[conite]

Google also did the same things with oems for producing their nexus-pixel lines.

Sure. One outsells the other by 100x. The issue is dividing the overhead over FAR fewer devices, and having comparatively poor economies of scale.

What about my $100 question?

[chain13]

OK. I'll ask you the same question then. If you want to add $100 to the camera, what would you take out to keep the same price?

Even in low volume, camera only won’t take you up to $100 per-unit in mass production. But if you want $100 worth, at least decent camera and SD8xx should be packed. Pixel itself doesn’t own to much % in the android sea if you know.

[conite]

Even in low volume, camera only won’t take you up to $100 per-unit in mass production. Even pixel itself doesn’t own to much % in the android sea.

The number was for argument sake. Fine, say $60 then. What would you eliminate?

BTW, Pixel is a whole other ballgame. Google has many reasons to sell it, and sales isn't the only one. They also contracted the phone to be built for them - the vendors did not pay for the OS or licencing. This is a totally different arrangement and business model.

[chain13]

The number was for argument sake. Fine, say $60 then. What would you eliminate?

BTW, Pixel is a whole other ballgame. Google has many reasons to sell it, and sales isn't the only one. They also contracted the phone to be built for them - the vendors did not pay for the OS or licencing. This is a totally different arrangement and business model.

Why would I? In that price package it should be more add-ons come with the phone. Put on SD8xx, better camera, and 128gb/256gb

[the_boon]

Why would I? In that price package it should be more add-ons come with the phone. Put on SD8xx, better camera, and 128gb/256gb

Do you really feel set-back with the 660? Does it really lag enough to make you want to throw the phone across the room? Does it not serve all your needs well enough?

I can totally understand the camera concern, but enough with the whining for 8xx chipset. 660 is MORE than perfectly capable enough in all scenarios, and yes, even 3D gaming.

Smartphone evolution has stagnated to such a generic and boring state that people lose their minds if a phone uses anything other than the latest and greatest from Qualcomm. Enough. How about looking at the whole package? The combination of software and hardware features to bring a unique experience in such a boring Android world?

Again, yes, TCL should focus resources on camera, OIS is a must on KEY3, all of that good stuff.

While people are quick to say "but OnePlus 6 costs cheaper than K2 and has the latest processor bla bla" well it's not gonna get you an experience any different than the 5T or the 5 from last year, same repetitive cycle. To me, their slogan is more like
"The speed (we make you think) you need"

It's funny, every OEM seems to want to stand out from the pack yet offer the same form factor and features as all the others.

[hemang sarkar]

Comparing to other $650 devices is irrelevant. Remove the licencing fee, the OS fee, the keyboard production and R&D fee, the low-volume premium, and you are now comparing to a $250-300 phone.

But I'm not arguing that it's an awesome camera - only that it's not "garbage".

So you are saying that even when people are paying $650 for the phone, they should compare the camera to the camera on a $250-300 phone?

Maybe people are calling it 'garbage' for the price they are paying.

[Vistaus]

My KEY2 can't brew tea, so how smart is "smart"?

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that you shouldn't lean too hard on the word "smart".

Do you think that if you lined up 100 reasonable people, that 1 of them would expect a phone to brew tea?[/QUOTE]

I just meant that what's 'smart' to you doesn't have to be 'smart' for someone else.

[chain13]

Do you really feel set-back with the 660? Does it really lag enough to make you want to throw the phone across the room? Does it not serve all your needs well enough?

I can totally understand the camera concern, but enough with the whining for 8xx chipset. 660 is MORE than perfectly capable enough in all scenarios, and yes, even 3D gaming.

Smartphone evolution has stagnated to such a generic and boring state that people lose their minds if a phone uses anything other than the latest and greatest from Qualcomm. Enough. How about looking at the whole package? The combination of software and hardware features to bring a unique experience in such a boring Android world?

Again, yes, TCL should focus resources on camera, OIS is a must on KEY3, all of that good stuff.

While people are quick to say "but OnePlus 6 costs cheaper than K2 and has the latest processor bla bla" well it's not gonna get you an experience any different than the 5T or the 5 from last year, same repetitive cycle. To me, their slogan is more like
"The speed (we make you think) you need"

It's funny, every OEM seems to want to stand out from the pack yet offer the same form factor and features as all the others.

