09-17-18 09:59 PM
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  1. WES51's Avatar
    For a while now, many if not most phones come with built-in, non-repacable batteries.

    I simply don't understand why people put up with this. While there is an implied promise or expectation of a fully built-in battery to have a higher capacity, I would argue that such difference is minimal if at all noticeable.

    At the same time an easily replaceable battery has so many advantages and can save so many headaches in a variety of situations.

    I'm writing all this, being somewhat frustrated to see that the new Key2 has a 'fixed' battery again. E.g. I know of a few Samsungs with fantastic battery life and yet featuring an easily replaceable battery by the user.
    jamesharmeling likes this.
    09-15-18 08:45 AM
  2. dbollman423's Avatar
    I know many phones are designed to withstand exposure to water, dirt and dust (samsung, etc.). With the Key line the battery performance has been exceptional. Add to it QC 3.0 (backwards compatible with QC 2.0) and swapping out batteries just has not been that big of an issue. Everyone has some down time to get a charge within 24 hours.

    Even the phones you reference give up features like cordless charging.
    09-15-18 11:10 AM
  3. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    For a while now, many if not most phones come with built-in, non-repacable batteries.

    I simply don't understand why people put up with this. While there is an implied promise or expectation of a fully built-in battery to have a higher capacity, I would argue that such difference is minimal if at all noticeable.

    At the same time an easily replaceable battery has so many advantages and can save so many headaches in a variety of situations.

    I'm writing all this, being somewhat frustrated to see that the new Key2 has a 'fixed' battery again. E.g. I know of a few Samsungs with fantastic battery life and yet featuring an easily replaceable battery by the user.
    I’m really not familiar with hardware designed and produced in 2017-2018 timeframe still using replaceable batteries as selling point. The OEMs and carriers aren’t interested with selling replacement batteries instead of replacement phones.
    09-15-18 11:20 AM
  4. WES51's Avatar
    YES, while I'm ready to trade for water resistance and wireless charging, the KEY2 has neither other than a fixed battery.
    the_boon likes this.
    09-15-18 11:20 AM
  5. WES51's Avatar
    Pushback from the customers has usually had good results in producing changes, but in this instance customers are silent and taking a beating. Hence my original question?
    The OEMs and carriers aren’t interested with selling replacement batteries instead of replacement phones.
    As a customer with my own interests, why would I be interested what the OEM's are interested in?
    jmorgan456 likes this.
    09-15-18 11:27 AM
  6. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Pushback from the customers has usually had good results in producing changes, but in this instance customers are silent and taking a beating. Hence my original question?
    As a customer with my own interests, why would I be interested what the OEM's are interested in?
    Because most customers have different concerns and preferences than you. The carriers and OEMs are doing a better job than you are to accept they’re viewpoint.
    dbollman423 likes this.
    09-15-18 11:35 AM
  7. conite's Avatar
    YES, while I'm ready to trade for water resistance and wireless charging, the KEY2 has neither other than a fixed battery.
    Replaceable batteries cause additional failure and wear points, and require more space and weight for a given capacity.

    The fact that most phones get you through the day just fine, and have quick charge to boot, negates the need for it.
    dbollman423 and rjedge54 like this.
    09-15-18 12:11 PM
  8. WES51's Avatar
    Because most customers have different concerns and preferences than you. The carriers and OEMs are doing a better job than you are to accept they’re viewpoint.
    Then "most" customers can enjoy their fixed battery and consequent frequent phone replacements.
    09-15-18 01:12 PM
  9. WES51's Avatar
    Replaceable batteries cause additional failure and wear points, and require more space and weight for a given capacity.

    The fact that most phones get you through the day just fine, and have quick charge to boot, negates the need for it.
    I have to strongly disagree with the failiure and wear points here. If this was an issue, then you could forget all high amp electrical connections via connectors. However high amp connectors do work and are proven technology for very long time already.

    I do not question the space/weight argument, but how much space and weight saving are we talking about in order to give up easy battery serviceability? Particularly with respect to the unpredictable life expectancy of some phone batteries.

    Ultimately something that IS serviceable (replaceable battery in this case) has clearly an advantage to something that NOT serviceable (fixed battery).

    The main problem that I see is the complacency of customers. There is no passion, no vision, no expectations, no challenges.

    No wonder the pace slowed down after Steve Jobs.
    Mamaluka likes this.
    09-15-18 01:38 PM
  10. joeldf's Avatar
    Then "most" customers can enjoy their fixed battery and consequent frequent phone replacements.
    And, they apparently do.

