[conite]

That's a convenient defence for mediocrity, but I don't buy it.

And I certainly expect camera updates for the Key2 at the price I paid. I hope I will not be disappointed.

In any event, I would spend $100 on the device before I even touched the SoC. Adding another $50 for that (and the associated components) would bring the price up to $799. That's my take, and I'm sticking to it.

Incidentally, only 4 devices were launched in 2018 with a 835, compared to 20 with a 660. So, there must be some structural logic to it. The ONLY Samsungs were in the latter group - and they have, by far, the best pricing on 800 series SoCs.

[anon(10268214)]

In any event, I would spend $100 on the device before I even touched the SoC. Adding another $50 for that (and the associated components) would bring the price up to $799. That's my take, and I'm sticking to it.

Incidentally, only 4 devices were launched in 2018 with a 835, compared to 20 with a 660. So, there must be some structural logic to it. The ONLY Samsungs were in the latter group - and they have, by far, the best pricing on 800 series SoCs.

$20 upgrade for the SoC conite. Let's stay on topic, changing the subject and deflecting with hypothetical nonsense isn't helping your argument.

[conite]

$20 upgrade for the SoC conite. Let's stay on topic, changing the subject and deflecting with hypothetical nonsense isn't helping your argument.

That number doesn't seem right. Why isn't anyone else doing that?

It's not just the chip either - it's the board, the cooling, the bus, etc.

[anon(10268214)]

That number doesn't seem right. Why isn't anyone else doing that?

It's not just the chip either - it's the board, the cooling, the bus, etc.

The post above claimed the current TOP selling price for Snapdragon products is around $40 for the 800 series, and about half that for the 400 series.

Pretty sure you read it. After all you quoted it.

That would put the 600 series somewhere in the middle, so $20 should more than cover the jump in cost from the 600 to 800 series.

Don't see why the board or anything else would cost more. There you go again, adding hypothetical costs and conditions to the discussion.

[conite]

Pretty sure you read it. After all you quoted it.

The post above claimed the current TOP selling price for Snapdragon products is around $40 for the 800 series, and about half that for the 400 series.

That would put the 600 series somewhere in the middle, so $20 should more than cover the jump in cost from the 600 to 800 series.

Don't see why the board or anything else would cost more. There you go again, adding hypothetical costs and conditions to the discussion.

Looking at the Samsung S9+, the BOM cost for the complete bundled 845 chipset (including all supporting components) is estimated at $67. But they get the best price in the world. Smaller OEMs get limited pickings from the flagship SoCs, and pay far more.

It's also about return on investment. Typically, smartphone makers double the unit cost to come up with a selling price. If the SoC delta is $25, then selling price goes up $50. Otherwise you have angry investors.

[anon(10268214)]

Looking at the Samsung S9+, the BOM cost for the complete bundled 845 chipset (including all supporting components) is estimated at $67.

You think like a contractor. Lol. Cost+++ for extras, but no account for the value of the original item that was supposed to be included.

We are only talking about the SoC. I never said we needed to clone all the components for the entire S9+ bundle. Where did that even come from? Even so, I'll play along for the sake of the argument.

Obviously, for the example you cited you would need the same data on the equivalent bundle on the Key2 to even begin to approach an accurate analysis of the cost difference.

So at $67 for Samsung's premium kit, and a price delta of $20 between the 600 and 800 series...and given all the features of the Key2, are you saying it's even physically possible for the Key2's equivalent kit of parts to come in at much less than $40-50? Sorry but I just don't see how that is feasible.

Therefore...what exactly is TCL achieving by cheaping out on the SoC? Honestly, I fail to see how adding $20 or so to the price would be hurting TCL's price point or bottom line in any meaningful way.

[conite]

Therefore...what exactly is TCL achieving by cheaping out on the SoC? Honestly, I fail to see how adding $20 or so to the price would be hurting TCL's price point or bottom line in any meaningful way.

Again, why does no one else do that either?

