[Chuck Finley69]

BlackBerry Limited isn't interested in running a "popcorn stand" business for a few dollars. It's a distraction and not worth the overhead. The patents are valid for 20 years, so BlackBerry doesn't have to fret if the market "disappears" in 2020. If their patents are still useful, they will be of interest to some company in the future. If not, there's no harm done in sitting on them.

The PKB patents are a small part of BB's patent library, but there is a licensing department responsible for maximizing their value. I'm confident that they will make better decisions about their financial interests than we can from the outside.

If no other company wants to invest in new technology to create an alternative PKB without licensing BlackBerry's intellectual property, then BlackBerry has a monopoly on high quality PKBs and they should not license them at fire sale prices just because TCL wants to sell cheaper phones.

Posted with my trusty Z10

Actually I think BB entered into revenue sharing agreement with an established patent marketing and enforcement company.

[elfabio80]

BB doesn’t need the licensing revenue if unprofitable and it’s obvious from the beginning that Chen required these companies to guarantee expenses plus some base profit margin. After the $ billion + acquisition of Cylance last year, that’s where the focus of BB management is and should be. QNX is the other big focus. As I said the whole licensing strategy, because it produced lower than expected revenue, is becoming increasingly an unnecessary distraction...

TCL isn’t stupid or cheap. TCL seems to be suffering from cost of tariffs and tightened margins. It may really not be worth paying for patents from their perspective either.

Right, my point is that nobody knows what is happening.... We can debate endless....meanwhile I open a beer!!

[bb10adopter111]

Actually I think BB entered into revenue sharing agreement with an established patent marketing and enforcement company.

Thanks for the information. That could add even more to the cost of licensing, raising the break-even point for licensing agreements.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[Troy Tiscareno]

Where are you sighting the "200-300k" sales figure?

https://forums.crackberry.com/news-r...rumors-1174843

Per this, 2018's total BBMo sales were 320-350K devices - which is half of 2017 sales. And 87K for the first half of 2019, which obviously is going to be far lower on the second half due to no availability. But I'm extrapolating that demand continues to fall and at best they'd be looking at 200-300K.

Here's a graph I made with BB and then BBMo total yearly sales. You can see why the trend line would be a massive concern:

Article after article states that 1) TCL is happy with the growth and understands it's going to take time.

That's called "spin." Much like BBMo, when asked about sales, said "we're 'connecting' lots of customers to BB." It's something that sounds good, but avoids actually answering the question, because the actual answer is NOT good.

2) has yet to release numbers to the public.

And they won't. They only release TOTAL device numbers across all of TCL smartphone sales, which includes Alcatel and TCL-branded phones in addition to BB-branded phones.

So, the very best information available is these back-channel, "unofficial" numbers from people who are in a position to know.

What does the K2LE vs the K2 simcard have to do with anything? If a phone is sold, a phone is sold regardless of the model type. We don't even know Sales figures nor do we know the return rate....especially on a specific device. The assumption is that people buy a K2LE, return it, and buy a K2 instead. Even if this is true, there isn't an issue with it. People at the end of the day bought a key2.

The issue is that those returned K2LEs are now "used" and can only be sold at a discount, which means the retailer isn't going to get their profit from that device, AND has to deal with the expense of refurbishing and repackaging it, and selling it AGAIN. Returns are a huge loss, and any retailer hates returns and will avoid carrying brands or models that have a high rate of return.

I'm willing to bet the vast majority of BlackBerry phones are sold as unlocked and therefore have little to no impact on phone carriers. Me buying a BlackBerry of my own free will without a plan and putting a SIM card into it, doesn't hurt my carrier in the slightest.

Many are, but those phones are still sold by a retailer - Amazon, Best Buy, or whomever, and those retailers get hurt by high returns too.

And it isn't JUST the Verizon issue, but all the people who return 2 or 3 because they're trying to find one with "the best spacebar feel" or "better screen quality" or whatever.

When you've got devices that are already very slow movers, AND there's a high number of returns, that tells retailers and carriers "stay away from this brand." I was answering the question "why is BB struggling/having low sales/not getting carrier support?", and this is a big reason. We've had folks who have worked at carriers who have explained in detail why returns are a huge issue for them - it's not just me making that up.

[TgeekB]

Right, my point is that nobody knows what is happening.... We can debate endless....meanwhile I open a beer!!