    I'm not happy about it either, but I've learned that shouting at the sky for raining doesn't do much.

    (But, I still do it sometimes)
    Mamaluka, towngirl, john_v and 2 others like this.
    09-15-18 01:42 PM
  11. ray689's Avatar
    Then "most" customers can enjoy their fixed battery and consequent frequent phone replacements.
    I don't think I know anyone who has had to replace their phone due to battery failure. I'm sure it happens but just doesn't seem like something all too common.
    09-15-18 02:52 PM
  12. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Then "most" customers can enjoy their fixed battery and consequent frequent phone replacements.
    Those customers are enjoying. You posed a question. Manufacturers produce what generates the most profit. Companies aren’t in business to lower profits. If customers are happy with the current model, so be it.
    09-15-18 02:57 PM
  13. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I have to strongly disagree with the failiure and wear points here. If this was an issue, then you could forget all high amp electrical connections via connectors. However high amp connectors do work and are proven technology for very long time already.

    I do not question the space/weight argument, but how much space and weight saving are we talking about in order to give up easy battery serviceability? Particularly with respect to the unpredictable life expectancy of some phone batteries.

    Ultimately something that IS serviceable (replaceable battery in this case) has clearly an advantage to something that NOT serviceable (fixed battery).

    The main problem that I see is the complacency of customers. There is no passion, no vision, no expectations, no challenges.

    No wonder the pace slowed down after Steve Jobs.
    I don’t recall iPhones ever having replaceable batteries...
    09-15-18 02:59 PM
  14. MaDLiVe's Avatar
    I don’t recall iPhones ever having replaceable batteries...
    For a long time they were very easy to replace though (up to the 5s).

    I see it as their business model, batteries are know to wear over time and typically do so in 2-3 years, which was the regular life cycles of phones anyway. Although under sustainability processes, especially with fairly strong hardware the battery has become the main bottleneck in keeping your phone after 2-3 years.
    Bbnivende likes this.
    09-15-18 03:50 PM
  15. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    For a long time they were very easy to replace though (up to the 5s).

    I see it as their business model, batteries are know to wear over time and typically do so in 2-3 years, which was the regular life cycles of phones anyway. Although under sustainability processes, especially with fairly strong hardware the battery has become the main bottleneck in keeping your phone after 2-3 years.
    My point was that Steve Jobs intended for you to completely replace your iPhone not just the battery.
    09-15-18 04:02 PM
  16. Elky64's Avatar
    Those customers are enjoying. You posed a question. Manufacturers produce what generates the most profit. Companies aren’t in business to lower profits. If customers are happy with the current model, so be it.
    Well, customers have no choice but to enjoy and be happy otherwise their selection of phones with replaceable batteries becomes very limited. No? Or they do without but obviously that is not happening.

    I associate those devices with non-replaceable batteries as "throwaways" unless one invests more $ in 3-4 years to have them rejuvenated. Then one can kiss the IP rating (if applicable) goodbye whenever that's done.

    Manufactures found an area (not the first) where they can reap the benefits (profits) and us as consumers just keep buying into it. Agree, they aren't in the business to lower profits yet, IMHO, the greed level has surely risen.
    Last edited by Elky64; 09-15-18 at 04:37 PM.
    09-15-18 04:18 PM
  17. conite's Avatar
    I have to strongly disagree with the failiure and wear points here. If this was an issue, then you could forget all high amp electrical connections via connectors. However high amp connectors do work and are proven technology for very long time already.

    I do not question the space/weight argument, but how much space and weight saving are we talking about in order to give up easy battery serviceability? Particularly with respect to the unpredictable life expectancy of some phone batteries.

    Ultimately something that IS serviceable (replaceable battery in this case) has clearly an advantage to something that NOT serviceable (fixed battery).

    The main problem that I see is the complacency of customers. There is no passion, no vision, no expectations, no challenges.

    No wonder the pace slowed down after Steve Jobs.
    Wear points are wear points. Period.

    I would much prefer a battery that lasts a day, rather than having to deal with the extra failure point and bulk.
    09-15-18 04:19 PM
  18. the_boon's Avatar

    The main problem that I see is the complacency of customers. There is no passion, no vision, no expectations, no challenges.

