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01-12-20 12:00 PM
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  1. Sigewif's Avatar
    All TCL would need to do to create excitement and renewed enthusiasm would be to tell us that a new device is, in fact, coming. The fact that they haven't speaks volumes.

    I'm the biggest BlackBerry-brand fan around, but at some point reality sets in.
    Wait, I think it is you that is speaking volumes...
    01-08-20 01:57 AM
  2. PantherBlitz's Avatar
    It's not the smartphone "game changer" that LTE was. Most users would not even know the difference in few MS of latency, and sure are not going to need a maxed out download speed that's possible (use your whole months "Unlimited" allotment in a day). Business, Industry and maybe some prosumers will be able to make use of it...

    But it's not going to really be a big deal, I bet by the time TCL is selling these phones, that other will be using the new Qualcomm chips as well. 5G won't be real... till Apple invents it (or finds a real use for it that matters to consumers).
    My thoughts, too. It really won't change how users use their smartphones. I feel that 5G will have its biggest impact by becoming a competitor to ISPs or by bringing real broadband to areas that don't have it.
    Mecca EL likes this.
    01-08-20 04:13 AM
  3. Emaderton3's Avatar
    Blackberry is still part of their device brands and they still sell the Blackberry Key 2 and Key 2LE why wouldn't they have them there? Apple still has XR, X, iPhone 8's available for sale. The XR was even on demo at an Apple store here in Sacramento CA.

    Do you have official word from TCL as to the agreement with BlackBerry Ltd and what they are doing? Didn't BlackBerry Mobile say last year there would be no new devices until 2020? Still plenty of time and shows to present a new one or not.
    I agree with you. It is premature to emphatically insist that BlackBerry Mobile is "dead" "done" and "hollow" and "dumping" and "running out the clock" to use some of the terms. It may not be meant this way, but it comes across as though they find some pleasure and glee at tearing them down. Negatively feeds on itself. Some of BlackBerry Mobile's struggles have to do with the negative vibe that is going out. Why not let things play out and hope for good outcome, or simply "let it be". Eventually time will pass and the contract will either be renewed or not renewed. They will either produce a new BlackBerry phone or they won't.[/QUOTE]Doesn't a new device show up approximately 6 months or so ahead of time for approval in the US? And there is nothing. That is also a good indication that nothing is coming. Conite can correct me on the timing for approval, but it is significant and has been brought up before.
    01-08-20 06:42 AM
  4. conite's Avatar
    Doesn't a new device show up approximately 6 months or so ahead of time for approval in the US? And there is nothing. That is also a good indication that nothing is coming. Conite can correct me on the timing for approval, but it is significant and has been brought up before.
    BBJ100 Monet appeared some time ago within a BlackBerry app tear-down. But nothing has ever made it to any certification body since. So it would appear something was om the table, but got shelved.
    01-08-20 07:15 AM
  5. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Blackberry is still part of their device brands and they still sell the Blackberry Key 2 and Key 2LE why wouldn't they have them there? Apple still has XR, X, iPhone 8's available for sale. The XR was even on demo at an Apple store here in Sacramento CA.

    Do you have official word from TCL as to the agreement with BlackBerry Ltd and what they are doing? Didn't BlackBerry Mobile say last year there would be no new devices until 2020? Still plenty of time and shows to present a new one or not.
    Doesn't a new device show up approximately 6 months or so ahead of time for approval in the US? And there is nothing. That is also a good indication that nothing is coming. Conite can correct me on the timing for approval, but it is significant and has been brought up before.
    I picked those words intentionally because it’s what BBMo is doing with respect to it’s current inventory without the volumes and discounts.

    The Key2 and Key2 LE demand isn’t really price sensitive as compared to VKB since it has no PKB competition. TCL could even release white edition and blue edition as I’ve joked about earlier.

    If that happened it wouldn’t change anything either. Key2 specs are two generations behind and then would be almost three generations behind. We’ll be seeing Android 11 beta soon.

