12-05-19 09:20 AM
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tools
  1. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Exactly this is the absurd I saw in all this situation. In extreme case, if you don´t do your job properly you risk lose it. What obligates you to use YOUR money to buy a tool which will be used to generate revenues - or whatever - for the company. And this same company take the right to tell you which kind of device YOU need to buy in order to fulfill THEIR necessities. Really absurd, indeed. And people keep saying slavery was ended at 19th century...
    Slavery would imply you’re a piece of property owned by someone else. Let’s not be so dramatic as that’s a dark chapter that mankind should never have allowed but actually still exists today.

    That being said, depending where you live, requiring you to provide certain materials to obtain and keep your job can be legal. I’m no expert in field of employment law, however, it’s no different than buying suits and dress shoes or uniforms and heavy duty boots to wear in your job duties.
    cyberdoggie and Laura Knotek like this.
    11-05-19 06:59 AM
  2. conite's Avatar
    Do you have a source for that? Together with my manager we want to start a discussion about this, so it would help if we could show some official Google statement on this.
    It's the same schedule every year. Nougat got its last patches in October of this year. Marshmallow's was August of 2018.
    11-05-19 07:36 AM
  3. vimagreg's Avatar
    Slavery would imply you’re a piece of property owned by someone else. Let’s not be so dramatic as that’s a dark chapter that mankind should never have allowed but actually still exists today.

    That being said, depending where you live, requiring you to provide certain materials to obtain and keep your job can be legal. I’m no expert in field of employment law, however, it’s no different than buying suits and dress shoes or uniforms and heavy duty boots to wear in your job duties.
    Fact. But slavery is a complex concept in light of the Social Sciences and History, so depending what theory you do adopt you can talk about slavery much more than people think nowadays. But I got your point and agree with it, mainly.

    Because of this I made that question, because I use to think that Brazilian Labour Laws was archaic and need to be replaced or dropped entirely, but now I realised maybe its better to stay at it is.

    Sorry for the off-topic, guys, curiosity solved. Thank you for all, let´s allow the match to continue.
    11-05-19 07:54 AM
  4. jdcbomb's Avatar
    I second this statement on "not losing my job. Having a mobile device to do my job is not technically required and I would not lose my job if I did not have it.

    However, given the nature of my job, which is critical customer facing, I better have a working device or I definitely will not be able to be "mobile" and working.

    Our IT security policy actually currently recommends Android 10 right now, but still allows 7 on the network. Once the new year rolls around, they will like give us a 90 day period to upgrade to a device to get 9 as a minimum. It doesn't quite make sense since 8 will continue to receive critical security updates that should technically make the device fully secure. Here's hoping my new Key2 will get the 9 once WWDC rolls around. Crossing my fingers, but have a used Note 8 as backup if the worst case scenario comes to pass.

    As for BYOD, as mentioned in the recent John Chen fireside chat with Bank of America CEO, IT teams are realizing that this model may not be worth the cost savings when the risk of a bank information (or any other corporate info) can be compromised. Just "securing" email within the device is apparently not sufficient.

    No, it's not about losing my job.

    It has to do with the fact that I am not allowed to run my work apps on an Android 8 device. So if I want to have access to those apps I have to upgrade to Android 9. But since the company I work for has a BYOD policy that means that I have to buy that device myself. Because the BlackBerry I own does not have Android 9. So if I want to do my work optimally I am being forced to pay for a new phone... Because there is no offer from my employer to provide me a phone that meets the requirements.

    That's a world turned upside down... I have to pay to do my work...
    joshualebowitz likes this.
    11-05-19 09:26 AM
  5. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I second this statement on "not losing my job. Having a mobile device to do my job is not technically required and I would not lose my job if I did not have it.

    However, given the nature of my job, which is critical customer facing, I better have a working device or I definitely will not be able to be "mobile" and working.

    Our IT security policy actually currently recommends Android 10 right now, but still allows 7 on the network. Once the new year rolls around, they will like give us a 90 day period to upgrade to a device to get 9 as a minimum. It doesn't quite make sense since 8 will continue to receive critical security updates that should technically make the device fully secure. Here's hoping my new Key2 will get the 9 once WWDC rolls around. Crossing my fingers, but have a used Note 8 as backup if the worst case scenario comes to pass.

