12-02-16 06:46 AM
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  1. Legellan's Avatar
    Just look to they Pixel. It has no OIS and it looks like it goes toe to toe with most smartphone cameras.

    OIS will also help in low light picture shots as any movement in your hand will degrade the shot.

    Let hope they do a good job with the image processing and software too. That can be as important as OIS
    10-26-16 07:46 AM
  2. tickerguy's Avatar
    OIS only helps CAMERA shake. It does exactly ZERO if the subject is moving, and anything that lives or is subject to wind IS MOVING. I have it on my dSLR lenses (most anyway) and while it helps, especially in low light, it is not a panacea. Where it is *most* helpful is in video mode.
    10-26-16 08:01 AM
  3. tonythecanuck's Avatar
    Hey...I am not a Techie. Question? Why does the Priv Camera has the German company Schneider-Kreuznach on exterior of the glass if it is a Sony camera?
    Schneider-Kreuznach made the lens. They are a top German lens maker. Sony made the sensor behind the lens. It is the sensor that captures the light from the lens to make the picture.

    I love the 18MP camera on the Priv. I hope the camera(s) on the DTEK60 is better.... Would appreciate any reviews!
    Bay 13 likes this.
    10-27-16 07:50 AM
  4. tonythecanuck's Avatar
    Here are some DTEK60 vs Priv camera hardware factoids....

    -DTEK60 is 21MP, Priv is 18MP (both actually use the same Sony sensor, but Priv's optics were designed for a slightly smaller 16MP sensor originally, and so when we made a switch over during development to a newer generation 21MP sensor, the corners were not fully covered. Hence the unique 18MP resolution)

    -Priv has OIS, and DTEK60 does not. OIS helps extend exposure time and reduce blur induced by hand-shake in photos. Allows Priv to get the same sharpness at 1/10s exposure time as DTEK60 gets at 1/30s. There will be a bit more noise on the DTEK60 than the Priv for this reason. That said, and as someone alluded to above, OIS doesn't help at all if your subject is moving -- on Passport, we actually let exposure time drop to 1/5.. noise performance was great, but we had some negative feedback when people tried to take pictures of their kids who wouldn't sit still in low light

    -DTEK60 uses zero-shutter-lag mode. Priv does not. This leads to a drastic improvement in capture speed -- I measured Priv at 720ms with the latest camera app, and DTEK60 at 170ms! (measured from the moment your finger leaves the shutter button to the moment the picture is displayed in the thumbnail window). It feels VERY VERY fast!

    -AF performance -- Priv should win out here since it doesn't use zero-shutter-lag mode, it can run the viewfinder almost twice the framerate that DTEK60 does, and so focus is faster in bright conditions. In dimmer light, they will perform about the same.

    -Both have dual-tone LED flashes, but Priv's are more powerful, and so you can get more light onto subjects further away from the lens.

    -Both support full manual controls - ISO, shutter speed, white balance, focus, exposure compensation.

    -Both support up to 4K video @ 30fps, 1080p @ 60fps, and 720p @ 120fps slow motion.

    -and of course, DTEK60 has an 8MP selfie camera, vs the 2MP one on Priv.

    On a non-camera note, the Snapdragon 820 processor in the DTEK60 has better performance than the 808 in the Priv, and is much better thermally.
    OK, thanks very much for the info!

    The 18MP camera on my Priv is fantastic and I get a lot of compliments on my photos! The Schneider-Kreuznach lens seems to make a huge difference!

    Not sure the DTEK60 is a step up, but really would like a better selfie camera!
    HabsSuck likes this.
    10-27-16 07:58 AM
  5. Bay 13's Avatar
    Schneider-Kreuznach made the lens. They are a top German lens maker. Sony made the sensor behind the lens. It is the sensor that captures the light from the lens to make the picture.

    I love the 18MP camera on the Priv. I hope the camera(s) on the DTEK60 is better.... Would appreciate any reviews!
    Yea, I did some research on Schneider-Kreuznach-They have a very good rep as a lens maker. I do not think they would attach their name on a bad product. My brother who has a Iphone 6s out of the blue gave props to the Priv Camera saying it is just as good as his photos. It appears the Priv was crafted with some high end parts (Samsung screen, the camera lens and the keyboard). I do not regret paying $650.00 usd. Quality product. Dtek60 looks good...I hope the camera produce equivalent photos to the Priv,
    tonythecanuck likes this.
    10-27-16 09:13 AM
  6. slagman5's Avatar
    OIS *mostly* helps video. It is of benefit for still shots too, but not nearly as much.

