01-05-21 11:12 PM
34 12
tools
  1. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    If they are using midgrade processors and midgrade displays.... do you really think they are going to use the highest quality components for the PKB?

    Maybe they should, might have saved them on warranty claims and negative reviews. But in the end, moving parts fail. You might hit the power button or volume buttons a dozen times a day. But the spacebar, might be in the hundred.... sure it's going to fail long before the seldom used power button. Goes back to why some OEMs chose to end all those moving parts on their devices for the non-moving VKB (well as long as you aren't using something silly like SurePress).

    People's expatiations just don't line up with the reality of where the PKB market is today.
    whatnow00 likes this.
    01-05-21 12:54 PM
  2. the_boon's Avatar
    If they are using midgrade processors and midgrade displays.... do you really think they are going to use the highest quality components for the PKB?

    Maybe they should, might have saved them on warranty claims and negative reviews. But in the end, moving parts fail. You might hit the power button or volume buttons a dozen times a day. But the spacebar, might be in the hundred.... sure it's going to fail long before the seldom used power button. Goes back to why some OEMs chose to end all those moving parts on their devices for the non-moving VKB (well as long as you aren't using something silly like SurePress).

    People's expatiations just don't line up with the reality of where the PKB market is today.
    I don't agree with this. Ask @idssteve about his experiences pounding on a 9900 keyboard until the paint wore off completely, and each key still inputting perfectly after that.

    Buttons are old tech which has been perfected already, and it's perfectly doable to have a keyboard device whose software/processor become outdated far before any single key begins failing in the slightest.

    The KEY2 spacebar could have been better engineered for the 2018 units, that's all. Choosing to place the fingerprint sensor on the side of the phone would have been just as convenient for the user while would avoiding all of this...but here we are.

    Anyway, at least there are solutions such as: Warranty support, spare keyboards, compressed air tricks, pressing it on the side, etc etc.

    I'm still extremely grateful that the KEY2 exists despite my frustration regarding these issues.

    The proof of that is that my sim card always went back to it from whatever slab I tried in the past two years, which include: Galaxy S8 and S8+ with their keyboard cover, Pixel 2 XL & 3 & 3a, Galaxy S10e, S10+, Note 10, OnePlus 6, iPhone SE with Typo keyboard...
    Last edited by the_boon; 01-05-21 at 02:32 PM.
    01-05-21 01:30 PM
  3. idssteve's Avatar
    Well, PKB does introduce additional potential reliability vulnerabilities. Not that VKB is totally without vulnerabilities. We had a crew in a VERY low humidity environment some years back. Their touch screens were pretty frustrating, I heard.

    RIM had advanced PKB to an exquisite art form by the Bold series. Especially 9900 & 9650. Can't count how many 9900 KBs I've swapped over the years. Under 5 minutes each time. Less than $10. Almost always due to paint wear. A purely cosmetic consideration since I NEVER look at the thing while typing. Couldn't care less if any keys had ANY paint on them. Lol. Other than preparation for vip meetings, etc.

    In fact, watching my thumb type this induces a sort of vertigo. Actually slowing me down. Actually inducing errors! Sorta like watching your own tongue while speaking? If that makes sense? Just had to correct a typo... Ug...

    How do ppl LOOK at these things while typing? Do they look at the KB? Do they look at the words on the screen?? Both??? My eyes are already fatigued. 3 typos in three sentences! !!
    Such self induced misery! Lol.

    How many billions of pages of typed input has been produced on desktop & laptop PKB over this past half century? Wear and failure DOES happen but... Enough to justify the compromises suffered without pkb? All depends on use case.

    SOME of us type a lot. Some don't type at all. Expecting one tool design to ubiquitously satisfy all 7+ Billion of Earth's human individuals seems likely to produce compromised compromises, at best. imo.

    9900 proves that a WELL designed PKB shouldn't suffer much unreliability. Nor should repair prove insufferable. Too bad so much of RIM's fabulous expertise got left behind...
    01-05-21 06:01 PM
  4. the_boon's Avatar
    Well, PKB does introduce additional potential reliability vulnerabilities. Not that VKB is totally without vulnerabilities. We had a crew in a VERY low humidity environment some years back. Their touch screens were pretty frustrating, I heard.

    RIM had advanced PKB to an exquisite art form by the Bold series. Especially 9900 & 9650. Can't count how many 9900 KBs I've swapped over the years. Under 5 minutes each time. Less than $10. Almost always due to paint wear. A purely cosmetic consideration since I NEVER look at the thing while typing. Couldn't care less if any keys had ANY paint on them. Lol. Other than preparation for vip meetings, etc.

    In fact, watching my thumb type this induces a sort of vertigo. Actually slowing me down. Actually inducing errors! Sorta like watching your own tongue while speaking? If that makes sense? Just had to correct a typo... Ug...

    How do ppl LOOK at these things while typing? Do they look at the KB? Do they look at the words on the screen?? Both??? My eyes are already fatigued. 3 typos in three sentences! !!
    Such self induced misery! Lol.

    How many billions of pages of typed input has been produced on desktop & laptop PKB over this past half century? Wear and failure DOES happen but... Enough to justify the compromises suffered without pkb? All depends on use case.

    SOME of us type a lot. Some don't type at all. Expecting one tool design to ubiquitously satisfy all 7+ Billion of Earth's human individuals seems likely to produce compromised compromises, at best. imo.

    9900 proves that a WELL designed PKB shouldn't suffer much unreliability. Nor should repair prove insufferable. Too bad so much of RIM's fabulous expertise got left behind...
    Basically, you replaced your 9900 keyboards for cosmetic reasons, not functional. The physical button in general is old tech that has long ago been perfected. It's just that when you integrate something more complex such as a fingerprint sensor within said simple physical, then it might be a different animal.