    This reminds me of when BB10 was being shutdown in the early stages after the release of the PRIV and blaming CB members for predicting the inevitable demise of BB10 as if our comments were the reason it was happening.

    The problem for BB10 and BBAndroid was simply that people outside the fan base weren’t buying the BlackBerry hardware.
    Last edited by Chuck Finley69; 01-08-20 at 07:44 AM.
    01-08-20 07:29 AM
  6. prplhze2000's Avatar
    I'm wondering if the problem isn't the high price BlackBerry charges for licensing. makes phone uncompetitive.
    elfabio80 and Mecca EL like this.
    01-08-20 07:43 AM
  7. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I'm wondering if the problem isn't the high price BlackBerry charges for licensing. makes phone uncompetitive.
    The price isn’t high, it’s simply what needs to be charged for BlackBerry Limited to make enough profit to be worthwhile. It’s up to BlackBerry Mobile to produce and sell enough devices to be $ amount per device that’s reasonable. There isn’t enough demand.
    01-08-20 07:48 AM
  8. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I'm wondering if the problem isn't the high price BlackBerry charges for licensing. makes phone uncompetitive.
    If that was the only issue, and there was room for BlackBerry to lower the fees.... I expect they would have, if it meant the difference in some profit and no profit. But cutting the price alone probably would not have really changed things - and at these levels I doubt BlackBerry was raking in the profits.
    01-08-20 08:11 AM
  9. cyberdoggie's Avatar
    Not to mention Nokia outsources manufacturing to Foxconn - although final assembly is done in Vietnam.
    Quite something else than a Chinese manufacturer under legal obligation to cooperate with the Communist Party, including by providing access to data on the devices.
    whatnow00 likes this.
    01-08-20 08:47 AM
  10. kyamil010's Avatar
    can you please specify? i only saw unihertz titan, i mean qweerty only, no communicators, thanks
    01-08-20 12:53 PM
  11. conite's Avatar
    can you please specify? i only saw unihertz titan, i mean qweerty only, no communicators, thanks
    Unihertz also has the Atom and the Jelly.
    01-08-20 01:09 PM
  12. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    Well isn't that just a slap in the face? Or so they say. I mean a TCL launch with no BB payload and no real target, whose storage shed will this do damage to?
    (ps can we get a BB10 Launcher already scrubbed and shiny back into action?)
    01-08-20 01:41 PM
  13. Bbnivende's Avatar
    The price isn’t high, it’s simply what needs to be charged for BlackBerry Limited to make enough profit to be worthwhile. It’s up to BlackBerry Mobile to produce and sell enough devices to be $ amount per device that’s reasonable. There isn’t enough demand.
    There is zero evidence that BlackBerry was not making a profit from their TCL agreement. As late as Dec 2018 Chen was bragging about the Royalties. The price for the updates is probably cost plus.

    I agree though that PKB sales were not depressed because of BlackBerry’s take being too high.

    The problem seemed to arise with respect to the update fees and TCL’s own costs to develop PKB hardware that might be more modern or better.

    Perhaps both have agreed that their strategic interested no longer can be reconciled. You would like to think that BlackBerry might like to secure all of those TV’s etc. Seems to have lost a very big opportunity. TCL is obviously better off now than they were.

    I do not see why TCL is being painted as the bad guy here. Politics?
    Paulelmar18 likes this.
    01-08-20 02:26 PM
  14. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    There is zero evidence that BlackBerry was not making a profit from their TCL agreement. As late as Dec 2018 Chen was bragging about the Royalties. The price for the updates is probably cost plus.

    I agree though that PKB sales were not depressed because of BlackBerry’s take being too high.

    The problem seemed to arise with respect to the update fees and TCL’s own costs to develop PKB hardware that might be more modern or better.

    Perhaps both have agreed that their strategic interested no longer can be reconciled. You would like to think that BlackBerry might like to secure all of those TV’s etc. Seems to have lost a very big opportunity. TCL is obviously better off now than they were.