My point is to show conite the compromises for the price. He pointed out production cost by including all license things and each component pricing.

[destiny.seeker]

OK. I'll ask you the same question then. If you want to add $100 to the camera, what would you take out to keep the same price?

I want BlackBerry to make the same spec and quality phone as an one plus 6 and to slap pkb on top of it with $100 premium for keyboard and licensing fee.

These two are only extra cost that BlackBerry (or tcl) has to pay more than other chinese manufacturers. So it is reasonable to compare the price of key2 to other chinese manufacturers, not to samsungs'.

Samsung actually put their premium as being the most reliable android device manufacturer on top of the actual cost of device. So they have much bigger margin than other chinese manufacturers. (Apple even has much higher margin than samsung as being the only ios device manufacturer Ouch)

Thats why how chinese manufacturers can come up with similarly specd phones as samsungs at much lower price point. Tcl should have done the same.

As a consumer, I do not want a too complicated equation to justify my purchase. $100-150 more for pkb is the good and simple way to compell (persuade) most average consumers. ( thats what note series are doing). Not like... pay $150 more for pkb, and then we gonna take out good camera for our profit, and we gonna also reuse old lcd panel from last year for the same reason, and wait! We need to subtract these features as well to justify the price point for us. bla... bla... bla.. This is how to fail sales.

[the_boon]

My point is to show conite the compromises for the price. He pointed out production cost by including all license things and each component pricing.

And let's say the KEY3 has OIS on both cameras, a better selfie cam and better camera software but doesn't have capacitive keyboard to compensate costs, would people here then whine about that?

[Fred Wu]

And let's say the KEY3 has OIS on both cameras, a better selfie cam and better camera software but doesn't have capacitive keyboard to compensate costs, would people here then whine about that?

This is not consumers job to figure what's their cost model is. It is TCL's job to figure out how to make a competing device for consumers. As someone has pointed out already, we don't care how small margin it is to TCL. They need to figure out the way, especially they intend to gain more market shares, not us to compromise.

We have more choices than they have, and majority of the world can work on a non-pkb device as efficient as on a pkb. So either make it better or leave the business for good.

[the_boon]

This is not consumers job to figure what's their cost model is. It is TCL's job to figure out how to make a competing device for consumers. As someone has pointed out already, we don't care how small margin it is to TCL. They need to figure out the way, especially they intend to gain more market shares, not us to compromise.

We have more choices than they have, and majority of the world can work on a non-pkb device as efficient as on a pkb. So either make it better or leave the business for good.

Since so far the camera seems to be the main disappointment with this device, and since it's so damn important for users to have near Pixel like quality, then for KEY3 maybe they should strip "useless gimmick" features if it means having a "up-to-par" camera

[conite]

I want BlackBerry to make the same spec and quality phone as an one plus 6 and to slap pkb on top of it with $100 premium for keyboard and licensing fee.

That will never happen, so you're wasting your time.

[chain13]

While people are quick to say "but OnePlus 6 costs cheaper than K2 and has the latest processor bla bla" well it's not gonna get you an experience any different than the 5T or the 5 from last year, same repetitive cycle. To me, their slogan is more like
"The speed (we make you think) you need"

How much do you think that pkb cost actually?
Asus has released flagship 5Z with 2k display, SD845, 6/128GB for 450$. I would like to put your pkb on that price, let say it’s $100, so the price will be 550$. And for that add in, I will use smaller screen with lower resolution that will reduce estimately 50$ less. So the price will be at least $500 (still rocking 845 and 6/128GB). It’s just raw stupid math, in mass production the cost could be cheaper than that.

[conite]

This is not consumers job to figure what's their cost model is. It is TCL's job to figure out how to make a competing device for consumers.

But it is competitive. I'm getting one, and many more are too. As long as a million or two others put a high value on a pkb, BBMo will have achieved their required ROI.

[conite]

My point is to show conite the compromises for the price. He pointed out production cost by including all license things and each component pricing.

We all understand the compromises for the price. The price simply is what it is, and hopefully it's enough for BBMo to achieve its ROI, otherwise they won't bother anymore.