    But then, Samsung did this just fine on their S10e whose power button is the fingerprint sensor at the same time.
    01-05-21 07:16 PM
  5. idssteve's Avatar
    Basically, you replaced your 9900 keyboards for cosmetic reasons, not functional. The physical button in general is old tech that has long ago been perfected. It's just that when you integrate something more complex such as a fingerprint sensor within said simple physical, then it might be a different animal.

    But then, Samsung did this just fine on their S10e whose power button is the fingerprint sensor at the same time.
    Yep. Mostly cosmetic. Also physical damage. Including one several story tumble from scaffolding. Hard hat area... Lol. Also another crunch under a skid steer. Keys fell out on both occasions. Replacing the KB took about 1/3 of the time that it took to replace the broken screen.

    Actual function degradation due to wear has been nearly non-existent. In fact, I really like the key feel about the time paint starts wearing thru. There is a "break in" period.

    Just a shame that K series didn't lean on Bold experience better. My LE fails to register spacebar input irritatingly frequently. Since I don't look while typing, missed spaces must be proofed and edited subsequently. Since we don't enjoy a trackpad to aid editing, the frustration frequently sends me back to Agent99 when getting the job done becomes critical.

    Other times, spacebar behaves fine. Not sure why. Seems to work more reliably if I train spacebar presses toward an edge instead of center. Maybe an issue related to the key's width? Not sure how key parallelism is handled on K spacebar. ?

    I'd, personally, prefer fingerprint sensor combined with trackpad in a toolbelt...
    01-05-21 08:03 PM
  6. the_boon's Avatar
    Yep. Mostly cosmetic. Also physical damage. Including one several story tumble from scaffolding. Hard hat area... Lol. Also another crunch under a skid steer. Keys fell out on both occasions. Replacing the KB took about 1/3 of the time that it took to replace the broken screen.

    Actual function degradation due to wear has been nearly non-existent. In fact, I really like the key feel about the time paint starts wearing thru. There is a "break in" period.

    Just a shame that K series didn't lean on Bold experience better. My LE fails to register spacebar input irritatingly frequently. Since I don't look while typing, missed spaces must be proofed and edited subsequently. Since we don't enjoy a trackpad to aid editing, the frustration frequently sends me back to Agent99 when getting the job done becomes critical.

    Other times, spacebar behaves fine. Not sure why. Seems to work more reliably if I train spacebar presses toward an edge instead of center. Maybe an issue related to the key's width? Not sure how key parallelism is handled on K spacebar. ?

    I'd, personally, prefer fingerprint sensor combined with trackpad in a toolbelt...
    What the hell? This is the very first time I ever hear of an LE having spacebar input issues, though I have heard of fingerprint sensor issues.

    Do you remember ever getting dust/debris/grease/other stuff in there maybe?
    01-05-21 08:06 PM
  7. idssteve's Avatar
    What the hell? This is the very first time I ever hear of an LE having spacebar input issues, though I have heard of fingerprint sensor issues.

    Do you remember ever getting dust/debris/grease/other stuff in there maybe?
    Well, the poor thing's been used, abused, ridden hard and put away soiled... Like all of my devices. Lol. If it weren't such a pita to swap, I'd have swapped LE's KB, by now.

    Not sure if it's really a KB problem or my technique and/or speed? Some handsets employ more discrete i/o "filtering delay" than others. For example, BB10 added to that delay excessively in the os version that mitigated double tap. It "fixed" BB10's dt's but can result in missed inputs when pushing speed too fast. One of the variables limiting my Classic speed to about 85% of 9900.

    It's possible that the discrete i/o filtering td for LE's spacebar might be set longer than other keys? For some reason?? My K2 experiences similar, also. Z30 and D60 vkb both also "miss" inputs when too hurried... The more I think of it, my spacebar problems might be simply over running the filtering. ?? I'll test this further...
    Last edited by idssteve; 01-05-21 at 09:16 PM.
    01-05-21 08:59 PM
  8. the_boon's Avatar
    Well, the poor thing's been used, abused, ridden hard and put away soiled... Like all of my devices. Lol. If it weren't such a pita to swap, I'd have swapped LE's KB, by now.

    Not sure if it's really a KB problem or my technique and/or speed? Some handsets employ more discrete i/o "filtering delay" than others. For example, BB10 added to that delay excessively in the os version that mitigated double tap. It "fixed" BB10's dt's but can result in missed inputs when pushing speed too fast. One of the variables limiting my Classic speed to about 85% of 9900.

    It's possible that the discrete i/o filtering td for LE's spacebar might be set longer than other keys? For some reason?? My K2 experiences similar, also. Z30 and D60 vkb both also "miss" inputs when too hurried... The more I think of it, my spacebar problems might be simply over running the filtering. ?? I'll test this further...
    I'm not sure but what I know is that sometimes with the KEY series, you need to give a slight pause when say hitting the C, V or B keys before hitting the spacebar or else it could result in a missed space.

    This is simply software related and very easy to avoid, I'd call it a non issue.
    01-05-21 10:15 PM
  9. idssteve's Avatar
    I'm not sure but what I know is that sometimes with the KEY series, you need to give a slight pause when say hitting the C, V or B keys before hitting the spacebar or else it could result in a missed space.

    This is simply software related and very easy to avoid, I'd call it a non issue.
    Yes, muscle memory can readily syncopate repeatable patterns like that. Auto spell, etc, possibly adds overhead to certain character combos? Might explain why I notice some similar behavior in vkb as well. I'm, personally, not fast enough to illicit such behavior on 9900, tho. Fwiw.
    01-05-21 11:12 PM
34 12

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