Yesterday 09:49 AM
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  1. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I'm talking about BB releasing an Android phone by 2009 - targeted mostly to consumers - and working with Google to secure Android for Enterprise. Even though BB was a smaller company, I think they could have had a significant seat at the table regarding security, much as Samsung has. But by releasing a mostly-consumer phone in 2009, and iterating on it, I think they'd have protected the brand image in a huge way, and they might have made a small profit on the phones. Yes, it still might have only delayed the inevitable exit from hardware, but even if in the end (i.e. 2014) you had BB with no component obligations, no severe brand image problems, and $5B more in the bank, BB the company would have been in a far better position. Would that have mattered here on CB? Of course not - people would still have wanted BB to spend their last penny - and then borrow billions more - to continue making phones because BB smartphones are the only thing that CB cares about. As a fan site, I get that. But looking at the company overall, I suspect my plan would have ended up about how I described it in this paragraph.

    While BB's name is still a positive to most here, it's the kiss of death to the vast majority of consumers, and that's because of the Storm and everything that followed - including BB10 without key apps. If you take all of that away, then I think BB is still a brand name with some real value and respect among consumers. We'll never know, of course, but I don't think folks here really appreciate the extent of the brand damage and how that negatively affects everything that BB does - even enterprise offerings. Even for car companies, IMO it's harder to justify QNX because of BB's brand image problems than it would be otherwise, even if that's only a secondary consideration. It means that BB is always going to lose what would otherwise be a tie. And in the consumer market, it obviously is pure poison for all but the diehard fans. I suspect that negative brand image alone has cost BB billions of dollars.
    I read some tech articles... most all put a big question mark on Cylance, as they are afraid of what BlackBerry will do. IT world has been disappointed way too many times by BlackBerry.
    Troy Tiscareno likes this.
    03-19-20 02:48 PM
  2. conite's Avatar
    If Mike and Jim had time machines... they wouldn't waste time figuring out how to save BlackBerry smartphones. They'd tell their 2008 selves to SELL BBRY stock ASAP and buy a nice Island in the Caribbean. Look up some guy named Chen and tell him to have fun....
    This is pretty much it in a nutshell.
    03-19-20 02:50 PM
  3. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    This is pretty much it in a nutshell.
    I'm sure Chen wishes he could have been around back then.... BBM might be a dominate Social Media platform worth 10's of billions alone. And back in 2008 BES dominated MDM... half these companies wouldn't exist if BlackBerry had forgotten about phones and focused on what they were making money on.... device management licencing. Adding support for Windows, iOS and then Android should have been a no brainier.
    Troy Tiscareno likes this.
    03-19-20 03:08 PM
  4. the_boon's Avatar
    BlackBerry: Skip to 6:33 - 8:23



    Apparently this guy agrees with me.

    Not the keyboard, but the "Zedten" and the OS it runs on, was the ultimate blow to BlackBerry.
    03-19-20 04:27 PM
  5. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    I'm sure Chen wishes he could have been around back then.... BBM might be a dominate Social Media platform worth 10's of billions alone. And back in 2008 BES dominated MDM... half these companies wouldn't exist if BlackBerry had forgotten about phones and focused on what they were making money on.... device management licencing. Adding support for Windows, iOS and then Android should have been a no brainier.
    Which goes back to my point about BB (and in particular Mike) being isolated from the heart of the tech world In Waterloo. Mike's thoughts were ALWAYS about RIM doing everything themselves, and thus forcing people to buy from RIM - which was VERY unrealistic given RIM's size, and completely missing the speed and direction that the market was moving. Had RIM had an office in the Valley and at least did some R&D there and a senior manager or two, they'd have had their finger on the pulse far more, and hopefully there would have been people who could have brought Mike back to reality.