    As for BYOD, as mentioned in the recent John Chen fireside chat with Bank of America CEO, IT teams are realizing that this model may not be worth the cost savings when the risk of a bank information (or any other corporate info) can be compromised. Just "securing" email within the device is apparently not sufficient.
    Given the evolution of security breaches, will it simply end with the major companies locking back networks 2010 style for all technology? The cost savings for people using their own laptops, tablets and phones seems to be diminishing as security compromises become more costly. Nobody cares about your devices about you personally. They’re weak entry points into corporate data farms. Could it be like the old days where the masses have a desktop and deskphone again?
    11-05-19 09:57 AM
  6. conite's Avatar
    Given the evolution of security breaches, will it simply end with the major companies locking back networks 2010 style for all technology? The cost savings for people using their own laptops, tablets and phones seems to be diminishing as security compromises become more costly. Nobody cares about your devices about you personally. They’re weak entry points into corporate data farms. Could it be like the old days where the masses have a desktop and deskphone again?
    There is no reason why properly managed EMM solutions can't easily bring the level of security that the vast majority of Enterprise would ever need - BYOD or not.

    I think the problem is that many companies feel that a simple Exchange service is good enough - and that's where they're running into problems.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-05-19 10:08 AM
  7. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    There is no reason why properly managed EMM solutions can't easily bring the level of security that the vast majority of Enterprise would ever need - BYOD or not.

    I think the problem is that many companies feel that a simple Exchange service is good enough - and that's where they're running into problems.
    What about the push to Android OS required upgrades? Is this real trend? How many versions back should be supported?
    11-05-19 10:21 AM
  8. bh7171's Avatar
    What about the push to Android OS required upgrades? Is this real trend? How many versions back should be supported?
    Probably should be relative to the number of devices running said OS version. What percentage of Android phones are operating on Pie vs. Oreo vs. Nougat vs. 10? I suspect the vast majority are on Oreo and Nougat.
    11-05-19 01:57 PM
  9. conite's Avatar
    Probably should be relative to the number of devices running said OS version. What percentage of Android phones are operating on Pie vs. Oreo vs. Nougat vs. 10? I suspect the vast majority are on Oreo and Nougat.


    Android 10 is statistically zero.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-05-19 02:19 PM
  10. jdcbomb's Avatar
    [IMG=540x810]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191105/5f85955e2d5d3855e25b0941b000615f.jpg[/url]

    Android 10 is statistically zero.
    @conite: Thanks for pulling that data. It seems that even Pie alone has a pretty small minority of devices currently. Oreo + Nougat together make up 47.5% of the current OS install base. That tells me IT orgs are unnecessarily burdening folks, who continue to receive security updates, to jump to Pie by early next year...I return back to my main point is if the Oreo device continues to receive security updates, it would seem to make sense to still allow devices with this OS to operate in their environment. But of course we may not be able to overrule whatever IT orgs decide on...however arbitrary.

    In comparison, my IT org also forces all Apple devices onto iOS 11 minimum, even if it slows / or kills the performance of older Apple devices. This has caused a good number of folks who don't "really" need mobile access to drop or not install the corporate software at all. They'd rather have the better performance for their personal use, than force themselves to deal with the slowness that we know Apple causes on older devices.
    11-05-19 02:40 PM
  11. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    What about the push to Android OS required upgrades? Is this real trend? How many versions back should be supported?
    It was recommended with Android P that companies move from the Android Device Admin features to Android Enterprise management, but with Android Q it is a requirement.... Android Enterprise management offers features that are OS version-dependent. Google has backported certain features, meaning they made features from the latest OS available to prior versions, but many of these features still require a minimum version to function.

    Some IT departments might not want to deal with mixed provisioning, some might have needs that require only new APIs. But I don't see any currently other than Zero-touch enrollment that needs Android 8 - Android 7 would be where I'd expect the cut off to be. But then I don't know what future changes are coming or how different EMM/UEM made these changes to comply. Feature List
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-05-19 02:49 PM
  12. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Just curious what industry you’re in that is requiring use of PIE for BYOD requirement? Also, will employer provide you with a device if yours doesn’t meet the requirement or is BYOD part of terms of employment?

