11-12-19 09:14 PM
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  1. conite's Avatar
    My point is that management decisions influenced also handset decisions.... Maybe Optiemus was not that strong as licensee. But since as stated by somebody else the name in the phone is BB, than I would take the necessary steps towards customers to hold up my reputation as BB. In this sense I think Chen and the Board are responsible.
    BlackBerry only got paid a couple of million dollars by Optiemus. You want them to divert resources to fiddle with handsets again? The update software on the phone is proprietary to TCL, and only checks TCL's servers for new builds. What will you have BlackBerry do?

    In addition, despite the legal dispute, Optiemus still has the rights to the brand in India, and BlackBerry likely can't interact with the end-users there anyway.
    Last edited by conite; 11-04-19 at 10:02 AM.
    11-04-19 09:27 AM
  2. Sigewif's Avatar
    My point is that management decisions influenced also handset decisions.... Maybe Optiemus was not that strong as licensee. But since as stated by somebody else the name in the phone is BB, than I would take the necessary steps towards customers to hold up my reputation as BB. In this sense I think Chen and the Board are responsible.
    I agree. It is important to the reputation of the brand name. As stated before this is so important that there are businesses that have as a business model to help businesses with their reputation. It is about public perception and reputation. Like it or not if it has a BlackBerry logo on it, it is part of the face of BlackBerry.
    11-04-19 10:22 AM
  3. Sigewif's Avatar
    I care that I am still getting updates for my KEY2s. I also care that I didn't get an update after February for my silver KEYone so I was short of 2 years of updates as it came out in the US in June. That was disappointing to me and did not help my perception of the brand as a whole. A reasonable person would ask if this means they would treat their customers in other areas of their business the same way.
    Crusader03 likes this.
    11-04-19 10:27 AM
  4. Crusader03's Avatar
    It's interesting that no one can source financial statements for BlackBerry Licensees with any kind of breakdown, yet somehow we can state that Optiemus only paid a couple of Million $$$ to BlackBerry Ltd. What is your source for these financial statements?
    elfabio80 likes this.
    11-04-19 10:37 AM
  5. conite's Avatar
    I care that I am still getting updates for my KEY2s. I also care that I didn't get an update after February for my silver KEYone so I was short of 2 years of updates as it came out in the US in June. That was disappointing to me and did not help my perception of the brand as a whole. A reasonable person would ask if this means they would treat their customers in other areas of their business the same way.
    But you're mobile focused. Most car companies or IT managers couldn't care less about updates on an Indian variant on a phone.

    And even with your handset bias, you STILL bought a Cylance product.

    So, in your estimation, how many disgruntled Optiemus IT customers, will not purchase Cylance who otherwise would have?
    Last edited by conite; 11-04-19 at 11:01 AM.
    11-04-19 10:39 AM
  6. conite's Avatar
    It's interesting that no one can source financial statements for BlackBerry Licensees with any kind of breakdown, yet somehow we can state that Optiemus only paid a couple of Million $$$ to BlackBerry Ltd. What is your source for these financial statements?
    Optiemus financial statements. They were posted here before. Quarter ending Mar, 2019.

    BlackBerry was supposed to receive a minimum payment of $4.29 million, but only received $1.5 million. Optiemus still believes they overpaid, and want $780k of that $1.5 million back.
    app_Developer likes this.
    11-04-19 10:40 AM
  7. Crusader03's Avatar
    I must have missed that post, can you kindly post the financial statements? I don't believe I'm the only one who might have missed it! Thanks,
    11-04-19 10:44 AM
  8. conite's Avatar
    I must have missed that post, can you kindly post the financial statements? I don't believe I'm the only one who might have missed it! Thanks,
    https://mega.nz/#!wJ4nHTbT!X2vgovju7...mNHIZQg7YP1zEY

    Note 7 on page 4.