    RIM was never especially friendly with outside developers (Mike never wanted them), and he also didn't want to support anyone else's devices or platforms. In other words, he didn't learn from Microsoft's example that if you weren't the "aspirational company with sleek, elegant tastes and the tech to back it up" (aka Apple), then to succeed, you had to work with the entire rest of the world. Windows wouldn't exist as a product if MS required that you buy MS-branded printers, scanners, keyboards, mice, sound cards, etc. Windows succeeded not because it was always the best, but because it had the best support of the whole world's software and hardware. Google followed this model very closely with Android - better than MS did with Windows Phone even - and it's the biggest reason Android won.

    BB wanted everything to be proprietary to BB, which is fine in a world where you invent something new and have no competition, but that doesn't work once you actually HAVE competition in your same market. Even iOS would have failed if Jobs had held his original line and not allowed third-party devs to make software for iOS; remember he originally wanted only Apple apps on the device, and everything else was going to have to be web apps. Luckily for Apple, he actually listened to the arguments that pushed for supporting third-party development, and that's what ultimately became iOS's biggest early strength: "there's an app for that!"

    Mike only wanted BB users to have what BB was able or willing to offer, and he thought that people would have to learn to be happy with those limitations. He got away with that for a few years, but eventually the competition was much more open, and belatedly forced RIM to give a little and allow third-party apps - but still so much was closed off. You couldn't BBM from a PC or Mac, or even a competing phone, until AFTER BBM was shedding users. Had BBM been an open platform, that alone could have been worth $20B or more. But everything RIM/BB did was closed like that, in a world where customers wanted more OPEN and more CHOICE. BES should have supported alternative platforms, absolutely! BBM absolutely should have been on every platform. And BB should have developed their own cloud and their own web/cloud-based app ecosystem - and they definitely could have raised the money for that!

    But Mike wanted to stay in the smartphone fight, even after seeing how that worked out for hardware makers of PCs. IBM didn't get all the money - hell, neither did Compaq, Dell, HP, or any of the others. They were constantly struggling with tiny margins. It was Microsoft - the company that ran on anything and worked with everyone - that got all of the money. RIM at one time could have moved that direction, but instead they doubled-down on hardware and proprietary software for that hardware, and it nearly killed them.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    03-19-20 04:32 PM
  6. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    BlackBerry: Skip to 6:33 - 8:23



    Apparently this guy agrees with me.

    Not the keyboard, but the "Zedten" and the OS it runs on, was the ultimate blow to BlackBerry.
    While he picked a single phone model, it was really BB10 as an entire project that did the MOST harm to RIM/BB, but if we were talking about a single phone that did the most harm, that would absolutely be the Storm. The fallout from the Storm is still being felt today, especially by Verizon customers who are/were or want to be BB users.
    the_boon likes this.
    03-19-20 04:54 PM
  7. the_boon's Avatar
    While he picked a single phone model, it was really BB10 as an entire project that did the MOST harm to RIM/BB, but if we were talking about a single phone that did the most harm, that would absolutely be the Storm. The fallout from the Storm is still being felt today, especially by Verizon customers who are/were or want to be BB users.
    Basically, the irreversibly bad decisions were made way before BlackBerry hardware finally ran Android.

    So the KEY phones themselves and their shortcomings can't really be blamed for the ultimate demise of 2020.
    Troy Tiscareno likes this.
    03-19-20 06:24 PM
  8. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Basically, the irreversibly bad decisions were made way before BlackBerry hardware finally ran Android.

    So the KEY phones themselves and their shortcomings can't really be blamed for the ultimate demise of 2020.
    That is absolutely, provably true.
    03-19-20 11:19 PM
  9. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    I'm sure Chen wishes he could have been around back then.... BBM might be a dominate Social Media platform worth 10's of billions alone. And back in 2008 BES dominated MDM... half these companies wouldn't exist if BlackBerry had forgotten about phones and focused on what they were making money on.... device management licencing. Adding support for Windows, iOS and then Android should have been a no brainier.
    ^^^Yes

    BlackBerry had lots of options tangential to handsets and plenty of cash to develop them. BBM could easily have been Slack, MS Teams, and /or WhatsApp. MDM could have been brilliant and dominant. Heck BlackBerry could have possible made the Hub the dominant cross-platform universal inbox if they had not wasted so much oof it's resources chasing Apple's hardware business.