    Let's go over (quickly) what OIS does and how it works. OIS places a voice-coil around one or more of the lens elements, much like that used for a speaker. The gyro in the phone is energized and the voice-coil is used to attempt to keep the image cast by the lens in the same place on the sensor (by moving its focal point left/right/up/down) even though the handset itself is moving slightly.

    To get a good image the projection of the image by the lens on the sensor must not move during the time the shutter is open. If it does then the image is blurred, even if it is in proper focus. OIS allows for a *stationary* object to be captured at a slower shutter speed than is otherwise possible because it works to help nullify (within its operating range) camera shake. This in turn translates into superior lower-light performance for non-moving subjects, all other things being equal.

    OIS does exactly *zero* to improve the ability to shoot any subject that is moving. This includes essentially any shot of people in "real life" (e.g. anything other than a "posed shot"), shots of animals, sports, etc.

    Where OIS *really* matters is when shooting video because ideally when shooting video you want a relatively low (1/30th to 1/60th) shutter speed. Higher shutter speeds look unnatural, almost robotic. But that relatively low shutter speed means *any* movement of the camera translates into a "shaky" video and since a smartphone is a small device it's very hard to hold it completely still, or when panning such a shot to do so smoothly.

    Remember, however, that OIS increases the complexity of the camera assembly since the voice coil on the lens is an additional moving part, it makes the camera materially more-susceptible to damage from physical shock and it increases the camera module's size. Nonetheless it is a good thing.

    Will the lack of OIS hinder camera performance? In some circumstances, yes, but not nearly as much as you might think. The far-bigger improvement in modern smartphone cameras over OIS came when they figured out how to do PDAF (phase detection autofocus) entirely in-sensor, a capability that used to be available only through dedicated focus sensors in a dSLR. PDAF is important for quick and accurate focus lock because it allows the camera to know which direction to move the focusing elements to achieve focus and by how much in a single action, rather than having to use successive-approximation which is how the previous (contrast-detection) method worked.
    Wow, very detailed description of OIS. One interesting note about it is if you have your phone or camera mounted on a tripod, turn IS off since if the camera/phone is completely still the IS would actually do the opposite and make a still image move slightly and become blurry. Just figure I share that in case anyone had trouble getting a good night shot using a tripod because of it...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    10-27-16 10:00 AM
  7. slagman5's Avatar
    I'm a photography hobbist and I do feel that camera tech is very important in modern smartphones.

    I don't think the dtek60 camera will be any better compared to the priv for multiple reasons.

    Packed sensor 21mpx vs 18mpx, this means that the low light gathering potential of each pixel is reduced.

    Most of the flagships now use only 12mpx larger sensors for this exact reason.

    Lack of OIS means faster shutter speeds which is not good for static low light photography.

    Again almost all flagships have OIS including blackberry since the passport. Even the smaller iphone7 now includes OIS.

    The lens and sensor combo is not nearly as impressive as the privs with its scheneider lens.

    The aperture of the lens is 2.0 vs 1.8 or lower compared to other flagships too.

    Also the camera sensor used it's a Sony IMX230 which is already 2 years old.

    But I hope I'll be surprised, in the end hardware is half the story. The software will decide if it's a decent enough shooter. But I won't be on the top end of DXO mark results eitherway.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Yah, a marketing gimmick a lot of people seem to fall for, the whole more MP means better quality myth. Pixel density is very important, in that the lower the density the better like you've stated... Aperture is also really important like you pointed out as well (lower number is better, means larger possible opening, can take low-light pictures better). I have a prime lens I use sometimes for low-light that is 1.8 but there is a more expensive one I want to eventually get that is 1.4...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    10-27-16 10:08 AM
  8. slagman5's Avatar
    I would expect them to be similar in the quality of image they produce, with a modest advantage in video​ mode going to the Priv (due to OIS)

    If the DTEK60 was to offer "RAW" mode, however, then for stills the game changes. RAW mode is always superior IF you can and wish to post-process because the down-sampling to JPEG always produces loss of data information that can never be recovered. You can recover very acceptable results from a RAW file that has exposure or subject-contrast problems to a surprising degree; that's usually impossible with a JPEG.

