01-15-18 06:41 AM
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  1. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    We would need exploding batteries to get attention.

    Just remember this: Always give your money to those that treat you best.

    I, too, bought a DTEK60 from a failing brand.* It was a mistake. Voting with your money and warning others is denying them the sales that justify their existence.


    *To the regular apologists here: Please don't tell me how BBMo/TCL has nothing to do with old BB. I get it. We all get it. Please don't repeat. It's getting old.
    Then why do you keep bringing it up?
    Smokeaire likes this.
    01-10-18 06:26 AM
  2. tonycanuck's Avatar
    Thank you very much. I live in Ontario and the dealer's store was expropriated so I guess small claims is next if it doesn't get fixed. Much obliged.
    OK, good. Small Claims Court information for Ontario is available on line, including necessary forms and procedures.

    Ontario Small Claims run up to $25,000, whereas in Quebec the limit is $15,000. You may be able to ask for additional punitive damages as well.

    Note: You must first negotiate and send a "demand letter" to the merchant indicating "without prejudice" before filing a claim. You must show you attempted to resolve the situation before heading to court. You must also show you followed warranty procedures if applicable.

    Note 2: You must identify the correct legal name of the defendant when suing. Look it up on line with the ministry registry.

    Note 3: "Winning" in court is one thing. If the defendant is bankrupt, you may have trouble collecting.
    ufmh likes this.
    01-10-18 11:10 AM
  3. dirk_ddiggler's Avatar
    Then why do you keep bringing it up?
    I am pre-empting you and a few others here, that's why.
    01-10-18 11:27 AM
  4. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    We would need exploding batteries to get attention.

    Just remember this: Always give your money to those that treat you best.

    I, too, bought a DTEK60 from a failing brand.* It was a mistake. Voting with your money and warning others is denying them the sales that justify their existence.


    *To the regular apologists here: Please don't tell me how BBMo/TCL has nothing to do with old BB. I get it. We all get it. Please don't repeat. It's getting old.
    Since the only thing BB does of real significance going forward is QNX, are you warning us not to buy vehicles incorporating QNX? What brand of current vehicles don't have QNX? What vehicle do you drives?
    01-10-18 12:20 PM
  5. dirk_ddiggler's Avatar
    Since the only thing BB does of real significance going forward is QNX, are you warning us not to buy vehicles incorporating QNX? What brand of current vehicles don't have QNX? What vehicle do you drives?
    Wut?
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    01-10-18 01:24 PM
  6. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Wut?
    You stated "Voting with your money and warning others is denying them the sales that justify their existence."

    I stated "Since the only thing BB does of real significance going forward is QNX, are you warning us not to buy vehicles incorporating QNX? What brand of current vehicles don't have QNX? What vehicle do you drive?"

    The only real sales you can deny BB are in their existing business lines and I asked regarding those business lines, further explanations.
    01-10-18 01:27 PM
  7. dirk_ddiggler's Avatar
    You stated "Voting with your money and warning others is denying them the sales that justify their existence."

    I stated "Since the only thing BB does of real significance going forward is QNX, are you warning us not to buy vehicles incorporating QNX? What brand of current vehicles don't have QNX? What vehicle do you drive?"

    The only real sales you can deny BB are in their existing business lines and I asked regarding those business lines, further explanations.
    This is just another way for you to say BB != BBMo/TCL. I will remind you that TCL built this phone, they chose the battery, they contracted with service centers that are not delivering service, and now they own what remains of it and no-one cares how much BB paid TCL to handle this service or what the contractual arrangements look like.
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    01-10-18 01:41 PM
  8. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    This is just another way for you to say BB != BBMo/TCL. I will remind you that TCL built this phone, they chose the battery, they contracted with service centers that are not delivering service, and now they own what remains of it and no-one cares how much BB paid TCL to handle this service or what the contractual arrangements look like.
    No it's not. You preempted me on that. You forget that I own two DTEK. I didn't get the usual decent value from them which I'm used too. Since my devices involved repairs that may not be covered by warranties, my cost/benefit analysis didn't justify dealing with BBMo/TCL since of all the horror stories I read on here about them in Canada. I've read great stories about them in USA, where I'm at, but I don't believe all I read from either side believing my experience will be somewhere in between.

    I only bought factory unlocked from BB when I couldn't buy through AT&T first. BB had never impressed me servicewise and I've got a decent account with AT&T. People wrote about problems with Digital River that ran logistics of ShopBlackBerry. I bought Z30, Leap, 50 and 60 all through ShopBlackBerry. Never had a problem with Digital River.