    No wonder the pace slowed down after Steve Jobs.
    I have to agree 1000% with your first point. Consumers are gobbling everything Apple/Android copiers throw at them, it's also why every phone is a one-size-fits-all boring slab.
    All people expect is that the next phone is yet another slab with slightly enhanced CPU, screen and camera. That's enough for them to scream "Take my $$$".
    Almost all those who tried to bring something different/innovative on this boring market failed... it's extremely frustrating as a consumer who expects more.

    You walk into a car dealership, you see sedans, SUV's, coupes/convertibles, pickups etc...
    You walk into a smartphone section at a store, you see slabs...and slabs.


    As for Steve Jobs, well, the very first iPhone already killed off the removable battery (and it's battery life was AWEFUL) as well as expandable storage and of course the keyboard.
    Elky64 and WES51 like this.
    09-15-18 04:38 PM
  19. WES51's Avatar
    Wear points are wear points. Period.

    I would much prefer a battery that lasts a day, rather than having to deal with the extra failure point and bulk.
    Fixed batteries are connected via connectors as well. The main issue with the difficulty of changing batteries is not about the connectors, but rather about the inaccessible design of those batteries.

    As far as the wear points argument goes, even simple wear points can be and are made very durable these days - so no problems there.

    Indeed even the mechanically strongly used wear points of the USB charger of a fixed battery phone do usually last for the lifetime of the phone. By the way if anything, then the wear points argument should point rather to these USB charger contacts and not to the battery contacts!
    Elky64 likes this.
    09-15-18 04:59 PM
  20. Elky64's Avatar
    Wear points are wear points. Period.

    I would much prefer a battery that lasts a day, rather than having to deal with the extra failure point and bulk.
    No disrespect but I don't think your claim is all that prevalent as you make it out to be.

    Being an electronics junkie having owned many many devices w/replaceable batteries we cannot recall one instance where wear points in this regard was even a concern, and we're talking over a course of several decades.

    Even our present phones, w/replaceable batteries, never had an issue even though I probably had them in and out more times than Carter has pills.
    Last edited by Elky64; 09-15-18 at 09:10 PM.
    WES51 likes this.
    09-15-18 05:04 PM
  21. WES51's Avatar
    All people expect is that the next phone is yet another slab with slightly enhanced CPU, screen and camera. That's enough for them to scream "Take my $$$".
    Exactly.

    If we are talking about phones with fixed batteries, if anything the justification to those phones can only be one single thing - strong water resistance.

    Instead here we are arguing about fixed vs. removable for what benefit? Manufacturers profit? Why, are we stockholders?
    Elky64 likes this.
    09-15-18 05:12 PM
  22. Elky64's Avatar
    My point was that Steve Jobs intended for you to completely replace your iPhone not just the battery.
    And now the competition has followed suit seeing if they can hit the $1 trillion mark too. It really is becoming a greed driven throwaway world which is a shame.
    WES51 likes this.
    09-15-18 05:13 PM
  23. the_boon's Avatar
    Exactly.

    If we are talking about phones with fixed batteries, if anything the justification to those phones can only be one single thing - strong water resistance.
    Well, the Galaxy S5 had an IP67 rating AND a removable battery. Although obviously I wouldn’t trust it in water as much as a sealed-in IP phone. But at least you got both worlds. Sammy proved it was possible. One more gen could have perfected it, who knows? But instead the S6 opted for fixed 2600mAh, and no SDcard support, which is a huge regression on so many levels, but that’s another topic.
    Elky64 and WES51 like this.
    09-15-18 05:17 PM
  24. Elky64's Avatar
    Exactly.

    If we are talking about phones with fixed batteries, if anything the justification to those phones can only be one single thing - strong water resistance.

    Instead here we are arguing about fixed vs. removable for what benefit? Manufacturers profit? Why, are we stockholders?
    Water resistance just allows some consumers to be more lackadaisical with their devices. All of my non-IP rated devices over the years are still going strong so don't see what the big deal with this is. And we still treat any of our device with, as if they weren't. Works for me.
    09-15-18 05:19 PM
  25. WES51's Avatar
    ...which is a huge regression on so many levels, but that’s another topic...
    That is exactly my point. We are not going forward (or in some cases as you mentioned we are arguably going backward), and yet everyone seem to be OK with it.

    KEY1 should have already been flamed for having no removable battery OR at least it should have had wireless charging with that fixed battery. IF there was an outcry at that time, then we could have had quite possibly a CHANCE enjoying those features now on KEY2.

    But even now, it appears as if I have to throttle back my "crazy", "out of this world", "impossible to realize" wishes and accept and bow to what I can buy and fork over my $$$ already.
    09-15-18 05:37 PM
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