It's a $25 million dollar investment to upgrade the SoC on a million units. I would also think it a high risk one at that, as I don't see sales numbers being significantly swayed. An investor would want a high return on that money to cover the risk.

[Chuck Finley69]

Here’s my take as the non IT guy. The cost of the 835 is minimal if the only consideration. An OEM can’t build devices next year planning to use this year’s 845 because forecasting availability or pricing now would be difficult since the drop in price and increased availability improves with 845 successor announced then being used.

Your 835 evaluation has the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Your other issue, perception using the older SOC, creates its own perception issues. Remember when KEYone introduced with 625 and successors were already coming out? BBMo got ahead of some of these issues with Key2 and it’s costing an extra $150.

Because nowadays BBMo isn’t setting the bar, it can only react. It’s strategy of operating with it’s niche device in a niche space offers a better probability of small level of profitability and success. No amount of imitation of the big OEM strategies will succeed when done by a small undercapitalized new OEM. That’s why the Essential has failed. The Essential competition and the carriers have no reason to give up their customers to Essential business model. With little effort, AT&T, Verizon and flagship OEM competition kicked the Essential’s backside for craps and laughter.

[anon(10268214)]

Again, why does no one else do that either?

I though that would be obvious...because no one else is selling a 660 SoC phone for $650, that's why. Lol.

Saving $20 per unit is a much higher "investment risk" IMHO when you are over-pricing your product to the tune of hundreds of dollars relative to the competition. That is exactly what I was referring to earlier when I called it out as a "pea-brained' pricing strategy on TCL's part. At these numbers...it's little more than straight up nickel and diming that is so obtuse it borders on absurd.

[bb10adopter111]

I though that would be obvious...because no one else is selling a 660 SoC phone for $650, that's why. Lol.

Saving $20 per unit is a much higher "investment risk" IMHO when you are over-pricing your product to the tune of hundreds of dollars relative to the competition. That is exactly what I was referring to earlier when I called it out as a "pea-brained' pricing strategy on TCL's part. At these numbers...it's little more than straight up nickel and diming that is so obtuse it borders on absurd.

Your assumption is that the only reason BBM chose the 660 is to save money. I think that's the wrong analysis. I think it's more likely that they selected the processor that optimized performance and value for their target audience.

Most people don't need an SD 8xx anymore than they need a core i7 or threadripper for their PCs.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[krazyatom]

I think the whole reason why BBM is going for mid tier socket is that they want us to upgrade the phone every year. If keyone had snapdragon 835, not everyone will get key2 with snapdragon 660. Keyone had snapdragon 625 so it was possible for key2 to use the snapdragon 660. Does this make sense?

[ron_jeremy]

No amount of imitation of the big OEM strategies will succeed when done by a small undercapitalized new OEM. That’s why the Essential has failed.

It had the worst camera by a country mile when compared against the flagships, and no amount of software updates have been able to turn things around so far. Makes you excited for the K1/K2 software updates, eh?

Let's say the Essential debuted with the best camera in the business, meaning it would still have the best camera today, do you think they'd be in the position they're in, or do you think things might be a bit different & there'd be hella excitement for the PH-2? Now, I don't pretend to know the answer to that, but it sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?

[anon(10268214)]

Your assumption is that the only reason BBM chose the 660 is to save money. I think that's the wrong analysis. I think it's more likely that they selected the processor that optimized performance and value for their target audience.

Most people don't need an SD 8xx anymore than they need a core i7 or threadripper for their PCs.

Posted with my trusty Z10

And what of your assumptions? You won't be able to prove the 660 is any more power efficient than a current 800 series because well, it isn't. It's branded that way because Qualcomm has cleverly figured out a way to recover every last dollar from its manufacturing investment before it mothballs the 14nm manufacturing process once and for all (835/845 are on 10nm...the 821 was the last 800 series that used the 660's 14nm process...released Q3 2016)

For the price point they have chosen, it simply doesn't make any sense for TCL to forgo a current 800 series SoC, which is superior in every respect including power efficiency, for $20 or so.