    The disappointment I have with my DTEK phones is with the actual quality of the hardware. But, I gave money to BB. They sold me the device. They controlled transaction and they sold what TCL made for them. I hold BB responsible. So tell me, how do I avoid doing business with BB? How do I punish them?

    I bought my KEYone through AT&T because they've committed their own sins, just not to me. However, I don't think BBMo/TCL has built infrastructure. So I pay AT&T for their infrastructure already so I'll let them handle problems for me.
    01-10-18 04:21 PM
  9. rcab's Avatar
    Blackberry provides the software to TCL. BlackBerry as license the name to TCL. BlackBerry is a software company. So BlackBerry is still involved with phones. BlackBerry provided a warranty to their customers. While under warranty BlackBerry replaced my phone and likewise for others. At the same time based on postings here some others did not get the same quality service. So BlackBerry or TCL needs to step up and take care of these problems. I too bought PRIV and both Dtek's from BlackBerry because I had opposite experience with AT&T concerning providing timely updates for prior BlackBerry phones. Both companies have failed to communicate with owners of phones carrying BlackBerry name. So you can be a happy camper but doesn't mean everyone else has to have the same opinion that you have. I own stock in BlackBerry and if it ever gets back to the price I bought it then I will sell. I believe better communication by both companies would increase a healthier feeling for future customers.
    01-10-18 06:24 PM
  10. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Blackberry provides the software to TCL. BlackBerry as license the name to TCL. BlackBerry is a software company. So BlackBerry is still involved with phones. BlackBerry provided a warranty to their customers. While under warranty BlackBerry replaced my phone and likewise for others. At the same time based on postings here some others did not get the same quality service. So BlackBerry or TCL needs to step up and take care of these problems. I too bought PRIV and both Dtek's from BlackBerry because I had opposite experience with AT&T concerning providing timely updates for prior BlackBerry phones. Both companies have failed to communicate with owners of phones carrying BlackBerry name. So you can be a happy camper but doesn't mean everyone else has to have the same opinion that you have. I own stock in BlackBerry and if it ever gets back to the price I bought it then I will sell. I believe better communication by both companies would increase a healthier feeling for future customers.
    Carriers were never as quick supposedly as factory with updates but that's converged somewhat in the last year or two. As BB shareholder, you know that stock is now way up because of dumping hardware. Not really sure where you get I'm a happy camper, I just can't punish the company that's responsible since in essence, they dumped or broke up with me. I'm dating BBMo and she's different girl, similar name but different girl.
    01-10-18 06:42 PM
  11. tonycanuck's Avatar
    Any phone shop can replace the battery. It's a simple process.
    That's not true. Two independent repair shops in Montréal, "iRepair" and "UBreakIFix," have both refused to repair the DTEK60 or the Alcatel Idol 4S upon which it is based.
    01-10-18 08:07 PM
  12. tonycanuck's Avatar
    This is just another way for you to say BB != BBMo/TCL. I will remind you that TCL built this phone, they chose the battery, they contracted with service centers that are not delivering service, and now they own what remains of it and no-one cares how much BB paid TCL to handle this service or what the contractual arrangements look like.
    Exactly.
    01-10-18 08:08 PM
  13. conite's Avatar
    That's not true. Two independent repair shops in Montréal, "iRepair" and "UBreakIFix," have both refused to repair the DTEK60 or the Alcatel Idol 4S upon which it is based.
    That's ridiculous. The phone shops here would do it in a heartbeat.

    You can quickly do it yourself too. Plenty of videos on YouTube.
    01-10-18 08:13 PM
  14. dirk_ddiggler's Avatar
    That's not true. Two independent repair shops in Montréal, "iRepair" and "UBreakIFix," have both refused to repair the DTEK60 or the Alcatel Idol 4S upon which it is based.
    What reason did they provide for refusing?
    01-10-18 10:19 PM
  15. tonycanuck's Avatar
    What reason did they provide for refusing?
    Reasons given:

    1) They cannot obtain parts. New batteries for the DTEK60 do not exist since the device is simply an Idol 4S with a BlackBerry badge. There is no official supply chain of parts for this model. They cannot make an official order for the batteries since they do not exist. Putting in an Idol 4S battery is contrary to their corporate policy, would void their 90 day warranty policy, and expose them to liability.

    2) Problems with the DTEK60 are not necessarily related to the battery. They are likely related to the motherboard, which is expensive to replace. I had sent my DTEK60 to the official Canadian Repair Centre (SBE Canada) TWICE and although the second time they claimed to have replaced the battery, my Dtek60 still shut down within an hour on a full charge. Both iRepair and UBreakiFix indicated that changing the battery again may not help anyway.