    I do not see why TCL is being painted as the bad guy here. Politics?
    At million devices with KEYone, I suspect Chen was happy if that number kept growing. I’d guess that minimum for viability on BBL side was 500k devices @ $50USD per device. That’s what translated into about $150 BBTax at retail.

    I suspect, had TCL and other licensees sold 3 million devices, it would have still been under some minimum volume charge for BBL and dropped cost per device to $15-20USD per device translated into a $50USD premium at retail.

    The problem simply is that not enough PKB demand to cover initial requirements. That’s not blaming the licensees. That’s just business that’s not going to be worth BBL time and losing money.
    01-08-20 02:37 PM
  15. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    There is zero evidence that BlackBerry was not making a profit from their TCL agreement. As late as Dec 2018 Chen was bragging about the Royalties. The price for the updates is probably cost plus.

    I agree though that PKB sales were not depressed because of BlackBerry’s take being too high.

    The problem seemed to arise with respect to the update fees and TCL’s own costs to develop PKB hardware that might be more modern or better.

    Perhaps both have agreed that their strategic interested no longer can be reconciled. You would like to think that BlackBerry might like to secure all of those TV’s etc. Seems to have lost a very big opportunity. TCL is obviously better off now than they were.

    I do not see why TCL is being painted as the bad guy here. Politics?
    I don't remember Chen bragging about phone royalties last Dec or really ever.... but even if he was, it was just general smoke like he always puts out. He has done a great job with reorganization, but he has fallen way short on delivering on most of his "bragging". As the revenues and share price can attest too. Without buying Cylance last year... where would they be?

    TCL misjudged the value of BlackBerry and it's importance to Enterprise... but at least BlackBerry PKB fans got a few solid devices that should get them to 2021.

    I don't think there is a bad guy..... BlackBerry offered something, and TCL tired to make it work.
    01-08-20 02:40 PM
  16. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I don't remember Chen bragging about phone royalties last Dec or really ever.... but even if he was, it was just general smoke like he always puts out. He has done a great job with reorganization, but he has fallen way short on delivering on most of his "bragging". As the revenues and share price can attest too. Without buying Cylance last year... where would they be?

    TCL misjudged the value of BlackBerry and it's importance to Enterprise... but at least BlackBerry PKB fans got a few solid devices that should get them to 2021.

    I don't think there is a bad guy..... BlackBerry offered something, and TCL tired to make it work.
    Maybe not bragging but certainly not telling the whole truth in late Dec 2018. A spin,,,

    The company’s CEO told BNN Bloomberg in an interview Thursday that revenue from its iconic handset devices was zero in the quarter that ended Nov. 30.
    “There was one quarter in the last three that was low - like $5 million or something of that sort… This is the quarter where we had zero,” John Chen told BNN Bloomberg.
    However, he clarified that the revenue hasn’t dried up, but has simply been re-directed into the company’s licensing categories, since it has outsourced production of its devices amid the company’s refocused efforts on software.

    “Everybody needs to know: BlackBerry will still have handsets, but we’re going to get the handset revenue through royalties because we have licensed both some of our technologies, our operating systems, as well as our brand to a number of OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) out there,” he said. “They will be building BlackBerry phones and they will be responsible for addressing the market that way.”
    “When they sell those phones, I’ll get the royalties on that, as arranged. We expect to continue in the phone business, but not taking the hardware.”
    Related
    01-08-20 02:57 PM
  17. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Maybe not bragging but certainly not telling the whole truth in late Dec 2018. A spin,,,

    The company’s CEO told BNN Bloomberg in an interview Thursday that revenue from its iconic handset devices was zero in the quarter that ended Nov. 30.
    “There was one quarter in the last three that was low - like $5 million or something of that sort… This is the quarter where we had zero,” John Chen told BNN Bloomberg.
    However, he clarified that the revenue hasn’t dried up, but has simply been re-directed into the company’s licensing categories, since it has outsourced production of its devices amid the company’s refocused efforts on software.