    The reason I’m asking is that some employers in some industries are starting to move away from BYOD preference due to actual lack of cost savings.
    The good news is that Android has made significant improvements in the permission and security model over the past couple of years. It's not surprising that some IT security teams are showing less tolerance for old versions of Android. I'd expect this trend to continue.

    The obvious question is what the policy is for employees with non compliant devices. Does the company simply accept that some employees won't connect on mobile or does it offer subsidies or actual phones?

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-05-19 02:55 PM
  13. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    @conite: Thanks for pulling that data. It seems that even Pie alone has a pretty small minority of devices currently. Oreo + Nougat together make up 47.5% of the current OS install base. That tells me IT orgs are unnecessarily burdening folks, who continue to receive security updates, to jump to Pie by early next year...I return back to my main point is if the Oreo device continues to receive security updates, it would seem to make sense to still allow devices with this OS to operate in their environment. But of course we may not be able to overrule whatever IT orgs decide on...however arbitrary.

    In comparison, my IT org also forces all Apple devices onto iOS 11 minimum, even if it slows / or kills the performance of older Apple devices. This has caused a good number of folks who don't "really" need mobile access to drop or not install the corporate software at all. They'd rather have the better performance for their personal use, than force themselves to deal with the slowness that we know Apple causes on older devices.
    The numbers that conite posted are across all devices in all markets... IT can look at their own connected devices to see what their own percentages are, which I suspect are very different from the whole world.

    But the bottom line is the security, and what level IT feel is necessary to protect the company's data.

    As for iOS... your sub iOS 11 user are in the 1.7 percentile for just phones. Sorry but again it doesn't matter, what matters is the security needed to protect the company's data.
    robnhl and Troy Tiscareno like this.
    11-05-19 03:22 PM
  14. conite's Avatar
    The numbers that conite posted are across all devices in all markets... IT can look at their own connected devices to see what their own percentages are, which I suspect are very different from the whole world.

    But the bottom line is the security, and what level IT feel is necessary to protect the company's data.

    As for iOS... your sub iOS 11 user are in the 1.7 percentile for just phones. Sorry but again it doesn't matter, what matters is the security needed to protect the company's data.
    One would think that a company would align with the availability of security patches. Nougat just stopped getting them, but Oreo still has another full year.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    11-05-19 03:27 PM
  15. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    There is no reason why properly managed EMM solutions can't easily bring the level of security that the vast majority of Enterprise would ever need - BYOD or not.

    I think the problem is that many companies feel that a simple Exchange service is good enough - and that's where they're running into problems.
    The only way that BYOD (for phones or laptops) can really work in terms of security is by adopting a "zero trust" model where MFA is required for every request.

    The zero trust mantra is "assume breach" for every request for sensitive data and re-validate the user. Since the device functions as "something you have" that means the user would need to re-validate with passwords or another "something you know" constantly.

    This can be automated somewhat with authentication apps and hardware keys, but it is still inconvenient, exacting a cost in productivity and possibly morale.

    This is in fact the trend, and our future may include dozens to hundreds more long passwords for encrypted containers and files. The days of the widely shared unencrypted Box folder and SharePoint directory may be coming to an end.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    11-05-19 04:55 PM
  16. conite's Avatar
    The only way that BYOD (for phones or laptops) can really work in terms of security is by adopting a "zero trust" model where MFA is required for every request.

    The zero trust mantra is "assume breach" for every request for sensitive data and re-validate the user. Since the device functions as "something you have" that means the user would need to re-validate with passwords or another "something you know" constantly.

    This can be automated somewhat with authentication apps and hardware keys, but it is still inconvenient, exacting a cost in productivity and possibly morale.

