy, I do agree that most people not need worry about fast charging, but only because most people will do far more damage to their batteries leaving them in the sun and charging them every night.

    But for those that want to get 2-3 years out of a battery, fast charging is one of many things I would avoid.
    06-06-17 06:26 PM
  21. tickerguy's Avatar
    Modern devices all shut off the charge and modern circuitry is designed to shut off somewhat short of "actually full". As such a phone on charge isn't held "full" and further, the worst of that issue comes from doing so under elevated temperatures, which is not an issue when a phone is charged at night on a nightstand in free air because the charge rate is an effective zero and thus so is the internal heating. Holding one of these cells at a flat 100% charge for a *full year straight* at 20C will cost you about 10% of its capacity; for comparison if you held it at ~50% charge for the same year at the same temperature the loss would be about half that. Now if you do the same thing at 25C it's materially worse and at 40C it's REAL bad, but if you're sleeping in a room at 40C you're not doing so anywhere I've ever lived!

    Modern charging setups are *much* improved over those of just a few years ago; Qualcomm's battery management incorporated into QC2.0 and QC3.0 is very good.

    Leaving the phone in the sun, ESPECIALLY if fully charged, yes, that's (very) bad news since there's nothing the device can do (e.g. cutting back CPU, shutting off the charge rate, etc) to mitigate *external* heating. But how often does that happen these days? Most people keep their phones on them physically, not in (for example) their car on a hot day.

    (Yes, I've read plenty of Li chemistry battery data sheets. So have the phone manufacturers -- and so has Qualcomm. I will also note that ~500 cycles -- FULL cycles -- is approximately 2 years, by which point you'll find your phone is missing RF bands that you REALLY WANT anyway. This, by the way, is a big part of the reason manufacturers think it's ok to put non-user-changeable batteries in phones -- and they're "mostly" right.)
    06-06-17 09:21 PM
  22. miketedeschi's Avatar
    I see phones in the sun all the time in the summer and while on vacation. Go to a city with restaurants with outside seating at lunchtime, a public park, a beach, a hotel pool... so many people are clueless. They get hot in under 5 minutes in the sun.

    Yes the technology is there to prolong the life of a battery, but it's software that controls it. Do you trust that apple is optimizing iPhone battery life to last years? They are the definition of planned obsolescence, there's no chance they care about the batteries after 1 year.

    As for leaving a new device on a charger for a year and only losing 10% of capacity, I think it's actually worse than that on paper, and I have seen it worse in reality. I'm leaning closer to 20%, but even at 10, why hurry things along at all? 10% equates to 8 hours on keyone with light use.

    Charging speed, charging habits, and heat all effect battery life. My batteries last years longer than everyone around me, it's not luck. I will not be using fast charging on a regular basis.
    06-06-17 11:49 PM
  23. miketedeschi's Avatar
    and for the laptops that sit charged all the time, I disagree. those laptop batteries are doomed. it's the laptops that leave the desks that last the longest...
    06-06-17 11:51 PM
  24. NightFire's Avatar
    I'm thinking I could use my Switch charger in a pinch...
    06-07-17 04:35 AM

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