09-14-18 01:14 PM
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  1. conite's Avatar
    First time posting here, long time lurker of these forums. I feel the need to jump in and add to the conversation.

    So who exactly is BBMo’ target demographic or consumer? I’m 36, manager within local government, exclusively used a BB from 2005 up until I reluctantly sold my Passport SE in 2016 and got a Nexus 6P. Since then I’ve used an iPhone 6s, Note 8 and recently used a BB Motion for six weeks.

    What I loved about Blackberry was the productivity of the keyboard, great call quality, both ear piece and speakerphone, good battery life, awesome reception, solid build quality, never an issue with performance. Ok the cameras weren’t great but it wasn’t that critical back in 2005-2010 as most people back then were packing digital cameras.

    So fast forward to 2018 and I still need those qualities in a phone for my job. Plus when I’m watching my kids at their Christmas concert and I pull out my phone, I need it to deliver good shots.

    So here’s my question, who exactly is BBMo targeting with the key series?

    They quote “the business professional” but most professionals I’ve encountered in Canada over the last three years are using top of the line flagships from Apple or Samsung. Why? Because they need a good, solid device for every situation.

    So who are they targeting? Students? The general population? The elderly? Who knows?

    Why the $650 price point? If your hoping to entice any of those “business professionals” away from Apple or Samsung, why compromise the quality of the device by sourcing sub standard parts to fit an abstract number? Why not $800? Why not $900? The majority of people I interact with purchase phones on two year plans and couldn’t even tell you the retail price of the unit.

    Look at the Note 9 launch event that happened today. The phone will sell in the millions and it retails at $1k but what percentage of buyers are dropping that upfront?

    The vast majority of people are never going to give BB a second glance unless they manufacture a premium phone that can at least compete with Apple and Samsung.

    On paper I’m their targeted demographic, previous BB user, business professional, willing to pay top dollar yet for some reason they’ve managed to mess it up.

    Oh and for the record, this notion that you can only be “productive” on a pkb is absolute nonsense. Granted it’s a nicer experience typing on a pkb but it does not affect how much I accomplish on a device.
    The demographic is people who can't live without a physical keyboard (or at least would greatly prefer not to).

    The camera is more than enough for my needs, and can actually take some nice shots as far as I'm concerned.

    Your real question here is whether there is a market for an uber-Key at the $800+ price point. I'd have to think they did a bit of research. But the KEY² will at least provide them with some actual metrics of moving from $549 to $649. Maybe they will eventually determine that they can in fact move up even higher.
    nst6ldr likes this.
    08-09-18 11:41 PM
  2. AhabSnake's Avatar
    do most people in usa buy their phones outright or on a contract plan?
    08-10-18 12:28 AM
  3. SeeBeeEss's Avatar
    There was a time when there were multiple reasons for me to buy the BlackBerry brand - designed (and once even made) in Canada, better security, dislike of the Android OS, proprietary software like the Hub only available on BlackBerry branded hardware, quality build and the pkb. Of these, only the pkb remains IMHO.

    Although I prefer it, I can and have lived without the pkb (actually loved my Z30). BBMo/TCL simply has to do better than offer a pkb on a "meh" device.
    Last edited by SeeBeeEss; 08-10-18 at 02:04 AM.
    08-10-18 01:35 AM
  4. Fred98TJ's Avatar
    IMO the whole “pkb” it’s way over rated here. The vast, vast majority of cell phone users do not need or want a pkb. Market drives phone makers and none of the other brands of cell phones offer a pkb. If there were really any demand for it the other big names would offer a pkb.
    Now most here would maybe say otherwise but the fact remains the the BB fans are a very small group in the big realm of things.
    BB sales are hardly a fly spec in the cell phone totals.
    pdr733 likes this.
    08-10-18 02:23 AM
  5. HostessCupcake's Avatar
    The Passport was built from parts commitments that were needed to be used and sold in devices for whatever cash revenue to be recouped. The devices never stood a chance for profitability..

    The point that Conite makes is valid. KEYone was $499 device. Key2 is $649 device. Key2 LE will probably be a $499 device. What should BBMo swap out from current offerings specs and features to keep price steady?
    If the Key2 LE is $499 it will be an instant flop. The specs do not justify it at all.
    iHadLastBB, krazyatom and Mecca EL like this.
    08-10-18 03:06 AM
  6. the_boon's Avatar
    If the Key2 LE is $499 it will be an instant flop. The specs do not justify it at all.
    The KEYone had a 625 and launched at $549. It did well enough.