    As you can see, BlackBerry barely earns enough to tie their own shoes, let alone swoop down on India to fix everyone's problems - which they likely have no rights to do in the first place.
    11-04-19 10:49 AM
  9. PantherBlitz's Avatar
    My point is that management decisions influenced also handset decisions.... Maybe Optiemus was not that strong as licensee. But since as stated by somebody else the name in the phone is BB, than I would take the necessary steps towards customers to hold up my reputation as BB. In this sense I think Chen and the Board are responsible.
    I see your point. BlackBerry does have a reputation to uphold, but they are between a rock and a hard place in regard to Optiemus. Optiemus is stiffing them for licensing fees that they freely negotiated with BlackBerry. They need to be the ones who should be worried about the morality of not paying their obligations while at the same time sticking it to their customers.

    While the box may have the BlackBerry logo all over it and the customers in India who actually care about OS updates may blame BlackBerry, the players in the supply chain and in other industries are well aware of whom the culprit is.
    elfabio80 and Bob80220 like this.
    11-04-19 10:57 AM
  10. Sigewif's Avatar
    But you're mobile focused. Most car companies or IT managers couldn't care less about updates on an Indian variant on a phone.

    And even with you're handset bias, you STILL bought a Cylance product.

    So, in your estimation, how many disgruntled Optiemus IT customers, will not purchase Cylance who otherwise would have?
    I am not the casual BlackBerry customer. Cylance was not expensive, and I want to support BlackBerry as an investor.
    About 15 years ago Dish Network spammed us on our business fax with ads, (using up our fax paper to do so, which we needed there to receive orders ). It went on for quite a while. I got a bad taste in my mouth for the company (Band name) that they would be so insensitive in their advertising. To this day (even though I think they were bought out) I still have that taste in my mouth and am wary of the brand name. They didn't do anything I experienced to remedy the reputation. There wasn't a press release or such that took up the issue. That would have helped.
    Businesses have a responsibility toward their brand name if they want to have Customer outreach.
    11-04-19 11:00 AM
  11. conite's Avatar
    Businesses have a responsibility toward their brand name if they want to have Customer outreach.
    Assuming the customer bases aren't completely different - which they are.

    And again, you need to do the math. How much does lack of Optiemus updates affect sales to car companies and enterprise IT in the west? You MUST put a figure on it, because the cost to rectify the issue with the handful of Optiemus customers complaining would be significant.
    11-04-19 11:03 AM
  12. Sigewif's Avatar
    Assuming the customer bases aren't completely different - which they are.

    And again, you need to do the math. How much does lack of Optiemus updates affect sales to car companies and enterprise IT in the west? You MUST put a figure on it, because the cost to rectify the issue with the handful of Optiemus customers complaining would be significant.
    Reputations are not as compartmentalized as some think. Especially in 2019 of the internet age. It is still about general reputation.
    11-04-19 11:34 AM
  13. conite's Avatar
    Reputations are not as compartmentalized as some think. Especially in 2019 of the internet age. It is still about general reputation.
    There's still a number somewhere.

    Would you spend $10 million to help one customer?

    In this case it might be $5 million to help 1,000.

    But I still believe BlackBerry does not have the legal authority to intervene. These aren't BlackBerry customers - they may not even know who they are or have any access to them.
    11-04-19 11:42 AM
  14. Sigewif's Avatar
    There's still a number somewhere.

    Would you spend $10 million to help one customer?

    In this case it might be $5 million to help 1,000.

    But I still believe BlackBerry does not have the legal authority to intervene. These aren't BlackBerry customers - they may not even know who they are or have any access to them.
    It depends on how much their reputation is worth to them. For that matter, if they really don't have access to doing this, a clear communique would go a long way. "We regret to inform you that..."
    Maybe their hands really are tied and/or they are still negotiating. In which case that could be the message of communique. But leaving them to flap in the wind doesn't do anyone any good.
    Crusader03 likes this.
    11-04-19 11:58 AM
  15. conite's Avatar
    It depends on how much their reputation is worth to them.
    No, as I keep saying.

    It depends how much their reputation in the handset space impacts their reputation in the IoT/Cylance space.
    11-04-19 12:11 PM
  16. Crusader03's Avatar
    https://mega.nz/#!wJ4nHTbT!X2vgovju7...mNHIZQg7YP1zEY

    Note 7 on page 4.