    You can never get back lost information, basically. Elements of an image that are either beyond all-white (blown out) or all-black (shadows that are lost) are forever gone always, but image compression, simply due to how it works, removes detail information and once gone, it's gone. RAW files are obviously unusable directly but being able to shoot with both being saved (as I can do on my 5d3) would be very nice. With my dSLR I never shoot in anything other than RAW and I live with the compromise that I must dump to a computer and process before I can use what I take. I wouldn't do that with RAW mode in a phone, obviously, but being able to capture *both* (so I can "immediately" share and post-process later if I wish) would be awesome, especially if I could save to different directories (and thus have, for example, Dropbox upload one but not the other)
    Raw is definitely awesome. When using my DSLR, whenever the lighting is not optimal, I always use raw mode and post-process the photo.

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    10-27-16 10:11 AM
  9. slagman5's Avatar
    Although that would be cool I doubt it's gonna happen buddy.

    The ability to shoot in RAW is extremely niche as far as commercial smartphones are concerned.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Isn't it a software thing though? Couldn't an Android camera app be made to save the raw image or does the hardware affect if that's possible?

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    10-27-16 10:12 AM
  10. slagman5's Avatar
    What you don't think Instagram or FaceBook is working on allowing uploads of RAW images?

    I agree, if you are worried about lose image information and shooting in RAW mode... Then per DxOMark you should be using an iPhone 7 Plus or even better the Google Pixel. I know many enthusiast love tweaking images, and that RAW files are the best basis for doing that. But then you might as well start with the best camera hardware, and that won't be found on a TCL phone.
    I know you were joking, but you wouldn't want to upload images in raw format anyway because unprocessed raw images are always a little out of wack.

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    10-27-16 10:13 AM
  11. Resilience's Avatar
    the priv is the perfect blackberry that shows why they failed in hardware. overpriced for the specs it came with.
    It is the design of the that killed the priv, manufacturing cost were too high.
    10-27-16 02:50 PM
  12. tonythecanuck's Avatar
    Thanks for your advices. I think I'll wait for some credible reviews. I hope it will have optical image stabilization. We have three young children and I 'm eager to take great pictures and videos of them. If the reviews about the camera are just average, then I'll go for the Priv. My two Brother bought a Priv and the camera really rocks!

    Posted via my old warrior, my BlackBerry Z10!
    Yes, I agree, the 18MP camera on the Priv is fantastic, although the 2MP Selfie camera is poor on the Priv. I was hoping the DTEK60 would have better cameras.
    10-29-16 10:46 AM
  13. tonythecanuck's Avatar
    Yah, a marketing gimmick a lot of people seem to fall for, the whole more MP means better quality myth. Pixel density is very important, in that the lower the density the better like you've stated... Aperture is also really important like you pointed out as well (lower number is better, means larger possible opening, can take low-light pictures better). I have a prime lens I use sometimes for low-light that is 1.8 but there is a more expensive one I want to eventually get that is 1.4...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    It seems that the DTEK60, despite 21MP and 8MP cameras, is actually worse than earlier models like the Priv and Passport.

    I have had both the Passport SE and the Priv, and they both take great pictures with their rear-facing cameras, although their selfie cams are poor. I was hoping the DTEK60 would be better, but I guess not.

    It's sad; sounds like the DTEK60 is an epic fail... I don't understand why BlackBerry doesn't understand that quality cameras are essential, particularly with newer younger consumers. Sounds like the DTEK60 is the nail in the coffin for BlackBerry. Very sad.
    10-30-16 09:15 AM
  14. whatsever's Avatar
    Same post befora bout the camera. The pictures are really sharp from the dtek60. I agree that the dtek50 was worse but with some update's of the software it very good, no probs at all


    Posted via CB10
    10-30-16 09:30 AM
  15. tickerguy's Avatar
    There is no OIS in the DTEK. It does, however, have EIS switchable for video (and yes, it's good that it's switchable as in some circumstances you DO NOT want it on!)