    “Everybody needs to know: BlackBerry will still have handsets, but we’re going to get the handset revenue through royalties because we have licensed both some of our technologies, our operating systems, as well as our brand to a number of OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) out there,” he said. “They will be building BlackBerry phones and they will be responsible for addressing the market that way.”
    “When they sell those phones, I’ll get the royalties on that, as arranged. We expect to continue in the phone business, but not taking the hardware.”
    Related
    He did his job as CEO being optimistic. What else would you expect him to say?
    01-08-20 03:08 PM
  18. Sigewif's Avatar
    TCL's marketing has been absolutely abysmal so there is no way to know whether there was no demand. In the mean time their exec Stefan Streit holds forth as if he is a marketing guru. I have watched this very carefully. When Canadians didn't even get access to the red KEY2 that was a red flag, so to speak, that their marketing dept was clueless. Surely they would have at least listened to CBK who, by the way was posting photos of it (from Canada) on Instagram to promote it.
    PS I don't know if they ever were made available in Canada.
    bb9900user2018 and whatnow00 like this.
    01-08-20 03:12 PM
  19. conite's Avatar
    TCL's marketing has been absolutely abysmal so there is no way to know whether there was no demand. In the mean time their exec Stefan Streit holds forth as if he is a marketing guru. I have watched this very carefully. When Canadians didn't even get access to the red KEY2 that was a red flag, so to speak, that their marketing dept was clueless. Surely they would have at least listened to CBK who, by the way was posting photos of it (from Canada) on Instagram to promote it.
    PS I don't know if they ever were made available in Canada.
    They pretty much sold them all, so why did they need to bring it to more markets that would have just cost them more to do?

    Production was long over before the Reds were released - it was just repurposed existing inventory.
    01-08-20 03:42 PM
  20. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    The business model and agreement was based on "10s of millions of devices" which was supposed to include PKB and slabs. Once BBMo couldn't convince distributors to carry a BlackBerry slab, it was going to take strong PKB growth to justify the partnership. The KEY2/KEY2 LE combination couldn't deliver the target growth that was needed.

    Game over.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    01-08-20 05:19 PM
  21. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    TCL's marketing has been absolutely abysmal so there is no way to know whether there was no demand. In the mean time their exec Stefan Streit holds forth as if he is a marketing guru. I have watched this very carefully. When Canadians didn't even get access to the red KEY2 that was a red flag, so to speak, that their marketing dept was clueless. Surely they would have at least listened to CBK who, by the way was posting photos of it (from Canada) on Instagram to promote it.
    PS I don't know if they ever were made available in Canada.
    If you think marketing isn’t sufficient, think for a minute, how much you’d allocate based on current sales KEYone versus Key2 for instance. Let’s say $10 million was spent on KEYone, that’s about $15 per device sold. On Key2 estimated sales that would be about $100-120 per device. What does $10 million buy you in marketing for such a niche device with BB name being such a negative brand image within industry? Additionally, without carrier support?

    The whole licensing deal collapsed when VZW refused the KEYone at introduction. Personally, I don’t think BBMo and TCL stood a chance when the carrier industry saw that all before the whole screen pop issue.
    01-08-20 05:44 PM
  22. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    If you think marketing isn’t sufficient, think for a minute, how much you’d allocate based on current sales KEYone versus Key2 for instance. Let’s say $10 million was spent on KEYone, that’s about $15 per device sold. On Key2 estimated sales that would be about $100-120 per device.
    BBMo sold 660,000 devices in 2017, including the K1, Motion, and the remaining DTEK inventory. Most of the sales were the K1. Let's call it 500k, which is close enough for this discussion. At $10M for marketing (which covers much more than just ads, as you know), that's already $20 per phone at the OEM level. Ouch!