    Z10 = BB10 + VKB > iOS + Android
    03-20-20 02:25 AM
  10. Luniz's Avatar
    ^^^Yes

    BlackBerry had lots of options tangential to handsets and plenty of cash to develop them. BBM could easily have been Slack, MS Teams, and /or WhatsApp. MDM could have been brilliant and dominant. Heck BlackBerry could have possible made the Hub the dominant cross-platform universal inbox if they had not wasted so much oof it's resources chasing Apple's hardware business.

    Z10 = BB10 + VKB > iOS + Android
    And here is the dog buried, because Blackberry from the BB10 system or maybe even going backwards, wasted a lot of money unnecessarily, I will give the example of BBMO / TCL. I will ask everyone here why so many applications have been released wasting time and resources instead of focusing on two to four applications and to refine them at the highest level? they crushed on a dozen or so applications, wasted a lot of resources, and what did they get from it? I will ask how much money went into developing the Productivity Tab application? who needed this In my opinion, this is a waste of time, etc ...

    The second thing in my opinion, Blackberry made a mistake by entering into systems with TCL, and only for the fact that such a large company as TCL and Blackberry to pay off, they would have to sell 2-3 million Blackberry phones every month, and could it not start from the bottom level? meaning starting from a smaller company where you would sell BB headphones less but would it pay off to a smaller company and it would be profitable? and do as Unihertz, you order, pay and we produce your phone and send you, not wasting money unnecessarily and after a short time closing investments because it is not profitable and here some people are happy that someone has tempted and released the Key2 market what after such a phone call was he doomed to failure and for that he didn't get Android 9? should now two companies have paid for the disposal of these electro-waste through such a policy of various companies in this world we have so much electro-waste that it will not be long in these electro-waste and they should be punished with such companies for short-term support and for the disposal of their electro-waste or it pays you Launch a product with long-term support, or you don't launch it at all.
    Last edited by Luniz; 03-20-20 at 08:54 AM.
    03-20-20 08:42 AM
  11. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    And here is the dog buried, because Blackberry from the BB10 system or maybe even going backwards, wasted a lot of money unnecessarily, I will give the example of BBMO / TCL. I will ask everyone here why so many applications have been released wasting time and resources instead of focusing on two to four applications and to refine them at the highest level? they crushed on a dozen or so applications, wasted a lot of resources, and what did they get from it? I will ask how much money went into developing the Productivity Tab application? who needed this In my opinion, this is a waste of time, etc ...

    The second thing in my opinion, Blackberry made a mistake by entering into systems with TCL, and only for the fact that such a large company as TCL and Blackberry to pay off, they would have to sell 2-3 million Blackberry phones every month, and could it not start from the bottom level? meaning starting from a smaller company where you would sell BB headphones less but would it pay off to a smaller company and it would be profitable? and do as Unihertz, you order, pay and we produce your phone and send you, not wasting money unnecessarily and after a short time closing investments because it is not profitable and here some people are happy that someone has tempted and released the Key2 market what after such a phone call was he doomed to failure and for that he didn't get Android 9? should now two companies have paid for the disposal of these electro-waste through such a policy of various companies in this world we have so much electro-waste that it will not be long in these electro-waste and they should be punished with such companies for short-term support and for the disposal of their electro-waste or it pays you Launch a product with long-term support, or you don't launch it at all.
    BlackBerry didn’t care to remain in Mobile so it left the business over three years ago. TCL was the only company willing to write a large enough check for BlackBerry to license the brand and OS development.
    03-20-20 04:26 PM
  12. the_boon's Avatar
    I simply don't believe BlackBerry had the wherewithal to produce a secured (even partially) Android device prior to 2015. They didn't have the capitalisation, the expertise, or the market weight to make a competitive product while avoiding Google's compliance rules.
    I'll just drop this here, skip from 4:15 to 4:52



    But I'm sure you'll have something to refute it
    04-02-20 01:00 PM
  13. conite's Avatar
    I'll just drop this here, skip from 4:15 to 4:52


    But I'm sure you'll have something to refute it
    You're hanging your hat on Chen answering "sure" when asked if he could have done it sooner? Ok.