I was just at a German festival so I opened a pitcher!

[Invictus0]

BlackBerry Limited isn't interested in running a "popcorn stand" business for a few dollars. It's a distraction and not worth the overhead.

If that were the case they would have gotten QNX out of the Infotainment business a long time ago.

BlackBerry could earn licensing fees of $5 to $25 per car with advanced self-driving technology, up from the $1.50 to $5 it earns for just providing infotainment systems, Chen said on an analyst call.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1C31GU

BlackBerry still needs a business to replace what devices were at their peak. From the above quote it seems self driving technology could be the thing if it really takes off but that's still years away. Until it arrives I don't see why BlackBerry would turn money away when all they're doing is licensing. I'm sure it would be less work for them to license keyboard patents than it is to manage and license BB Android.

The patents are valid for 20 years, so BlackBerry doesn't have to fret if the market "disappears" in 2020. If their patents are still useful, they will be of interest to some company in the future. If not, there's no harm done in sitting on them.

Not all of their patents are from 2000, some are only a few years old (like the keyboard fingerprint sensor).

[bb10adopter111]

If that were the case they would have gotten QNX out of the Infotainment business a long time ago.



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1C31GU

BlackBerry still needs a business to replace what devices were at their peak. From the above quote it seems self driving technology could be the thing if it really takes off but that's still years away. Until it arrives I don't see why BlackBerry would turn money away when all they're doing is licensing. I'm sure it would be less work for them to license keyboard patents than it is to manage and license BB Android.



Not all of their patents are from 2000, some are only a few years old (like the keyboard fingerprint sensor).

I will respond to each of your points separately, but will not quite them separately.

1). QNX is a high margin offering that is growing market share in a growth industry. (a "star" in the BCG growth-share matrix (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth-share_matrix) while PKBs and BlackBerry Android are losing market share in a flat to declining industry with declining profits (a "dog" in the BCG Matrix. Business strategy 101 is that you invest in stars and divest dogs.

2) Yes, BlackBerry Ltd. absolutely needs to grow revenues to replace BIS fees, and if their handset patents can don't hat, they will certainly be licensed to do. Conversely, we may infer that, if they are not licensed it will be because the terms aren't favorable enough to make a meaningful impact.

3) I was referring to the more recent patents, which BlackBerry can exploit for years to come, potentially on new classes of products. (Personally, I wish someone would make a dedicated universal remote with a BlackBerry PKB!)

If the choice is between lousy terms in 2020 that offer no likely upside, don't meaningfully affect the income statement, and take the handset patents off the market for other opportunities vs. no license in 2020 with the opportunity to use the patents as leverage in other agreements that have greater upside, BlackBerry would likely prefer the latter.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[Invictus0]

1). QNX is a high margin offering that is growing market share in a growth industry. (a "star" in the BCG growth-share matrix (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth-share_matrix) while PKBs and BlackBerry Android are losing market share in a flat to declining industry with declining profits (a "dog" in the BCG Matrix. Business strategy 101 is that you invest in stars and divest dogs.

Is it actually growing marketshare right now? BB10 is dead and in the Infotainment space they lost Toyota a few years ago, I know they do a lot behind the scenes in cars but AGL is expanding into that too.

Self driving technology could change that though of course. I don't know much about their other industries.

2) Yes, BlackBerry Ltd. absolutely needs to grow revenues to replace BIS fees, and if their handset patents can don't hat, they will certainly be licensed to do. Conversely, we may infer that, if they are not licensed it will be because the terms aren't favorable enough to make a meaningful impact.

3) I was referring to the more recent patents, which BlackBerry can exploit for years to come, potentially on new classes of products. (Personally, I wish someone would make a dedicated universal remote with a BlackBerry PKB!)

If the choice is between lousy terms in 2020 that offer no likely upside, don't meaningfully affect the income statement, and take the handset patents off the market for other opportunities vs. no license in 2020 with the opportunity to use the patents as leverage in other agreements that have greater upside, BlackBerry would likely prefer the latter.

Keep in mind though that BlackBerry wants to build licensing revenue, in the Reuters article I linked to in my previous post Chen even says he wants it to match their enterprise software business one day. If BB Android revenue is falling then they'll need something to replace it with.

From this perspective, if BlackBerry is able to get even $1 per PKB device (I'm sure they could get more but perhaps not as much as they get on Key devices) that could still be substantial with volume. A company like TCL could leverage that PKB tech across Android and KaiOS with a more competitive price point (all speaking hypothetically of course).

