Built for Business - Learn more about BlackBerry KEY2
09-19-19 05:40 AM
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  1. EricArden's Avatar
    Many BlackBerry fans feel very certain that TCL isn't happy with BlackBerry. The rumor has it that the deal was up for renegotiation.

    What proof is there that these negotiations are even real?

    Fact #1 ) Francois Mahieu, general manager of BlackBerry Mobile, said that a new version of its BlackBerry Key franchise won't appear for at least six months.

    Fact #2 ) "We don't want to throw out another BlackBerry for the sake of refreshing it," Mahieu said in an interview a day before the announcement.

    These quotes were pulled from this article:
    https://www.google.com/search?biw=41....0.FX8uraZXBjk

    Fact #3 ) Speaking at CES 2019, it was announced that more customers had been “connected” to BlackBerry last year than in 2017. At the moment, the Canadian brand is seeing double-digit growth, something it is very pleased with. Nevertheless, progress is still pretty slow and things will “take time.

    https://www.phonearena.com/news/Blac...happy_id112539
    09-12-19 06:19 PM
  2. conite's Avatar
    The deal isn't up for re-negotiation - it has 2 years left.

    However, BlackBerry is owed a lot of money from TCL and has stopped delivering security patches. Unless TCL doesn't care about it at all, we can only logically assume that they are discussing fees with BlackBerry.

    Rumours have suggested that it was BlackBerry that brought this to a head by wanting to increase their fixed fees in order to recoup their costs because of the lower than expected per unit fees. Presumably this was a contingency built into the original agreement.
    Last edited by conite; 09-12-19 at 06:42 PM.
    09-12-19 06:32 PM
  3. EricArden's Avatar
    The deal isn't up for re-negotiation - it has 2 years left.

    However, BlackBerry is owed a lot of money from TCL and has stopped delivering security patches. Unless TCL doesn't care about it at all, we can only logically assume that they are discussing fees with BlackBerry.

    Rumours have suggested that it was BlackBerry that brought this to a head by wanting to increase their fees in order to recoup their costs because of the lower than expected per unit fees.
    How do we know TCL owes BlackBerry money?
    09-12-19 06:34 PM
  4. conite's Avatar
    How do we know TCL owes BlackBerry money?
    For the first time, the rumours are now perfectly in line with actual, verifiable events - like the month-long, unprecedented, inactivity on the BBMo update servers and on PTCRB.

    We also know there has been a massive consolidation and reduction in offices and workforce at BBMo.

    I'm still hopeful that some level of service can be resumed at some point.

    I can also imagine that in another world, TCL would love to slap a physical keyboard on one of their own branded devices without the anchors of BlackBerry Android and the BlackBerry brand holding them down.
    09-12-19 06:37 PM
  5. EricArden's Avatar
    inactivity on the BBMo update servers and on PTCRB.
    I'm sorry, but this isn't something I've read much about. Can you elaborate a little more as to what this means exactly?
    09-12-19 06:48 PM
  6. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I'm sorry, but this isn't something I've read much about. Can you elaborate a little more as to what this means exactly?
    Now you’ve gone and done it..... ;-)
    09-12-19 06:50 PM
  7. conite's Avatar
    I'm sorry, but this isn't something I've read much about. Can you elaborate a little more as to what this means exactly?
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1381535354

    Here is my list that I keep regarding available updates for each of the KEY² variants. For over 2 years, we have a constant - almost daily - influx of new builds for various devices pop up. We have now had an entire month go by with absolutely no activity - zero - zip - nada. The tap has clearly been turned off.

    PTCRB is the certification agency for North American carriers. It is usually updated several weeks prior to seeing a new build. Again, nothing for 6 weeks. First time ever.
    Last edited by conite; 09-12-19 at 07:11 PM.
    09-12-19 06:51 PM
  8. conite's Avatar
    Now you’ve gone and done it..... ;-)
    Don't worry. I settled for the executive summary.
    09-12-19 07:08 PM
  9. EricArden's Avatar
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1381535354

    Here is my list that I keep regarding available updates for each of the KEY² variants. For over 2 years, we have a constant - almost daily - influx of new builds for various devices pop up. We have now had an entire month go by with absolutely no activity - zero - zip - nada. The tap has clearly been turned off.