    3) A "home repair" with an unofficial Idol 4S battery could damage the motherboard. Note also that the DTEK60 has a glass back and is heat sealed. Opening the device requires heat. Moreover, the fingerprint scanner and camera lens are attached to the back. This makes it tricky to open.

    These are their reasons.
    01-11-18 07:13 AM
  16. conite's Avatar

    These are their reasons.
    Then they are idiots.

    There are plenty of brand new OEM batteries for the device. The back panel is the same as most phones these days.

    https://www.batterycanada.com/tlp030f1.asp
    01-11-18 07:17 AM
  17. dirk_ddiggler's Avatar
    These are their reasons.
    I agree, they are idiots. Get yourself a battery and take it to one of the phone repair shops.
    At least in southern California, I see repair shops all over: as standalone businesses in strip malls, kiosks in the big malls, and I even see one in Sam's Club.... not just selling devices and phone plans like in Costco, but doing actual repair.
    01-11-18 01:03 PM
  18. tonycanuck's Avatar
    I agree, they are idiots. Get yourself a battery and take it to one of the phone repair shops.
    At least in southern California, I see repair shops all over: as standalone businesses in strip malls, kiosks in the big malls, and I even see one in Sam's Club.... not just selling devices and phone plans like in Costco, but doing actual repair.
    The authorized Alcatel Repair Centre in Canada (SBE Canada) claims on their repair form that they have already replaced the battery, which did nothing to help. I in fact doubt that they actually replaced the battery.

    I have already tried independent repair shops here in Montreal, Canada, but they are all refusing to replace the battery or repair the DTEK60 for several reasons:

    1) They cannot obtain OEM parts. New batteries for the DTEK60 do not exist since the device is simply an Idol 4S with a BlackBerry badge. There is no official supply chain of parts for this model. They cannot make an official order for the batteries since they do not exist. Putting in an Idol 4S battery is contrary to their corporate policy, would void their 90 day warranty policy, and expose them to liability.

    2) Problems with the DTEK60 are not necessarily related to the battery. They are likely related to the motherboard, which is expensive to replace. I had sent my DTEK60 to the official Canadian Repair Centre (SBE Canada) TWICE and although the second time they claimed to have replaced the battery, my Dtek60 still shut down within an hour on a full charge. Both iRepair and UBreakiFix indicated that changing the battery again may not help anyway.

    3) A "home repair" with an unofficial Idol 4S battery could damage the motherboard. Note also that the DTEK60 has a glass back and is heat sealed. Opening the device requires heat. Moreover, the fingerprint scanner and camera lens are attached to the back. This makes it tricky to open.

    This is why I have to fill a lawsuit. It is a complete nightmare.
    ufmh likes this.
    01-11-18 01:16 PM
  19. conite's Avatar
    The authorized Alcatel Repair Centre in Canada (SBE Canada) claims on their repair form that they have already replaced the battery, which did nothing to help. I in fact doubt that they actually replaced the battery.

    I have already tried independent repair shops here in Montreal, Canada, but they are all refusing to replace the battery or repair the DTEK60 for several reasons:

    1) They cannot obtain OEM parts. New batteries for the DTEK60 do not exist since the device is simply an Idol 4S with a BlackBerry badge. There is no official supply chain of parts for this model. They cannot make an official order for the batteries since they do not exist. Putting in an Idol 4S battery is contrary to their corporate policy, would void their 90 day warranty policy, and expose them to liability.

    2) Problems with the DTEK60 are not necessarily related to the battery. They are likely related to the motherboard, which is expensive to replace. I had sent my DTEK60 to the official Canadian Repair Centre (SBE Canada) TWICE and although the second time they claimed to have replaced the battery, my Dtek60 still shut down within an hour on a full charge. Both iRepair and UBreakiFix indicated that changing the battery again may not help anyway.

    3) A "home repair" with an unofficial Idol 4S battery could damage the motherboard. Note also that the DTEK60 has a glass back and is heat sealed. Opening the device requires heat. Moreover, the fingerprint scanner and camera lens are attached to the back. This makes it tricky to open.

    This is why I have to fill a lawsuit. It is a complete nightmare.
    Yes we've seen all that above. It's no less ridiculous now than it was then.

    Go ahead and launch an $80 CDN lawsuit and see how far that gets you. $40 for the battery and $40 to put it in.

    If your time is worth anything, then you've already spent far more than that just complaining about it.
    01-11-18 01:23 PM
  20. dirk_ddiggler's Avatar
    Yes we've seen all that above. It's no less ridiculous now than it was then.