[bb10adopter111]

Is it actually growing marketshare right now? BB10 is dead and in the Infotainment space they lost Toyota a few years ago, I know they do a lot behind the scenes in cars but AGL is expanding into that too.

Self driving technology could change that though of course. I don't know much about their other industries.



Keep in mind though that BlackBerry wants to build licensing revenue, in the Reuters article I linked to in my previous post Chen even says he wants it to match their enterprise software business one day. If BB Android revenue is falling then they'll need something to replace it with.

From this perspective, if BlackBerry is able to get even $1 per PKB device (I'm sure they could get more but perhaps not as much as they get on Key devices) that could still be substantial with volume. A company like TCL could leverage that PKB tech across Android and KaiOS with a more competitive price point (all speaking hypothetically of course).

It's impossible to know, but, I would think that if the amount is anything less than about $10M guaranteed, that BlackBerry wouldn't even waste time on a meeting. That's probably the minimum threshold at this point. If TCL offers a guaranteed minimum, BlackBerry Limited might consider a low per unit price.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Chen even says...

Chen says lot's of things that he would like to happen... without him having to invest very much into it. BB10 as a 3rd Platform, Small Bold like devices, Licensing of IP....

The article you quoted was from two years ago... try finding what Chen's said lately about smartphones and licensing. There is your clue....

The two main guys responsible for devices and licensing back in 2017 are gone.... and BlackBerry isn't talking about phones anymore.

[Invictus0]

Chen says lot's of things that he would like to happen... without him having to invest very much into it. BB10 as a 3rd Platform, Small Bold like devices, Licensing of IP....

The article you quoted was from two years ago... try finding what Chen's said lately about smartphones and licensing. There is your clue....

The two main guys responsible for devices and licensing back in 2017 are gone.... and BlackBerry isn't talking about phones anymore.

OP was referring to patents which I think BlackBerry is still interested in licensing. If their licensing business doesn't work out I think that would be a bigger deal than some interview soundbites that never amounted to much.

[the_boon]

OP was referring to patents which I think BlackBerry is still interested in licensing.

The problem is, will BB license the patents for a price that someone, anyone is realistically willing to pay?

[Chuck Finley69]

The problem is, will BB license the patents for a price that someone, anyone is realistically willing to pay?

Is their even a price worth paying? With such low sales volumes, this could be the real problem.

[Bbnivende]

Total antithesis of a BlackBerry:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14843...and-no-buttons

[Sigewif]

Total antithesis of a BlackBerry:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14843...and-no-buttons

Sorry but that looks as though it would be like holding a slippery fish to hold it in your hands. It is so much about looks and so little about practicality. I guess it is an aspect of human nature to be attracted to the shiny thing instead of that which is practical. I anticipate that a phone like this would need a bulky case to protect it.

[WES51]

Here's a graph I made with BB and then BBMo total yearly sales. You can see why the trend line would be a massive concern:

[IMG=911x564]https://i.imgur.com/5TqfXur.jpg[/url]

Looks like a lot of disapointed customers, who gave Blackberry a last try before ditching it forever.

Says much about all the spinning BS on this site too.

Thanks to all the fanatic fanboys, warriors and fast typing defenders of Blackberry, who almost as part of a tradition, were not ready to show any support to any arising member/customer concerns and kept pushing the customer to accept the issues instead.

Customers have reacted - that is all.
Now everybody looses!

And YES, call me naive, call me whatever you want, but I DO BELIEVE that MAYBE, maybe if those fanatic fanboys stayed out of spinning, correcting, valid custoner/member concerns, then Blackberry would have had at least a CHANCE to react to those concerns.

[Chuck Finley69]

Looks like a lot of disapointed customers, who gave Blackberry a last try before ditching it forever.

Says much about all the spinning BS on this site too.

Thanks to all the fanatic fanboys, warriors and fast typing defenders of Blackberry, who almost as part of a tradition, were not ready to show any support to any arising member/customer concerns and kept pushing the customer to accept the issues instead.

Customers have reacted - that is all.
Now everybody looses!

And YES, call me naive, call me whatever you want, but I DO BELIEVE that MAYBE, maybe if those fanatic fanboys stayed out of spinning, correcting, valid custoner/member concerns, then Blackberry would have had at least a CHANCE to react to those concerns.