    As you can see, BlackBerry barely earns enough to tie their own shoes, let alone swoop down on India to fix everyone's problems - which they likely have no rights to do in the first place.
    Thanks, missed this the first time and must have been buried in a thread. However, Brand reputation has been damaged over quite some time before this latest fiasco and this just adds fuel to the fire. It is naive to believe that consumers, potential consumers, shareholders and stakeholders would not be concerned with a Brand's reputation, performance and perception in the Market place! When BlackBerry is in the news, the natural tendency in perception is they were that phone company, a double edged sword when a company reaches an Iconic state and entrenched itself in Popular Culture! The business transition does not wipe out public perception of what BlackBerry was! If the argument is that BlackBerry is no longer in the phone business yet there are BlackBerry branded phones around the world, the public is not as smart or naive as you might think, share prices and investment strategies will do their due diligence on behalf of investors and the BlackBerry Brand and track performance is tarnished and telltale! Facts matter! But alas, refute away!
    Sigewif and Paulelmar18 like this.
    11-04-19 12:46 PM
  17. conite's Avatar
    Thanks, missed this the first time and must have been buried in a thread. However, Brand reputation has been damaged over quite some time before this latest fiasco and this just adds fuel to the fire. It is naive to believe that consumers, potential consumers, shareholders and stakeholders would not be concerned with a Brand's reputation, performance and perception in the Market place! When BlackBerry is in the news, the natural tendency in perception is they were that phone company, a double edged sword when a company reaches an Iconic state and entrenched itself in Popular Culture! The business transition does not wipe out public perception of what BlackBerry was! If the argument is that BlackBerry is no longer in the phone business yet there are BlackBerry branded phones around the world, the public is not as smart or naive as you might think, share prices and investment strategies will do their due diligence on behalf of investors and the BlackBerry Brand and track performance is tarnished and telltale! Facts matter! But alas, refute away!
    Has news of a few disgruntled Optiemus customers made the enterprise IT trade journals? Or ANY legitimate news agency?

    What dollar amount is said impact? How much should BlackBerry spend to fix said impact?

    Pretend it's your job at BlackBerry to make and present the business plan and thus demand the resources to implement it.
    11-04-19 12:50 PM
  18. Sigewif's Avatar
    No, as I keep saying.

    It depends how much their reputation in the handset space impacts their reputation in the IoT/Cylance space.
    Probably more than we realize. It isn't compartmentalized. It is about name perception. In a world of math, graphs, and beakers it would perhaps be different.
    But we live in an age where people have a perception and hear rumors and those rumor go viral. "Oh, isn't that the company that didn't follow up on security for their handsets? How do they then come through with this autonomous automobile?" No one has explained to them in detail, ( like we know here) about details of licensing agreements etc. Same name, so it must be the same company is what they think. Uninformed? Yes. But that is not the customer's fault. That is why astute businesses hire companies to do reputation damage control.
    True story: there was an adulterated food product that is similar to ours. It was imported from China and routed through a 3rd country. Some ended up in our state. Customers were asking about the integrity of our locally sourced products. (Not even the same brand name). Were the customers uninformed? Yes. Was it necessary to address it and communicate the difference? That is also a yes.
    Paulelmar18 likes this.
    11-04-19 12:58 PM
  19. Crusader03's Avatar
    Have news of a few disgruntled Optiemus customers made the enterprise IT trade journals?
    I understand you are a detail oriented person, I would suggest that a more Global view (big picture) to add perspective might help. I would suggest taking a look at the business from 10,000 feet as investors do, only when those stress tests are met will they take a deep dive into the details of any business!
    11-04-19 12:58 PM
  20. conite's Avatar
    Probably more than we realize. It isn't compartmentalized. It is about name perception. In a world of math, graphs, and beakers it would perhaps be different.
    But we live in an age where people have a perception and hear rumors and those rumor go viral. "Oh, isn't that the company that didn't follow up on security for their handsets? How do they then come through with this autonomous automobile?" No one has explained to them in detail, ( like we know here) about details of licensing agreements etc. Same name, so it must be the same company is what they think. Uninformed? Yes. But that is not the customer's fault. That is why astute businesses hire companies to do reputation damage control.
    True story: there was an adulterated food product that is similar to ours. It was imported from China and routed through a 3rd country. Some ended up in our state. Customers were asking about the integrity of our locally sourced products. (Not even the same brand name). Were the customers uninformed? Yes. Was it necessary to address it and communicate the difference? That is also a yes.
    I understand you are a detail oriented person, I would suggest that a more Global view (big picture) to add perspective might help. I would suggest taking a look at the business from 10,000 feet as investors do, only when those stress tests are met will they take a deep dive into the details of any business!
    It doesn't appear I'm going to convince you guys, so I'll let it go.