    In 2018, BBMo sold 330k devices, most of which were K2s and K2LEs, with a healthy number of K1s, which STILL haven't all sold through yet, even though they are 2.5 years old. Let's say the K2s and K2LEs total 250k devices between them. Assuming you were treating them the same and advertising them together, which is unusual, you are still at $40 per phone. If you spent $10M on each model separately, as is the norm, now you are at $80 per phone! Those are pretty accurate numbers - not perfect, but close.

    When you consider that this is added to the the actual production cost of the phones (parts, manufacturing, design, engineering, testing, certification), then BBs licensing fees on top of everything, and that TCL is selling these phones to distributors for less than $250 total, it just looks even more dismal. Apple likely spends less than $5 per phone on total marketing.

    And as you mentioned, $10M a year for global marketing is a drop in the bucket, and has to overcome people's hesitation about the PKB and overall design PLUS the negative brand image that BB has in the market.

    The financial realities are indeed sobering.
    John Albert and cyberdoggie like this.
    01-08-20 08:01 PM
  23. Sigewif's Avatar
    They pretty much sold them all, so why did they need to bring it to more markets that would have just cost them more to do?

    Production was long over before the Reds were released - it was just repurposed existing inventory.
    The whole marketing has been abysmal right from the start. You know it and I know it. No one I know was aware of them except when I have told them including my Canadian friends who have had BlackBerrys in the past. The red key2 sales comment was just an afterthought. They were selling them in the US right across the boarder so why not Canada, of all places. They are still selling them in Europe. My point is they did not understand where their most loyal customer base is. "Why did they need to bring it to more markets" you say. If they understood and wanted to foster interest and enthusiasm, they would have brought them there first. OK repurposed parts. But they have not been in tune with what the BlackBerry community really was. And by the way, CB was not the only part of that community.
    01-08-20 08:10 PM
  24. Sigewif's Avatar
    BBMo sold 660,000 devices in 2017, including the K1, Motion, and the remaining DTEK inventory. Most of the sales were the K1. Let's call it 500k, which is close enough for this discussion. At $10M for marketing (which covers much more than just ads, as you know), that's already $20 per phone at the OEM level. Ouch!

    In 2018, BBMo sold 330k devices, most of which were K2s and K2LEs, with a healthy number of K1s, which STILL haven't all sold through yet, even though they are 2.5 years old. Let's say the K2s and K2LEs total 250k devices between them. Assuming you were treating them the same and advertising them together, which is unusual, you are still at $40 per phone. If you spent $10M on each model separately, as is the norm, now you are at $80 per phone! Those are pretty accurate numbers - not perfect, but close.

    When you consider that this is added to the the actual production cost of the phones (parts, manufacturing, design, engineering, testing, certification), then BBs licensing fees on top of everything, and that TCL is selling these phones to distributors for less than $250 total, it just looks even more dismal. Apple likely spends less than $5 per phone on total marketing.

    And as you mentioned, $10M a year for global marketing is a drop in the bucket, and has to overcome people's hesitation about the PKB and overall design PLUS the negative brand image that BB has in the market.

    The financial realities are indeed sobering.
    How can they sell a pkb devise to people who don't know it exists. It is being sold online or it is in a store in a locked drawer with the demo device not set out. You are never going to find customers, even former pkb users that way. Just abysmal. This was from very early on.
    01-08-20 08:15 PM
  25. Sigewif's Avatar
    If you think marketing isn’t sufficient, think for a minute, how much you’d allocate based on current sales KEYone versus Key2 for instance. Let’s say $10 million was spent on KEYone, that’s about $15 per device sold. On Key2 estimated sales that would be about $100-120 per device. What does $10 million buy you in marketing for such a niche device with BB name being such a negative brand image within industry? Additionally, without carrier support?

    The whole licensing deal collapsed when VZW refused the KEYone at introduction. Personally, I don’t think BBMo and TCL stood a chance when the carrier industry saw that all before the whole screen pop issue.
    I think they didn't know how to market them. Lots of $$ for marketing does not necessarily translate into good marketing. If there is no passion then there will be mediocre results.
    01-08-20 08:20 PM
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