    This is in fact the trend, and our future may include dozens to hundreds more long passwords for encrypted containers and files. The days of the widely shared unencrypted Box folder and SharePoint directory may be coming to an end.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    The containerised portion of an approved device can be made indistinguishable from a corporate supplied device.
    11-05-19 05:03 PM
  17. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Alright everybody. We’re getting close to point where I have to start Google translate just to keep up with all your techspeak
    11-05-19 05:32 PM
  18. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    The containerised portion of an approved device can be made indistinguishable from a corporate supplied device.
    Agreed. That's why they are so important.

    Those protections, however, are only as good as the security of the OS itself, which is why there is more focus on running current versions of the OS. The way that Android has tightened up permissions and notifications since is making it more difficult to use social engineering techniques based on people's relatively week attention to what their devices are telling/asking them to do.



    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    11-05-19 06:01 PM
  19. danfrancisco's Avatar
    Alright everybody. We’re getting close to point where I have to start Google translate just to keep up with all your techspeak
    Ain't that the truth!

    I just found out today that my company will be ending support for Android O and about 9 months and require all devices to be on P or higher. With no P in sight for the KEY2, this presents a major problem for my plans of running it into the ground!

    Hey TCL, what's the per device licensing delta that you owe BlackBerry Ltd in order to get P??? I'll happily pay it for my device!!
    11-05-19 09:53 PM
  20. tubularbell's Avatar
    Ain't that the truth!

    I just found out today that my company will be ending support for Android O and about 9 months and require all devices to be on P or higher. With no P in sight for the KEY2, this presents a major problem for my plans of running it into the ground!

    Hey TCL, what's the per device licensing delta that you owe BlackBerry Ltd in order to get P??? I'll happily pay it for my device!!
    You got 9 months... Mine is stopping O in 1,5.... Lucky guy
    11-06-19 01:31 AM
  21. chain13's Avatar
    You got 9 months... Mine is stopping O in 1,5.... Lucky guy
    Buy a pixel for your next for guarantee
    11-06-19 01:38 AM
  22. tubularbell's Avatar
    Buy a pixel for your next for guarantee
    I am not going to buy anything if it's up to me. I have asked my company to provide me with a company phone. Legally they cannot make me use my own phone if I don't want to. And my manager says I need one for my work. And in that case my employer has to provide me one.
    They do not like my attitude, because it is not in the policy. So they see me as someone who is making trouble, but luckily I am not standing alone.
    I'll be posting the outcome here when the story has come to an end.
    11-06-19 01:46 AM
  23. thurask's Avatar
    Update policies like that assume BYOD means walking into a store and walking out with something that people have heard of 9 times out of 10, i.e. if it was purchased some time in the past 2 years then Pie (or even Q) would be a given. For the 1 time out of 10 it's up to the OEM, although TCL seems to be the exception more than the rule.
    11-06-19 01:49 AM
  24. chain13's Avatar
    I am not going to buy anything if it's up to me. I have asked my company to provide me with a company phone. Legally they cannot make me use my own phone if I don't want to. And my manager says I need one for my work. And in that case my employer has to provide me one.
    They do not like my attitude, because it is not in the policy. So they see me as someone who is making trouble, but luckily I am not standing alone.
    I'll be posting the outcome here when the story has come to an end.
    That's a good move from you.

    I just suggest if you really decide to go to byod route, pixel or cheaper android one variants will give you better software support for your work than any other androids.
    11-06-19 02:10 AM
  25. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    That's a good move from you.

    I just suggest if you really decide to go to byod route, pixel or cheaper android one variants will give you better software support for your work than any other androids.
    Yeah.... better them than me. I like having a job and not having to look for a new one.

    If you want to fight the battle, need to see what in fact the laws are in your state. Generally it is required that a company should cover any usage of personal property.... but it's not defined for phones like it is with vehicles. But they can require it, as long as they reimburse you "something"- unless your state defines it (AFAIK only California does).

    But in a recent survey only about half of companies with a BYOD policy offer any reimbursement.... you can bet both HR and IT know they aren't alone.

    In my view if they have a policy that limits your phone... like blocking screen shots or other standard features, they should provide a phone. If all they want is you to have email that you utilize three or four time a week and maybe a few after hours calls....if you are salary, it could be part of the job description.

    Sadly real people here have lost their job over their views about BlackBerry.... that is taking things way too far.
    11-06-19 09:15 AM
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