    The KEY2 LE will have a 636. So why the hell would it flop at $499 lol?
    08-10-18 04:51 AM
  7. the_boon's Avatar
    BB should make a device that gives people less reason to complain., No phone is perfect but the weakest link seems to be the camera. If the camera was outstanding we could all cheer & be happy that we finally happy an almost industry leading camera.
    People will always complain. I think they nailed the build quality of the KEY2 much better compared to early silver KEYones last year. Those were REALLY hit or miss.
    Camera and spacebar software should now be their number 1 priority to focus their dedicated teams on.
    08-10-18 05:01 AM
  8. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    do most people in usa buy their phones outright or on a contract plan?
    In USA, most phones are bought on payments. Carriers take full retail price and divide typically 24 or 30 payments. This is done in order to separate data pricing from device pricing to compete for customers.
    08-10-18 06:27 AM
  9. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    If the Key2 LE is $499 it will be an instant flop. The specs do not justify it at all.
    Again, BBMo isn’t looking to compete on specs unless it’s against PKB devices. In that regard, it’s competitive against the KEYone and Key2. If PKB isn’t your PRIMARY feature spec, you’re not target demographic.
    08-10-18 06:30 AM
  10. SeeBeeEss's Avatar
    Again, BBMo isn’t looking to compete on specs unless it’s against PKB devices. In that regard, it’s competitive against the KEYone and Key2. If PKB isn’t your PRIMARY feature spec, you’re not target demographic.
    BBMo only competing with themselves (against their own pkb devices) in a limited target market doesn't sound like a sound business strategy to me.
    08-10-18 06:40 AM
  11. the_boon's Avatar
    BBMo only competing with themselves (against their own pkb devices) in a limited target market doesn't sound like a sound business strategy to me.
    Nothing changes the fact that they have licensing fees to pay to John Chen every time they make a BB branded device.

    I mean, sure, we could have a generic PKB device called "TCL KEY3" with no BB branding, but then I'm not sure how that one would sell in U.S market for example. Besides, Chen would sue them if they even dared to have keyboard frets and key sculpting on a non-BB branded PKB device.
    08-10-18 06:52 AM
  12. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    First time posting here, long time lurker of these forums. I feel the need to jump in and add to the conversation.

    So who exactly is BBMo’ target demographic or consumer? I’m 36, manager within local government, exclusively used a BB from 2005 up until I reluctantly sold my Passport SE in 2016 and got a Nexus 6P. Since then I’ve used an iPhone 6s, Note 8 and recently used a BB Motion for six weeks.

    What I loved about Blackberry was the productivity of the keyboard, great call quality, both ear piece and speakerphone, good battery life, awesome reception, solid build quality, never an issue with performance. Ok the cameras weren’t great but it wasn’t that critical back in 2005-2010 as most people back then were packing digital cameras.

    So fast forward to 2018 and I still need those qualities in a phone for my job. Plus when I’m watching my kids at their Christmas concert and I pull out my phone, I need it to deliver good shots.

    So here’s my question, who exactly is BBMo targeting with the key series?

    They quote “the business professional” but most professionals I’ve encountered in Canada over the last three years are using top of the line flagships from Apple or Samsung. Why? Because they need a good, solid device for every situation.

    So who are they targeting? Students? The general population? The elderly? Who knows?

    Why the $650 price point? If your hoping to entice any of those “business professionals” away from Apple or Samsung, why compromise the quality of the device by sourcing sub standard parts to fit an abstract number? Why not $800? Why not $900? The majority of people I interact with purchase phones on two year plans and couldn’t even tell you the retail price of the unit.

    Look at the Note 9 launch event that happened today. The phone will sell in the millions and it retails at $1k but what percentage of buyers are dropping that upfront?

    The vast majority of people are never going to give BB a second glance unless they manufacture a premium phone that can at least compete with Apple and Samsung.

    On paper I’m their targeted demographic, previous BB user, business professional, willing to pay top dollar yet for some reason they’ve managed to mess it up.

    Oh and for the record, this notion that you can only be “productive” on a pkb is absolute nonsense. Granted it’s a nicer experience typing on a pkb but it does not affect how much I accomplish on a device.
    Welcome to CrackBerry. You’re target demographic with the Motion if BB name really means that much to you. Paying software premium for BBAndroid on VKB device and licensing name premium since BBMo doesn’t own the brand.