    PTCRB is the certification agency for North American carriers. It is usually updated several weeks prior to seeing a new build. Again, nothing for 6 weeks. First time ever.
    Thank you, very interesting.

    But couldn't the lack of updates also be linked to the fact that the key2 is so old and BlackBerry is possibly working on 5G security?
    Plus they look like they've been busy with the QNX car stuff lately also.
    09-12-19 07:53 PM
  10. conite's Avatar
    Thank you, very interesting.

    But couldn't the lack of updates also be linked to the fact that the key2 is so old and BlackBerry is possibly working on 5G security?
    No.

    Plus they look like they've been busy with the QNX car stuff lately also.
    It's a completely separate team from anything else at BlackBerry.
    Vistaus likes this.
    09-12-19 07:54 PM
  11. John Albert's Avatar
    Thank you, very interesting.

    But couldn't the lack of updates also be linked to the fact that the key2 is so old and BlackBerry is possibly working on 5G security?
    Plus they look like they've been busy with the QNX car stuff lately also.
    I don't think Key2 is so old. Moreover, do you think they are planning to release a new device while they are ignoring the previous model?
    Does this make sense to a company that should have a well-oriented future strategy?
    09-12-19 08:03 PM
  12. EricArden's Avatar
    No.



    It's a completely separate team from anything else at BlackBerry.
    So basically your opinion is what?

    BlackBerry and TCL plan to sell as many key2's as possible and then abandon ship?

    If there is an outstanding balance between TCL and BlackBerry, do you think TCL would be willing to continue the brand after they make their payment?

    If this ended up being true, I do this TCL probably would end up paying BlackBerry, BUT would probably not bother risking another issue like that again.

    BUT my hope would be that TCL would either release either a TCL branded pkb phone OR bring back the Palm brand with a pkb. Which I know TCL purchased the Palm rights, but hasn't done anything with it. They could avoid the BlackBerry "tax" that way.
    09-12-19 08:06 PM
  13. conite's Avatar
    So basically your opinion is what?

    BlackBerry and TCL plan to sell as many key2's as possible and then abandon ship?

    If there is an outstanding balance between TCL and BlackBerry, do you think TCL would be willing to continue the brand after they make their payment?

    If this ended up being true, I do this TCL probably would end up paying BlackBerry, BUT would probably not bother risking another issue like that again.

    BUT my hope would be that TCL would either release either a TCL branded pkb phone OR bring back the Palm brand with a pkb. Which I know TCL purchased the Palm rights, but hasn't done anything with it. They could avoid the BlackBerry "tax" that way.
    I'm saying that the future of the relationship, and the future availability of patches, upgrades, and devices are up in the air pending some mutually beneficial negotiated resolution.

    If I had to make a prediction, I would say patches will resume, Pie has a 50% chance, and a future device has a 25% chance - at best.

    When this licence expires, or is forced to end, I see BlackBerry (perhaps) offering just their keyboard IP to other OEMs. The chances of someone picking it up would be 25% in my view.

    In the meantime, the best thing for both companies is to sell every last device in inventory - and they'll do whatever it takes to make sure that happens. If that means saying nothing - so be it.
    Last edited by conite; 09-12-19 at 08:26 PM.
    09-12-19 08:10 PM
  14. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    For the first time, the rumours are now perfectly in line with actual, verifiable events - like the month-long, unprecedented, inactivity on the BBMo update servers and on PTCRB.

    We also know there has been a massive consolidation and reduction in offices and workforce at BBMo.

    I'm still hopeful that some level of service can be resumed at some point.

    I can also imagine that in another world, TCL would love to slap a physical keyboard on one of their own branded devices without the anchors of BlackBerry Android and the BlackBerry brand holding them down.
    Given the consolidation of BBMo office/workforce, could it be the BBMo servers have moved or are no longer visible, permanently or temporarily?

    Could it be security updates have taken a backseat to focusing on an OS version upgrade?