    Go ahead and launch an $80 CDN lawsuit and see how far that gets you. $40 for the battery and $40 to put it in.

    If your time is worth anything, then you've already spent far more than that just complaining about it.
    They can't fix it, so his next stop is a full refund, not $80 CDN. Still not worth it.

    He will most likely need to name all 3 defendants in this, BB, TCL, and the 3rd party service center, because if he doesn't, they will just weasel out of it blaming the other. If he does name all 3, he might ping-pong with the court clerk as they work to establish jurisdiction for all 3, and if he can't, he goes back to the original problem. Plus, if they show up in court (more likely in-fact than just settling with him out of court), then they might run the narrative they did everything in their power, even changing the battery when it wasn't the issue, just to appease the customer. They will paint him as vindictive and unreasonable, and the judge will hand him a loss.

    This is, of course, after he gets his act together and composes a proper demand letter, sends it off, and gives them 30 days to either settle or get another crack at fixing his phone.

    tonycanuck, you are looking at $400+ CDN just for court fees and for serving the 3 defendants. You will probably need 3 different process servers in 3 different cities to server them all, then submit proof to the court. And you will lose this money if you lose your case with the scenario above. Just not worth the risk. Instead, open your favorite browser to craigslist and pick-up a brand new unlocked Essential PH-1 for $375 USD, or a LG G6 for around $300 USD, or a slightly used LG V30 for $500, etc. Or use swappa, etc.
    01-11-18 06:04 PM
  21. tonycanuck's Avatar
    They can't fix it, so his next stop is a full refund, not $80 CDN. Still not worth it.

    He will most likely need to name all 3 defendants in this, BB, TCL, and the 3rd party service center, because if he doesn't, they will just weasel out of it blaming the other. If he does name all 3, he might ping-pong with the court clerk as they work to establish jurisdiction for all 3, and if he can't, he goes back to the original problem. Plus, if they show up in court (more likely in-fact than just settling with him out of court), then they might run the narrative they did everything in their power, even changing the battery when it wasn't the issue, just to appease the customer. They will paint him as vindictive and unreasonable, and the judge will hand him a loss.

    This is, of course, after he gets his act together and composes a proper demand letter, sends it off, and gives them 30 days to either settle or get another crack at fixing his phone.

    tonycanuck, you are looking at $400+ CDN just for court fees and for serving the 3 defendants. You will probably need 3 different process servers in 3 different cities to server them all, then submit proof to the court. And you will lose this money if you lose your case with the scenario above. Just not worth the risk. Instead, open your favorite browser to craigslist and pick-up a brand new unlocked Essential PH-1 for $375 USD, or a LG G6 for around $300 USD, or a slightly used LG V30 for $500, etc. Or use swappa, etc.
    I am a lawyer and MBA, so I know how the justice system works.

    Please do not put forward false or general information that may not apply in all jurisdictions or to all situations.

    In Quebec, the Small Claims Court division is inexpensive and efficient. It is designed to serve ordinary consumers who have no legal training and simply require an inexpensive, fast, and efficient way of preserving their rights.

    A Small Claims filing costs $101 in Quebec. A Small Claim cannot exceed $15,000. (In Ontario Small Claims, amounts cannot exceed $25,000.)

    Québec has both the Civil Code and strong Consumer Protection Laws. An "Implied warranty" attaches automatically to all products sold, and generally exceeds the one year legal warranty offered by a manufacturer. It is therefor not usually necessary to purchase "extra" warranty coverage for a product.

    It is NOT true that a Plaintiff must serve documents on all parties in a supply chain. In Quebec, the Plaintiff may file a claim against the merchant or manufacturer, or both. The Québec Small Claims Court division has clerks that can assist plaintiffs with their filings. The ministry will serve documents on the Defendant on behalf of the Plaintiff. The Plaintiff does not have to worry about service.

    The consumer should nonetheless attempt to resolve the issue prior to litigation. The Consumer should first send a Demand Letter to the merchant, and remain open to negotiation to show good faith. The consumer is expected to also exhaust regular legal warranty provisions for the product. If the Defendant does not respond within a defined period, (usually ten days), then the consumer may decide to sue.

    The defendant then has a short period in which to respond to a Statement of Claim. Moreover, if the Defendant does not appear in court, the Plaintiff wins.

    This process is not about appearing "vindictive." Consumers have a right to protect their legal rights by acting within a limitation period or risk losing their right to compensation.