    A year earlier, in early 2015, they couldn't even convince Google to support 1:1 on an Android Passport. Yet they could have magically convinced them to certify a heavily doctored Jellybean in 2013?

    The 2014 Silent Circle Blackphone 1 had a heavily modified version of KitKat and did NOT get Google Certification.

    BUT the 2015 Blackphone 2, based on Lollipop (like the Priv) DID get certified.

    Give me a tough question next time.
    Last edited by conite; 04-02-20 at 02:10 PM.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    04-02-20 01:07 PM
  14. Bla1ze's Avatar
    Not the keyboard, but the "Zedten" and the OS it runs on, was the ultimate blow to BlackBerry.
    Well, yeah. Launching your new (and barely finished) OS on a full-touch device while your base users were there for the keyboard wasn't the best idea. Lots of folks have fond memories of the Z10 but it's often forgotten how bare-bones the OS was when it launched and the follow-up to the Q10 felt like it took forever for those who wanted a keyboard.
    04-02-20 03:13 PM
  15. Bla1ze's Avatar
    While he picked a single phone model, it was really BB10 as an entire project that did the MOST harm to RIM/BB, but if we were talking about a single phone that did the most harm, that would absolutely be the Storm. The fallout from the Storm is still being felt today, especially by Verizon customers who are/were or want to be BB users.
    This 1000x over. The Storm failed right when DROID was on the rise. It was a recipe that when mixed made disaster for BlackBerry's reputation.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-02-20 03:19 PM
  16. Luniz's Avatar
    Well, yeah. Launching your new (and barely finished) OS on a full-touch device while your base users were there for the keyboard wasn't the best idea. Lots of folks have fond memories of the Z10 but it's often forgotten how bare-bones the OS was when it launched and the follow-up to the Q10 felt like it took forever for those who wanted a keyboard.
    I said some time ago that it was a mistake to release the full touchscreen Z10 on BB10 where just people with keyboards were waiting for the new BB10 system, as one editor who dealt with novelties in the Blackberry world said these words when he saw Q10: That they took the trackpad strap etc. Giving nothing in return and it was like BB9900 users cut off one thumb and make them write on Blackberry 9900, just as you release such a mega functional model where people have fallen in love this model all over the world and then cut off from proven functionalities and it gives you castrated models with great convenience for the benefit of other future new customers, losing old loyal customers, if they didn't convince new customers, they let the black tears drain Blackberry Classic where it was a slap for old loyal customers because as I repeat Blackberry Classic should come instead Z10 with strong gutters with a strong battery and touch keyboard the key2 has and as most loyal former customers keep repeating chasing after new customers as they saw that these efforts have no effect they remembered loyal customers and thus released the average Classic to wipe away tears but it was a turning point from my observation people who bought BB in my surroundings began to look for alternatives and so the BB community fell apart from my surroundings then it was just a downward curve as more and more people were looking for alternatives so as I ask how many people worked in BB works maybe still to the detriment of this companies ? how much did she work for the damage of the BB10 system ??? Because every wise man knows that you are not building a customer base by cutting branches that give profits to new customers.
    Yesterday 07:24 AM
  17. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    This 1000x over. The Storm failed right when DROID was on the rise. It was a recipe that when mixed made disaster for BlackBerry's reputation.
    A little more memory, and a real touch screen.... it's wouldn't have been an iPhone killer, but it might have slowed Android down.

    BBOS was a superior experience back in 2008... we had copy and past, and instant email with good battery life. What we didn't have was an OS that developers loved or that could grow... or much time before the others had what we had and more.

    In the end smartphone platform game was like playing theme park tycoon on the hardest level... a little change here or ignore something there and it all comes crumbling down.
    Yesterday 09:49 AM
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