    I do remember the BB10 is dead talk, regarding no more updates, then suddenly a surprise birth (a security update) when no one thought the patient was pregnant.

    PS... I can't imagine anyone marketing a device with a BlackBerry keyboard without labelling it as such prominently. BB has a stellar reputation for its pkb's, no one would be silly enough to bury that reputation.
    09-12-19 10:20 PM
  15. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    So basically your opinion is what?

    BlackBerry and TCL plan to sell as many key2's as possible and then abandon ship?
    Despite what some believe, I'm quite certain that the only K2s that have been "manufacturered" in the last year are the Red versions - and those were just a run of new red cases and keyboards and used spare/replacement parts for internals. We're talking 1-2,000 devices max, and more than likely the former.

    While I haven't visited any BBMo production lines, I know how manufacturing works, and I'm quite certain that the only thing "new" on the K2s has been the date they were flashed before leaving the factory, but the hardware itself was almost certainly manufactured more than a year ago and nothing since.

    Anyway, to more directly answer your question, the goal would be for all remaining BBMo inventory in retailer's possessions to be sold through to customers before any announcement is made. It doesn't help retailers or distributors to get stuck with discontinued product, and BBMo has no intention of refunding anyone's money.

    If there is an outstanding balance between TCL and BlackBerry, do you think TCL would be willing to continue the brand after they make their payment?
    TCL is losing money on every K2/K2LE sold, and last year, they sold 350k or less, total, which is 50% less than the year before. They expected to be selling millions per year. Why would they continue a money-losing venture?

    If this ended up being true, I do this TCL probably would end up paying BlackBerry, BUT would probably not bother risking another issue like that again.
    It remains to be seen if BB can successfully squeeze the money from a Chinese company that doesn't want to pay

    BUT my hope would be that TCL would either release either a TCL branded pkb phone OR bring back the Palm brand with a pkb. Which I know TCL purchased the Palm rights, but hasn't done anything with it. They could avoid the BlackBerry "tax" that way.
    They could have done that without BB in the first place. But their overwhelming lack of success with BB-branded PKBs isn't exactly going to give them a lot of motivation to go with PKBs. Again, why would you go with a product line or feature that's proven to be a money-loser?
    09-12-19 10:30 PM
  16. conite's Avatar
    Given the consolidation of BBMo office/workforce, could it be the BBMo servers have moved or are no longer visible, permanently or temporarily?

    Could it be security updates have taken a backseat to focusing on an OS version upgrade?

    I do remember the BB10 is dead talk, regarding no more updates, then suddenly a surprise birth (a security update) when no one thought the patient was pregnant.

    PS... I can't imagine anyone marketing a device with a BlackBerry keyboard without labelling it as such prominently. BB has a stellar reputation for its pkb's, no one would be silly enough to bury that reputation.
    I commend your optimism, but none of that rings true.
    09-12-19 10:31 PM
  17. bh7171's Avatar
    Despite what some believe, I'm quite certain that the only K2s that have been "manufacturered" in the last year are the Red versions - and those were just a run of new red cases and keyboards and used spare/replacement parts for internals. We're talking 1-2,000 devices max, and more than likely the former.

    While I haven't visited any BBMo production lines, I know how manufacturing works, and I'm quite certain that the only thing "new" on the K2s has been the date they were flashed before leaving the factory, but the hardware itself was almost certainly manufactured more than a year ago and nothing since.

    Anyway, to more directly answer your question, the goal would be for all remaining BBMo inventory in retailer's possessions to be sold through to customers before any announcement is made. It doesn't help retailers or distributors to get stuck with discontinued product, and BBMo has no intention of refunding anyone's money.



    TCL is losing money on every K2/K2LE sold, and last year, they sold 350k or less, total, which is 50% less than the year before. They expected to be selling millions per year. Why would they continue a money-losing venture?