[conite]

Why would I? In that price package it should be more add-ons come with the phone. Put on SD8xx, better camera, and 128gb/256gb

Well then, you might as well say goodbye to the pkb, because TCL could never construct such a thing at that price. There are just too many custom, low-volume components.

[Fred Wu]

We all understand the compromises for the price. The price simply is what it is, and hopefully it's enough for BBMo to achieve its ROI, otherwise they won't bother anymore.

Hope they do not count the returned units as part of sales volume.

In China this time, you cannot return the defected ones if the phone was SIM activated. I think this information was unknown to the rest people here.

So that's how BBM is doing business at the moment.

[tazcubed]

So, I would say that the camera is something Blackberry/TCL will need to improve on the Key3. Still pictures are okay, but far from high quality, and frankly video is unusable - far too jittery and too muddled. I would prefer to be able to actually use it for pictures on the go as most people do with smartphones. It's not about it being perfect, but it should at least be reasonable. Yes, I could bring a dSLR, but then again how many people bring all their belongings with them when leaving the house every morning. I'll be curious to see how many people forget their umbrellas and raincoats today.

[valer466]

It’s all about the learning curve folks. Everybody got better over the years and now Android isn’t a “poor people’s” choice as was the argument given back in the day for those who didn’t buy an iPhone.

Whoever is in charge of the post processing software in this camera needs their own time too. I assume it’s BlackBerry Canada itself and not TCL guys, since the OS is signed off in Waterloo too.

We’re holding the camera out against its competitors who’ve had a decade and more to improve year after year. Sure it’s costs a good dollar to buy, but time factor also needs to be considered. Just a year since TCL began.

[conite]

It’s all about the learning curve folks. Everybody got better over the years and now Android isn’t a “poor people’s” choice as was the argument given back in the day for those who didn’t buy an iPhone.

Whoever is in charge of the post processing software in this camera needs their own time too. I assume it’s BlackBerry Canada itself and not TCL guys, since the OS is signed off in Waterloo too.

We’re holding the camera out against its competitors who’ve had a decade and more to improve year after year. Sure it’s costs a good dollar to buy, but time factor also needs to be considered. Just a year since TCL began.

Camera and camera software is by TCL.

[Bee Gee]

This is not consumers job to figure what's their cost model is. It is TCL's job to figure out how to make a competing device for consumers. As someone has pointed out already, we don't care how small margin it is to TCL. They need to figure out the way, especially they intend to gain more market shares, not us to compromise.

We have more choices than they have, and majority of the world can work on a non-pkb device as efficient as on a pkb. So either make it better or leave the business for good.

Couldn’t have said it better. It is not the consumer’s job to analyze economics of scale, licensing fees, etc, etc. It IS the manufacturer’s job to make an appealing, competitive product at a price consumers are willing to pay. If they cannot do so, time to turn the lights out.

Hope everyone votes with their wallets with respect to key2. The price for such mediocre (terrible in the case of the camera) hardware is ridiculous. I see amazon and Best Buy are no longer stocking it. Even CBK felt the need to make a plea video to include essential features like wireless charging in the key3.

[S2G-Unit]

This is not consumers job to figure what's their cost model is. It is TCL's job to figure out how to make a competing device for consumers. As someone has pointed out already, we don't care how small margin it is to TCL. They need to figure out the way, especially they intend to gain more market shares, not us to compromise.

We have more choices than they have, and majority of the world can work on a non-pkb device as efficient as on a pkb. So either make it better or leave the business for good.

Thank you! The world has moved on & enjoyed their PKB's they are not going back to PKB. Definitely not at 650$, with a poor screen ( can't see in bright sunlight), crap camera.
It's TCL's job to price the phone more competitively. I don't care what hoops they need to jump through to provide me with a product at a reasonable price.

[conite]

It is not the consumer’s job to analyze economics of scale, licensing fees, etc, etc.

It's TCL's job to price the phone more competitively. I don't care what hoops they need to jump through to provide me with a product at a reasonable price.

You don't need to know/care about the hoops. You only need to know that $650 is what it costs TCL to bring this device to market. Buy it or don't. If enough people do, they will hang around. Simple.

[iHadLastBB]

Camera and camera software is by TCL.

So they should admit that they are terrible at this and outsource software and hardware from others