    Note that the Pixel ALSO does not have OIS.
    10-30-16 09:30 AM
  16. tonythecanuck's Avatar
    The 18MP camera on the Priv is excellent with its Schneider-Kreuznach lens. Get many compliments on my pics. The 2MP front facing camera, however, is mediocre.
    10-30-16 10:32 AM
  17. conite's Avatar
    The dx0mark score is out for the DTEK60 camera. Same score as Priv and iPhone 6s.

    https://www.dxomark.com/Mobiles/TCL-...s-nice-camera!
    Last edited by conite; 10-30-16 at 11:04 AM.
    10-30-16 10:46 AM
  18. Egod101's Avatar
    Awe. It says page not found.
    10-30-16 10:51 AM
  19. tickerguy's Avatar
    It's there; the link got shortened and is bad (the exclamation point is truncated by the forum here -- click it and then add a "!" on the end of the link your browser.

    https://www.dxomark.com/Mobiles/TCL-...os-nice-camera

    "The TCL 950 is a new smartphone from Chinese manufacturer TCL (commonly known as Alcatel in the West). Its camera features a 21Mp (5248x3936 pixel) Sony IMX230 sensor, dual-tone LED flash, and 1080p video capture. Achieving an overall DxOMark Mobile score of 82 points, the TCL 950 put in a consistent performance across our still and video image quality tests, achieving sub-scores of 82 for photo and 83 for video.For stills, the TCL 950’s high-resolution 21Mp sensor ensures excellent detail preservation on outdoor pictures, with relatively low levels of noise, making it a good choice for shooting complex and detailed outdoor scenes. Target exposures are generally accurate and repeatable, but when shooting tricky high-contrast scenes, some details in highlights and shadows are lost.

    The TCL 950 does feature a HDR mode to help combat this, but HDR isn’t activated automatically. Nice color rendering ensures vivid and pleasant hues, particularly in outdoor shots, and the TCL 950’s fast and accurate autofocus system works well in all lighting conditions."

    I agree with their baseline conclusion -- the camera tends to underexpose slightly in some conditions, typically by about half a stop. This is correctable in the BlackBerry camera app, however, and BlackBerry can certainly correct it as a baseline in a future camera app release.

    It scored basically identically to the Priv, which is no surprise since they are basically the same camera module.
    10-30-16 11:01 AM
  20. conite's Avatar
    Awe. It says page not found.
    Try again.
    10-30-16 11:10 AM
  21. playbookster's Avatar
    So far I like the dtek60 camera better. More accurate colours, much faster, wider angle lens so you get more in the shot.
    10-30-16 12:07 PM
  22. Bla1ze's Avatar
    So far I like the dtek60 camera better. More accurate colours, much faster, wider angle lens so you get more in the shot.
    It's because the DTEK60 is using the IMX230 as it was supposed to while the Priv is using it cut down to 18MP.
    10-30-16 12:34 PM
  23. playbookster's Avatar
    It's because the DTEK60 is using the IMX230 as it was supposed to while the Priv is using it cut down to 18MP.
    That would explain it. Did they cut it down for performance? the DTEK60 shots are in the 6mb range while Priv are 4mb.
    10-30-16 12:46 PM
  24. nicemsp's Avatar
    I have had the dtek60 for a couple of days now, I'm a big phone and camera enthusiast. I've had s6 edge, nexus 6p, iphone 6s plus in the past year and I must say the dtek60 camera performance is very poor. In anything other than outdoor bright lighting the camera really struggles. Often misses focus and you have to take the same shot 3-4 times to get one that is decent. I think it must be a software thing because the camera is just so poor at focusing. Hopefully blackberry fixes this soon. (yes I have the capture after focusing option enabled).
    so crow likes this.
    10-30-16 12:50 PM
  25. tonythecanuck's Avatar
    I have had the dtek60 for a couple of days now, I'm a big phone and camera enthusiast. I've had s6 edge, nexus 6p, iphone 6s plus in the past year and I must say the dtek60 camera performance is very poor. In anything other than outdoor bright lighting the camera really struggles. Often misses focus and you have to take the same shot 3-4 times to get one that is decent. I think it must be a software thing because the camera is just so poor at focusing. Hopefully blackberry fixes this soon. (yes I have the capture after focusing option enabled).
    Wow, thanks for the review. This is what I was afraid of. I have the Priv, which takes great photos. Had hoped the DTEK60 might be at least as good..... Maybe not...
    10-30-16 12:56 PM
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