    It remains to be seen if BB can successfully squeeze the money from a Chinese company that doesn't want to pay



    They could have done that without BB in the first place. But their overwhelming lack of success with BB-branded PKBs isn't exactly going to give them a lot of motivation to go with PKBs. Again, why would you go with a product line or feature that's proven to be a money-loser?
    "Your quite certain?" Honestly you have no emperical factual data or information in regards to your thoughts on devices built in 2019 and or how many actual Key2 devices have been sold globally. Pure speculations. I have been reading BlackBerry is dead posts since '13-'14 and here we are in 2019 and BlackBerry Ltd is still a viable profitable company and BlackBerry Mobile under TCL shows growth albeit slow but non the less growth which is contrary to many slab OEM's
    09-13-19 12:45 AM
  18. Ingvar Tsibylski's Avatar
    Good afternoon everyone
    Sorry for my English.
    I have been reading all the forum threads for a long time looking for information on k3 and BlackBerry in general. I'm completely happy with my KEYᵒⁿᵉ. But I want something fresher. Change to k2 I see no reason. As far as I can see and understand, do not wait for the release of k3 not from tcl, not from other manufacturers? Everything is somehow very confused. A lot of rumors and gossip. I want to know the answer for myself. Yes or no. Thanks to everyone who can give a specific answer.
    09-13-19 05:41 AM
  19. conite's Avatar
    Good afternoon everyone
    Sorry for my English.
    I have been reading all the forum threads for a long time looking for information on k3 and BlackBerry in general. I'm completely happy with my KEYᵒⁿᵉ. But I want something fresher. Change to k2 I see no reason. As far as I can see and understand, do not wait for the release of k3 not from tcl, not from other manufacturers? Everything is somehow very confused. A lot of rumors and gossip. I want to know the answer for myself. Yes or no. Thanks to everyone who can give a specific answer.
    No one can provide a specific answer on the KEY³. At the moment, I don't think even TCL can.
    Vistaus likes this.
    09-13-19 06:57 AM
  20. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Good afternoon everyone
    Sorry for my English.
    I have been reading all the forum threads for a long time looking for information on k3 and BlackBerry in general. I'm completely happy with my KEYᵒⁿᵉ. But I want something fresher. Change to k2 I see no reason. As far as I can see and understand, do not wait for the release of k3 not from tcl, not from other manufacturers? Everything is somehow very confused. A lot of rumors and gossip. I want to know the answer for myself. Yes or no. Thanks to everyone who can give a specific answer.
    Rumor and guess are all we have.... for now.
    Vistaus likes this.
    09-13-19 06:58 AM
  21. Ingvar Tsibylski's Avatar
    Thank. Although this is not the answer that I hoped to hear (lol)
    09-13-19 07:03 AM
  22. chain13's Avatar
    I can also imagine that in another world, TCL would love to slap a physical keyboard on one of their own branded devices without the anchors of BlackBerry Android and the BlackBerry brand holding them down.
    I agree to this. Android One software is cheaper and more reliable source than Androidberry.
    09-13-19 07:57 AM
  23. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I agree to this. Android One software is cheaper and more reliable source than Androidberry.
    Android is evolving.... what was a good idea back in 2014, just doesn't fit as well in today's market. Overall Android has gotten more secure on it's own, and more OEM are offering updates and patches than did back five years ago.

    I think for most here a BlackBerry KEY3 with Android One and Suite of BB Apps would be just fine. The issue is the BlackBerry name being used, without any extra security....
    chain13 and Vistaus like this.
    09-13-19 08:10 AM
  24. joeldf's Avatar
    "Your quite certain?" Honestly you have no emperical factual data or information in regards to your thoughts on devices built in 2019 and or how many actual Key2 devices have been sold globally. Pure speculations. I have been reading BlackBerry is dead posts since '13-'14 and here we are in 2019 and BlackBerry Ltd is still a viable profitable company and BlackBerry Mobile under TCL shows growth albeit slow but non the less growth which is contrary to many slab OEM's
    Show me empirical factual data that BBMo has shown growth of any kind under anyone.
    09-13-19 08:45 AM
  25. conite's Avatar
    Show me empirical factual data that BBMo has shown growth of any kind under anyone.
    All there is to go on in this respect is a statement from Maheu last Feb that year-over-year growth was 10%.

    There was no explanation as to how that number was derived.
    09-13-19 08:47 AM
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