How so?

[Sigewif]

Looks like a lot of disapointed customers, who gave Blackberry a last try before ditching it forever.

Says much about all the spinning BS on this site too.

Thanks to all the fanatic fanboys, warriors and fast typing defenders of Blackberry, who almost as part of a tradition, were not ready to show any support to any arising member/customer concerns and kept pushing the customer to accept the issues instead.

Customers have reacted - that is all.
Now everybody looses!

And YES, call me naive, call me whatever you want, but I DO BELIEVE that MAYBE, maybe if those fanatic fanboys stayed out of spinning, correcting, valid custoner/member concerns, then Blackberry would have had at least a CHANCE to react to those concerns.

I am not disappointed in the devices I have purchased. I have grimaced at some of the hyperbolic comments by people who were not happy, many of whom miss BB10. I have had positive experiences with my recent devices--even when the screen came out of my silver KEYone after owning it for almost 2 years. It was repaired free of charge, no questions asked.

I still want a KEY3 or other new BlackBerry device. Yogi Berra, for those who know who he is, (well known US baseball player and manager) famously said, "it ain't over till it's over."

[bb10adopter111]

Looks like a lot of disapointed customers, who gave Blackberry a last try before ditching it forever.

Says much about all the spinning BS on this site too.

Thanks to all the fanatic fanboys, warriors and fast typing defenders of Blackberry, who almost as part of a tradition, were not ready to show any support to any arising member/customer concerns and kept pushing the customer to accept the issues instead.

Customers have reacted - that is all.
Now everybody looses!

And YES, call me naive, call me whatever you want, but I DO BELIEVE that MAYBE, maybe if those fanatic fanboys stayed out of spinning, correcting, valid custoner/member concerns, then Blackberry would have had at least a CHANCE to react to those concerns.

Personally, I believe in trying to "save" BlackBerry by going to Android, we accepted a cure worse than the disease. Other than the PKB, everything that made a BlackBerry a BlackBerry is long gone.

My KEYone in no way feels like a BlackBerry. It's just an Android phone with a PKB. BB10 is the last BlackBerry OS. The Droid Berry Frankenstein is little more than an interesting experiment as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather mourn the death of BB10 than pretend it lives on in the reanimated monster that is BlackBerry Android.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[Sigewif]

Personally, I believe in trying to "save" BlackBerry by going to Android, we accepted a cure worse than the disease. Other than the PKB, everything that made a BlackBerry a BlackBerry is long gone.

My KEYone in no way feels like a BlackBerry. It's just an Android phone with a PKB. BB10 is the last BlackBerry OS. The Droid Berry Frankenstein is little more than an interesting experiment as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather mourn the death of BB10 than pretend it lives on in the reanimated monster that is BlackBerry Android.

Posted with my trusty Z10

The keyboard is very important to me. I am glad I have been able to have these devices. I needed an android device for certain apps that we use for our business.
I don't know what I will do if they are no more forthcoming. Not all keyboards are alike. I think the KEY2 keyboard is excellent. I doubt that any wannabe BlackBerry clone that comes along will be able to match it. I could be wrong, but I notice the difference between the KEY2 and my KEYone which I still use. So how would a pkb phone from a company that can't use the BlackBerry IP be able to even come close?
Frankenstein? Monster? C'mon, now. That is indeed what I call hyperbole. They aren't worse than the other options out there.
PS I know it was hard to see bb10 go but I have appreciated these android BlackBerrys. I have had 3. (Priv, KEYone and KEY2).

[pdr733]

Looks like a lot of disapointed customers, who gave Blackberry a last try before ditching it forever.

Says much about all the spinning BS on this site too.

Thanks to all the fanatic fanboys, warriors and fast typing defenders of Blackberry, who almost as part of a tradition, were not ready to show any support to any arising member/customer concerns and kept pushing the customer to accept the issues instead.

Customers have reacted - that is all.
Now everybody looses!

And YES, call me naive, call me whatever you want, but I DO BELIEVE that MAYBE, maybe if those fanatic fanboys stayed out of spinning, correcting, valid custoner/member concerns, then Blackberry would have had at least a CHANCE to react to those concerns.