    Note further that seeking justice is not about "revenge," but about signalling to the public that certain deceptive marketing practises or defective products will not be tolerated.

    Consumers generally have a basic right to purchase products free from hidden defects, and that work as advertised.

    Consumers also have a right to request compensation and damages if they have experienced loss as a result of a defective product.

    Note that it is unconscionable to mislead the public or give false information with regard to a particular legal system or procedure.
    ufmh likes this.
    01-11-18 07:03 PM
  22. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I am a lawyer and MBA, so I know how the justice system works.

    Please do not put forward false or general information that may not apply in all jurisdictions or to all situations.

    In Quebec, the Small Claims Court division is inexpensive and efficient. It is designed to serve ordinary consumers who have no legal training and simply require an inexpensive, fast, and efficient way of preserving their rights.

    A Small Claims filing costs $101 in Quebec. A Small Claim cannot exceed $15,000. (In Ontario Small Claims, amounts cannot exceed $25,000.)

    Québec has both the Civil Code and strong Consumer Protection Laws. An "Implied warranty" attaches automatically to all products sold, and generally exceeds the one year legal warranty offered by a manufacturer. It is therefor not usually necessary to purchase "extra" warranty coverage for a product.

    It is NOT true that a Plaintiff must serve documents on all parties in a supply chain. In Quebec, the Plaintiff may file a claim against the merchant or manufacturer, or both. The Québec Small Claims Court division has clerks that can assist plaintiffs with their filings. The ministry will serve documents on the Defendant on behalf of the Plaintiff. The Plaintiff does not have to worry about service.

    The consumer should nonetheless attempt to resolve the issue prior to litigation. The Consumer should first send a Demand Letter to the merchant, and remain open to negotiation to show good faith. The consumer is expected to also exhaust regular legal warranty provisions for the product. If the Defendant does not respond within a defined period, (usually ten days), then the consumer may decide to sue.

    The defendant then has a short period in which to respond to a Statement of Claim. Moreover, if the Defendant does not appear in court, the Plaintiff wins.

    This process is not about appearing "vindictive." Consumers have a right to protect their legal rights by acting within a limitation period or risk losing their right to compensation.

    Note further that seeking justice is not about "revenge," but about signalling to the public that certain deceptive marketing practises or defective products will not be tolerated.

    Consumers generally have a basic right to purchase products free from hidden defects, and that work as advertised.

    Consumers also have a right to request compensation and damages if they have experienced loss as a result of a defective product.

    Note that it is unconscionable to mislead the public or give false information with regard to a particular legal system or procedure.
    If you bill @ $100/hr which is probably low estimate, isn't this all the more colossal waste of your time and money? I get the principle of the matter, but as MBA holder, doesn't this conflict with your business training?

    I'm being serious and not argumentative. Just curious why all this is worth so much of your time?
    01-11-18 08:53 PM
  23. tonycanuck's Avatar
    If you bill @ $100/hr which is probably low estimate, isn't this all the more colossal waste of your time and money? I get the principle of the matter, but as MBA holder, doesn't this conflict with your business training?

    I'm being serious and not argumentative. Just curious why all this is worth so much of your time?
    I do not bill any thing. I have spent many hours sending my DTEK60 in for repair with no success. I no longer have a choice. Consumers have to register a complaint before the legal limitation period runs out.

    If your new $700 washing machine broke down and the manufacturer refused to honour the warranty, would you simply lie down and accept there's nothing you can do?

    If you purchase an automobile that was a lemon, and lost hundred of dollars, would you simply accept the loss?

    If you purchased a laptop for $700 and it stopped functioning, and the manufacturer refused to honour the warranty, would you simply shrug your shoulders and accept the loss?

    It took a a lot of time and frustration in repeatedly sending in my device under warranty, and receiving lies in return.

    It takes much less time in comparison to write a Demand Letter, and then file a claim in Small Claims Court.
    ufmh and Illuminati5077 like this.
    01-11-18 10:02 PM
  24. conite's Avatar

    If your new $700 washing machine broke down and the manufacturer refused to honour the warranty, would you simply lie down and accept there's nothing you can do?

    If you purchased a laptop for $700 and it stopped functioning, and the manufacturer refused to honour the warranty, would you simply shrug your shoulders and accept the loss?
    I'd spend the $80 (and 30 minutes) and save myself 4 months and countless wasted hours.
    01-11-18 11:05 PM
  25. dirk_ddiggler's Avatar
    ... It takes much less time in comparison to write a Demand Letter, and then file a claim in Small Claims Court.
    Keep us updated on how it goes. Good luck!
    01-11-18 11:35 PM
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