Having said that, I do love the Key2 and don't have any regrets - I just know I would have enjoyed it even more with an 835/845 for an extra $20...including BETTER battery life. And yes, I STILL would have looked past it's other (minor) shortcomings because of that damn awesome keyboard, BlackBerry apps and security, build quality, etc etc.

[HostessCupcake]

The KEYone had a 625 and launched at $549. It did well enough.

The KEY2 LE will have a 636. So why the hell would it flop at $499 lol?

Because why would anyone pay $500 for a stripped down version of a phone that's already overpriced?

CrackBerrians can argue all day and night that the physical keyboard is worth a $200 premium over similarly spec'd phones without the keyboard. But that strategy clearly does not work because as soon as they announce the price, any potential customers who would buy a cheaper keyboard phone would write it off.

Most of the market has no clue what specs mean and will just buy the latest Apple or Samsung. The rest of the OEMs have to fight for the rest, who tend to have a better idea of specs and pricing. I'm sure there's a sizable number who would be willing to give a keyboard phone a try if its price was comparable to similar Motorola or LG or OnePlus devices. But BlackBerry keeps trying the >$500 prices and they're not getting much traction, hence the <1m K1s sold.

All that said, it appears that the K2 LE will be priced at $399. That is still a little high but within reason. They may have a real shot at gaining some new converts with that.

[HostessCupcake]

Why should any if us care about that? If TCL can make a great phone and a reasonable profit at 0.1% of the Android market, everyone wins, and if they can expand to 0.2% or 0.3%, their investment will have paid off.

There nothing wrong with a "small" profitable half-billion dollar business. Not everyone can be Apple or Samsung.

Posted with my trusty Z10

Because they keep telling everyone they want 3% of the "premium" market, whatever that means.

[bb10adopter111]

And what of your assumptions? You won't be able to prove the 660 is any more power efficient than a current 800 series because well, it isn't. It's branded that way because Qualcomm has cleverly figured out a way to recover every last dollar from its manufacturing investment before it mothballs the 14nm manufacturing process once and for all (835/845 are on 10nm...the 821 was the last 800 series that used the 660's 14nm process...released Q3 2016)

For the price point they have chosen, it simply doesn't make any sense for TCL to forgo a current 800 series SoC, which is superior in every respect including power efficiency, for $20 or so.

Having said that, I do love the Key2 and don't have any regrets - I just know I would have enjoyed it even more with an 835/845 for an extra $20...including BETTER battery life. And yes, I STILL would have looked past it's other (minor) shortcomings because of that damn awesome keyboard, BlackBerry apps and security, build quality, etc etc.

My only assumption is that BlackBerry Mobile made its decisions to optimize a function of both engineering and economic variables. I don't have any opinion on their choices as I frankly don't want or need to know what processor is in my mobile phone, as I am know here near a bottleneck point and don't expect to be for the three years I'll use my phone.

I fully respect that you care! ;-)
Posted with my trusty Z10

[HostessCupcake]

My only assumption is that BlackBerry Mobile made its decisions to optimize a function of both engineering and economic variables. I don't have any opinion on their choices as I frankly don't want or need to know what processor is in my mobile phone, as I am know here near a bottleneck point and don't expect to be for the three years I'll use my phone.

I fully respect that you care! ;-)
Posted with my trusty Z10

The market they are aiming for - people who put a little more thought into phones by not just buying the latest Apple or Samsung - does care. Even if they don't know anything about how CPUs compare, if they see it has something classified as "midrange" they're going to dismiss it.

This is anecdotal of course but I don't think it's far off.

[Bbnivende]

The commonality between the Evolve X and the Key2 is the hardened 660 processor. I would suggest that BlackBerry has something to do with processor selection.

The Evolve X is competing with the Oneplus6 that has a 845 processor.

The Oneplus is not in any carrier stores here in Canada which is a large negative.

An Evolve X carried by Bell and Telus for no more than $600 Cdn might be competitive.

Getting in carrier stores and having a decent camera could spell success for a BlackBerry all touch.

Personally, I prefer an all touch for reliability issues.