I get what you are talking about ( I saw people in this board defending and "ideologizing" the pitiful DTEKs - I mean the 50 and 60) but in reality only a fraction of those ever purchasing BB Mobile products ever came here, so the influence of CB fanboys / volunteer OEM spokespeople are certainly exaggerated

[bb10adopter111]

The keyboard is very important to me. I am glad I have been able to have these devices. I needed an android device for certain apps that we use for our business.
I don't know what I will do if they are no more forthcoming. Not all keyboards are alike. I think the KEY2 keyboard is excellent. I doubt that any wannabe BlackBerry clone that comes along will be able to match it. I could be wrong, but I notice the difference between the KEY2 and my KEYone which I still use. So how would a pkb phone from a company that can't use the BlackBerry IP be able to even come close?
Frankenstein? Monster? C'mon, now. That is indeed what I call hyperbole. They aren't worse than the other options out there.
PS I know it was hard to see bb10 go but I have appreciated these android BlackBerrys. I have had 3. (Priv, KEYone and KEY2).

Certainly, if what you care about is a PKB on Android, then the KEY phones have been great. I love the build quality on my KEYone and agree that it's a great Android device, and the KEY2 is even better, from what I have seen.

But the PKB isn't reason enough for me to care about a BlackBerry branded phone. For me, BlackBerry was always about a platform focused on composing and editing text, and on being unobtrusive and out of the way the rest of the time.

Unfortunately, the form factor alone can't fix the usability problems Android presents for my preferred method of working. Not enough notification profiles or granular control, a completely useless LED, a Hub that doesn't flow properly to switch between accounts one-sided, and a writing interface that is cluttered and distracting. None of these are Blackberry's fault, as they governed by Android's rules. and that's my point.

For an Android phone, I like the KEY phones just fine, but for this user, a VKB on BB10 offers better functionality in 2019 for everyday use. I carry the KEYone for the apps and the mobile browse (I LOVE having Firefox Focus handy!), but that is only a very small part of my day, so I have to double carry my BB10 phone to maintain my effectiveness.

I agree that the KEY phones aren't worse than the other options when it comes to new hardware, but that's an extremely low bar. The reference to Frankenstein's monster is about the way they mangle the BBOS/BB10 work-oriented priorities by patching together features that have lost their original vitality.

[Sigewif]

Certainly, if what you care about is a PKB on Android, then the KEY phones have been great. I love the build quality on my KEYone and agree that it's a great Android device, and the KEY2 is even better, from what I have seen.

But the PKB isn't reason enough for me to care about a BlackBerry branded phone. For me, BlackBerry was always about a platform focused on composing and editing text, and on being unobtrusive and out of the way the rest of the time.

Unfortunately, the form factor alone can't fix the usability problems Android presents for my preferred method of working. Not enough notification profiles or granular control, a completely useless LED, a Hub that doesn't flow properly to switch between accounts one-sided, and a writing interface that is cluttered and distracting. None of these are Blackberry's fault, as they governed by Android's rules. and that's my point.

For an Android phone, I like the KEY phones just fine, but for this user, a VKB on BB10 offers better functionality in 2019 for everyday use. I carry the KEYone for the apps and the mobile browse (I LOVE having Firefox Focus handy!), but that is only a very small part of my day, so I have to double carry my BB10 phone to maintain my effectiveness.

I agree that the KEY phones aren't worse than the other options when it comes to new hardware, but that's an extremely low bar. The reference to Frankenstein's monster is about the way they mangle the BBOS/BB10 work-oriented priorities by patching together features that have lost their original vitality.

The short answer is that the pkb is not the only feature I care about. I appreciate a lot of the other features as well. But a quality pkb is especially important.

[bb10adopter111]

The short answer is that the pkb is not the only feature I care about. I appreciate a lot of the other features as well. But a quality pkb is especially important.

I respect that. In my case, the PKB doesn't matter much one way or the other. I was a hardcore BlackBerry PKB user from 2004-13 and have been a hard core BlackBerry VKB fan from 2013-2019.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[WES51]

How so?

Unfortunately instead of trying to be inclusive and recognizing the value of member feedback on this forum for what it is, the largest and most powerful real world focus group for Blackberry, criticizing group members for their stated needs and requests has become all too common.

This divide and concur attitude could only lead to smaller and smaller groups and that is exactly what happened.

So now, in the end, the busy fanboys finally got what they wanted. Except that apparently now there aren't enough people left to support their idea. They kept marginalizing others until they were left by themselves and now their numbers aren't enough to keep the brand going.