    But I would imagine that BlackBerry gets plenty of feedback from their IoT / Cylance customers - and even potential future customers in that space - and has been able to accurately gauge any impact their handset licencees' actions may have had. They would know first hand if they had to spend extra dollars doing something about it. Since they aren't, I believe we have our answer.
    11-04-19 01:04 PM
  21. PantherBlitz's Avatar
    I would suggest that a more Global view (big picture) to add perspective might help. I would suggest taking a look at the business from 10,000 feet as investors do
    Part of the big picture is that if BlackBerry were to bail out Optiemus their other partners would expect to get away with pulling the same stunt. It would be almost impossible to enforce any scheduled payment plan if an OEM reneges because sales were lower than they had hoped, as Optiemus has done. This applies to all of their partnerships, not just phone handsets.

    The only reason that BlackBerry attempted to produce a licensed OS is that it has a relatively low risk versus other endeavors that they could pursue. Once they take on an OEM's sales risk the entire business model is blown out of the water.
    Crusader03, Bob80220 and elfabio80 like this.
    11-04-19 01:37 PM
  22. Crusader03's Avatar
    Part of the big picture is that if BlackBerry were to bail out Optiemus their other partners would expect to get away with pulling the same stunt. It would be almost impossible to enforce any scheduled payment plan if an OEM reneges because sales were lower than they had hoped, as Optiemus has done. This applies to all of their partnerships, not just phone handsets.

    The only reason that BlackBerry attempted to produce a licensed OS is that it has a relatively low risk versus other endeavors that they could pursue. Once they take on an OEM's sales risk the entire business model is blown out of the water.
    I do agree with you. Unfortunately I believe BlackBerry is now between a rock and a hard place. The damage is done, they must now somehow mitigate the negative perception in the market place in order to save their fledgling business with an outcome that protects the Brand. I would not want to be sitting on that board today. The New BlackBerry is vulnerable and at risk with any strategy they employ.
    Paulelmar18 likes this.
    11-04-19 01:49 PM
  23. Sigewif's Avatar
    It doesn't appear I'm going to convince you guys, so I'll let it go.

    But I would imagine that BlackBerry gets plenty of feedback from their IoT / Cylance customers - and even potential future customers in that space - and has been able to accurately gauge any impact their handset licencees' actions may have had. They would know first hand if they had to spend extra dollars doing something about it. Since they aren't, I believe we have our answer.
    It seems that my "communique" suggestion was not seen, overlooked, or perhaps ignored. It is about world wide reputation control. A press release could explain for the impacted customers something of the situation. Shouldn't cost that much. If it is unresolved, at least some communication. Or even a communique that they are unable to go into details now because of ongoing negotiations. That would not cost much and would clear the air.
    11-04-19 01:58 PM
  24. conite's Avatar
    It seems that my "communique" suggestion was not seen, overlooked, or perhaps ignored. It is about world wide reputation control. A press release could explain for the impacted customers something of the situation. Shouldn't cost that much. If it is unresolved, at least some communication. Or even a communique that they are unable to go into details now because of ongoing negotiations. That would not cost much and would clear the air.
    That just draws attention to an issue that only affects a limited few.
    11-04-19 01:59 PM
  25. howarmat's Avatar
    I think some of you are just overly dramatic on this non issue. Most people dont have a clue that BB branded phone exist anymore!
    11-04-19 02:09 PM
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