[anon(10268214)]

The market they are aiming for - people who put a little more thought into phones by not just buying the latest Apple or Samsung - does care. Even if they don't know anything about how CPUs compare, if they see it has something classified as "midrange" they're going to dismiss it.

This is anecdotal of course but I don't think it's far off.

I do appreciate that TCL has attempted to take it a bit more upmarket with the Key2. That's one of the reasons I bought one as soon as it was available. However I would like them to continue the trend and try for an 800 series for the next model! I hope sales of the Key2 are excellent, and that those who buy it give feedback to TCL and request even better specs. People who want better specs in a BlackBerry need to appreciate what TCL has done and BUY a Key2, not pass it up for another year. That is the best way to send a message to TCL that better specs is what we want...not b!tching endlessly on CB!

[HostessCupcake]

I do appreciate that TCL has attempted to take it a bit more upmarket with the Key2. That's one of the reasons I bought one as soon as it was available. However I would like them to continue the trend and try for an 800 series for the next model! I hope sales of the Key2 are excellent, and that those who buy it give feedback to TCL and request even better specs. People who want better specs in a BlackBerry need to appreciate what TCL has done and BUY a Key2, not pass it up for another year. That is the best way to send a message to TCL that better specs is what we want!

Well literally half the US market can't buy the K2 because it doesn't work on Verizon...

[anon(10268214)]

Well literally half the US market can't buy the K2 because it doesn't work on Verizon...

That's a shame, but exposure to half the US market is still better than nothing. I would say the main problem in the US is a total lack of carrier support for BlackBerry products. Even when they actually stock them. Lol.

Verizon is slowly updating their network. In another year or so, network compatibility should no longer be an issue...

[Chuck Finley69]

It had the worst camera by a country mile when compared against the flagships, and no amount of software updates have been able to turn things around so far. Makes you excited for the K1/K2 software updates, eh?

Let's say the Essential debuted with the best camera in the business, meaning it would still have the best camera today, do you think they'd be in the position they're in, or do you think things might be a bit different & there'd be hella excitement for the PH-2? Now, I don't pretend to know the answer to that, but it sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Remember that part about I’m not the IT guy. Lucky for you I slept in a Holiday Inn last night. I believe two distinct things. One, even with the best camera, the Essential would still be in the proverbial ditch. Two, if possible, Essential would have debuted with the best camera. Someone else mentioned and I concur. It took many years of proprietary software development for the best performing flagship devices to have stellar cameras. That costs development money and TIME/EXPERIENCE which Essential and other smaller OEMs don’t have.

[ron_jeremy]

The Oneplus is not in any carrier stores here in Canada which is a large negative.

Oneplus is making moves to be one of the biggest 2nd tier players in the market. Yes, the fact that their devices are not in any carrier stores in Canada is a negative, but I can't see Oneplus sitting around with their hands in their pockets for too long.

An Evolve X carried by Bell and Telus for no more than $600 Cdn might be competitive.

Getting in carrier stores and having a decent camera could spell success for a BlackBerry all touch.

Agreed, but I wasn't aware that the Evolve phones were coming to a or North America in general.

[ron_jeremy]

Remember that part about I’m not the IT guy. Lucky for you I slept in a Holiday Inn last night. I believe two distinct things. One, even with the best camera, the Essential would still be in the proverbial ditch. Two, if possible, Essential would have debuted with the best camera. Someone else mentioned and I concur. It took many years of proprietary software development for the best performing flagship devices to have stellar cameras. That costs development money and TIME/EXPERIENCE which Essential and other smaller OEMs don’t have.

I can't make any sense of that -- at all. Or, are you agreeing with me? Actually, you're a self professed non-techy so I don't much care.

[Chuck Finley69]

I can't make any sense of that -- at all. Or, are you agreeing with me? Actually, you're a self professed non-techy so I don't much care.

Simple, Essential would still be dead with best camera as they don’t have anywhere close to necessary economic resources to unseat industry leaders.

Andy Rubin would have the best performing camera if just that simple. He knew not to waste the limited resources to get his company up and running.