    BB licensing and software costs add $50 for each feature to every device let's estimate so BBMo is at $100 disadvantage per device with just VKB devices. Add the PKB for another $50 disadvantage. All this is because, TCL licensed the BB package all or none and created BBMo to attempt profitability in Western countries primarily North America. The current political climate with origin country manufacturing supported by “enemy” governments has been an issue for several years. The BB licensing was partly to soften that image with a familiar Western brand name.

    At the end of the day, since BBMo is producing small quantities of a licensed product with additional costs due to small quantities and bundled licensed software, you’re target demographic, if you’re willing to pay the price for the existing product now available. If not, you’re not the intended demographic.
    08-10-18 06:55 AM
  13. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Why do people still believe in security when using Android based phones. It makes no sense at all. Well, the only thing that seems clear is that BB's marketing has convinced you that hardware security is the end all. A family member worked for the N S A & we discussed all this stuff. I think people completely & foolishly under estimate computing power today to bypass security. I know the phone can;'t rooted by any intelligence agency, can EASILY get into your phone if they wanted to today. Especially, using Android & Google Play apps.

    I don;t & have never used social media, even though my generation loves it. I don't like the fact that Google or FB or any other social media has everybody's information but we can;t hide. We haven't been able to hide for years. So who are BB users hiding from when they say they want "Security"??? I honestly don't get it.

    Why are users on the forum living in an outdated mindset that a camera isn't needed for work?? Many people can chime in & say how their business or profession needs a camera. Even when you don't need a camera for work. You'd still like a quality camera to take pictures on vacation away from work. My uncles are physicians & have used "toy" phones since the 9360. They have no reason to go back to Blackberry. One uncle who is a Neurosurgeon has certainly gotten by very well using his "i" products.

    He's also very happy that when he takes a nice vacation. His iPhone takes beautiful pictures in the day & NIGHT time, low light pictures.

    There is really no reason to excuse BB for the poor camera, especially in 2018. It's absurd.
    I run a cybersecurity strategy firm, and many of our corporate clients to are specifically focused on protection from foreign governments who steal intellectual property to benefit their national industries. It may be true that a national security agency who has physical possession of a phone can theoretically retrieve encrypted data through a brute force decryption scheme, but that has not been demonstrated yet for high quality encryption.

    But it is simply false that such an agency can access properly secured network data through a properly configured secure Android phone without a critical error being made by the user and/or system administrators. It takes a combination of compromises at each level to breach a well-secured system. That's the whole idea behind a defense-in-depth strategy.

    But the endpoints still matter a lot, and most Android OEMs leave gaping wholes in the Android security model because they either don't want to invest in a well-resourced security engineering function or they don't care, or they are passively or actively colluding with a nation state security agency to make phones easier to breach.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    Kraeutermann and Mecca EL like this.
    08-10-18 07:01 AM
  14. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    They could surface the raw and that would help solve the cam problem for some. Right now you get pretty bad and have no head room to help change or fix it
    I would live if raw images were easily available on mobile phones, but I don't know how many users care.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    Mecca EL likes this.
    08-10-18 07:02 AM
  15. the_boon's Avatar
    Welcome to CrackBerry. You’re target demographic with the Motion if BB name really means that much to you. Paying software premium for BBAndroid on VKB device and licensing name premium since BBMo doesn’t own the brand.

    BB licensing and software costs add $50 for each feature to every device let's estimate so BBMo is at $100 disadvantage per device with just VKB devices. Add the PKB for another $50 disadvantage. All this is because, TCL licensed the BB package all or none and created BBMo to attempt profitability in Western countries primarily North America. The current political climate with origin country manufacturing supported by “enemy” governments has been an issue for several years. The BB licensing was partly to soften that image with a familiar Western brand name.

    At the end of the day, since BBMo is producing small quantities of a licensed product with additional costs due to small quantities and bundled licensed software, you’re target demographic, if you’re willing to pay the price for the existing product now available. If not, you’re not the intended demographic.
    Someone should just make your post a sticky called "The reason why Android BB devices may seem a bit overpriced"
    ppeters914 likes this.
    08-10-18 07:06 AM
  16. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    BBMo only competing with themselves (against their own pkb devices) in a limited target market doesn't sound like a sound business strategy to me.
    A relatively small company trying to compete head-to-head with Apple, Samsung, LG, etc. For top shelf components and a limited number of ultra premium customers sounds like a much worse strategy!

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    08-10-18 07:06 AM
  17. AhabSnake's Avatar
    IMO the whole “pkb” it’s way over rated here. The vast, vast majority of cell phone users do not need or want a pkb. Market drives phone makers and none of the other brands of cell phones offer a pkb. If there were really any demand for it the other big names would offer a pkb.
    Now most here would maybe say otherwise but the fact remains the the BB fans are a very small group in the big realm of things.
    BB sales are hardly a fly spec in the cell phone totals.
    It's not about needs, it's about wants. Just as i don't need a 6inch screem to enjoy youtube on the go or use watsapp on. People can get ny fine without a pkb, but they won't know what theyre missing. The feeling you get is taken to a different level. How could you speak for the millions when they haven't even tried it or know it exists? It all comes down to marketing and carrier support and blackberry failed miserably at that. If i can go from a pixel 2 to a keyone, and swear by the keyone , i'm sure millions more would appreciate the keyone/2, if they gave it a chance. If all major carriers globally carried the phone, the key2 could sell a a few million. And some good marketing and pop ups getting people to try it and learn it, would work wonders for them.
    HostessCupcake likes this.
    08-10-18 07:14 AM
  18. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    And 99.9% of the market does not care about it.
    Why should any if us care about that? If TCL can make a great phone and a reasonable profit at 0.1% of the Android market, everyone wins, and if they can expand to 0.2% or 0.3%, their investment will have paid off.

    There nothing wrong with a "small" profitable half-billion dollar business. Not everyone can be Apple or Samsung.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    Mecca EL likes this.
    08-10-18 07:15 AM
  19. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    It's not about needs, it's about wants. Just as i don't need a 6inch screem to enjoy youtube on the go or use watsapp on. People can get ny fine without a pkb, but they won't know what theyre missing. The feeling you get is taken to a different level. How could you speak for the millions when they haven't even tried it or know it exists? It all comes down to marketing and carrier support and blackberry failed miserably at that. If i can go from a pixel 2 to a keyone, and swear by the keyone , i'm sure millions more would appreciate the keyone/2, if they gave it a chance. If all major carriers globally carried the phone, the key2 could sell a a few million. And some good marketing and pop ups getting people to try it and learn it, would work wonders for them.
    This is what the old BB and the new BBMo have wanted. Limited resources have always been a large part of the problem and consumers will always be happy with status quo until they’re not happy. It’s difficult to get the “not happy” switch triggered when the current status quo defends against that.
    08-10-18 07:21 AM
  20. panopticon's Avatar
    Here is a question. Let's say BBMo were to keep everything on the Key2 the same, but put in an 835 SoC? How much would that impact the price?
    08-10-18 07:30 AM
  21. the_boon's Avatar
    I know I'm not answering your question, but I think it wouldn't make a damn difference in the device's success.
    No one will be about to pull the trigger on this phone and back away because of a 660 instead of 845. No one (imo).

    The only reason one NEEDS an 845 is if he's serious about gaming on PUBG at max graphics settings.

    660 is way more than enough. And it has the battery life benefits.
    08-10-18 07:37 AM
  22. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Here is a question. Let's say BBMo were to keep everything on the Key2 the same, but put in an 835 SoC? How much would that impact the price?
    Beyond price, what would the BENEFIT be of the 835? I have a hard time imagining any use case other than gaming, and who wants to game on a 3:2 display???

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    08-10-18 07:52 AM
  23. panopticon's Avatar
    So honestly...no one here knows the price delta between a 660 and an 835 SoC? Let's stick to the question, not why you don't think it's needed.

    (And just for the record...the 835 is still 'current' for many flagships out there, the 845 being the current top of the line)
    Mecca EL likes this.
    08-10-18 08:12 AM
  24. mralgi's Avatar
    So honestly...no one here knows the price delta between a 660 and an 835 SoC? Let's stick to the question, not why you don't think it's needed.

    (And just for the record...the 835 is still 'current' for many flagships out there, the 845 being the current top of the line)
    Found this, but not sure how valid it is....

    "Qualcomm's average smartphone platform selling price appears to be about $24. Of course, this would tend to suggest that the selling price of a higher-end product, like the Snapdragon 800 family, would be more in the high $30s/low $40s, as the lower end Snapdragon 400 products probably fetch more along the lines of $10-$15 per unit and dominate the volume."

    https://www.fool.com/investing/gener...napdragon.aspx
    Mecca EL likes this.
    08-10-18 08:44 AM
  25. conite's Avatar
    So honestly...no one here knows the price delta between a 660 and an 835 SoC? Let's stick to the question, not why you don't think it's needed.

    (And just for the record...the 835 is still 'current' for many flagships out there, the 845 being the current top of the line)
    https://www.androidcentral.com/why-d...-budget-phones

    In addition to the generalized points raised in this article, it's a matter of supply as well.
    08-10-18 08:51 AM
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