1. Jamie Brahm's Avatar
    Okay, ive been bandying this about in my head.

    This is a flip phone. Half-qwerty, little broader than the pearl flip, empasized backlit numbers for calling. Its chasis is brushed aluminium, its componentry is rubber reinforced, for ultra-toughness. The dialling componentry bypasses the software - so even if your OS crashes, your phone will still call out.

    The OS should also be a solid as possible. Forgoing features if needed for stability, and it should be continued in development for at least a decade - ideally based on existing os's that have been around for awhile, so that the total amount of time spent removing bugs is as long as humanely possible.

    You should ideally, not just be able to drop this phone, but _lightly_ throw it at a hard surface a short distance (so you never have to "baby" it). You should be able also to jam it in your pocket with keys.

    If it has a touch screen, it is graphine based, so it is invulnerable to breakage. The whole phone is light, thin. It has excellent call quality, and comes in 3g and 4g models in different frequencies and formats.

    In addition to the usual trackpad, it features a "voice control" button. You press this button, and tell it what you want. Voice recognition for control interfaces is quite accurate, even with primitive programs on the PC such as "tazti". If it was futher developed (voice control), and used a button (so not accidently triggered, you press the button and then talk), it could make touch screen somewhat redundant, without creating device vulnerability. This voice command feature will be easier to use to access frequently used programs than touch - because it will be customizable - a few words and your in whatever program. That and the trackpad will make the device easy to use even without touch.

    So this thin, hardy, light, ideally designed for voice, texting, email, and portability/pocketability phone has a new set of features apart from the standard smart stuff, that makes it stick out.

    It pairs with everything else. _Well_. It can wi-fi hotspot, or wifi direct. It has bluetooth. It can connect any of these features through either. It can stream, share, act as a wifi drive. You can text, email, call, with it, via other devices. You can use its GPS, whatever, via a watch, google glasses, or a tablet.

    There are apps for it in blackberry, ios, android, windows and glass to faciliate these all functions (probably via a large single app for most of it). So call from your android tablet, skype through your laptop, or watch, ask google glass to connect your call - or to show your gps maps location onscreen.....It is the ultimate network internet of things communicator - as well as being a damn good, solid, light, thin practical phone.

    It will also have a 2.8-3 inch screen, so that while highly pocketable, it can be used as an computer/internet "backup" when away from your tablet, desktop.

    If they have graphene screens by then, it can also have touch - but not if otherwise, because having glass defeats the pragmatism of the design - which as well as making it a damn good phone (the hardiness and portability), also make it ideal as a IOT hub, the part that connects all the other devices to 3g or 4g etc....

    It will also look sleek and modern, to accurately display its novel features, and distiguish it from old generation flips, and old generation smart phones.

    It could also feature a _dual_ secondary set of cameras (low megapixel), spaced apart - for ultra accurate xbox like _3d_ motion/gesture control, rather than for skyping. This again, will create easy, portable UI, that doesn't smash on the ground like a piece of china. And because its 3d, not only will it be more precise, more controllable, it will only pick up near screen gestures, rather than accidental ones.

    Now whether this phone needs, graphene touch, voice commands AND 3d gesture control AND a touch pad is questionable. But one or more of these could make the interface both more useable, and exciting to consumers - and if need be, without a touch screen. The xbox dual camera thing doesnt space the cameras much. Here you could have one on either side of the chasis - making the 3d virtual modelling of the objects quite accurate and quick - and this 3d model would allow for FAR greater accuracy and control than poor single camera gesture controls that really don't add much, in current IOS or android phones. Indeed between this, a trackpad and voice control, the interface would be much more novel and exciting that a touch screen, which is kinda old hat.

    (I suggested this model of human interface to microsoft btw, for windows, and their customer representative said "we don't take unsolicited suggestions" - amusing because a few years later, we saw the first primitive gesture control arise on android....and its still because its single camera, nowhere near as good as it should be)

    Wave your hand slightly near the screen for forward/next or back, or scroll, pinch your fingers, point, tell your phone "browser", "email" "schedule" "call sue", all without needing to touch the screen, navigate complex menus, or smash your phone because it fell out of your pocket or leave greasy marks all over your screen - with the trackpad only as a backup IU.

    And that, would make a nice ad too. Imagine the technophiles with that one. I can see them getting much more excited about a voice and gesture controlled phone than touch, especially if you can actually keep it in your pocket, and it connects effortlessly and powerfully to all other smart devices.
    Last edited by Jamie Brahm; 04-30-14 at 01:10 AM.
    04-30-14 12:41 AM
  2. dna47's Avatar
    Great write up.

    But flip phone? Umm, no! Niet, nada, just no! I mean really, no!

    Blackberry can't sell with all-touch devices and physical keyboard devices.

    If they produce a flip phone it's game over, and not in a good way!

    Just to be clear...flip phone=no...
    04-30-14 02:21 AM
  3. Jamie Brahm's Avatar
    Its what an increasing number of tablet users want, including myself.

    Flip is the ideal form factor for a phone.

    You don't beat your competition by copying them, or making the same old thing, you beat them by innovating with new functional design and aiming for unoccupied markets. Its not time for blackberry to get more conservative - thats a way to blend in with the crowd, lose market share - its time for them to do what they GAINED their market from - novel, practical design.

    The market analysts have predicted that there will be more tablets than laptops in just two years or so.

    In around seven, there will be more tablets than desktops. A cheezeblock fragile mobile then becomes redundant for most people, especially when you add in smart watches (very close to viable), graphene touch screens (I predict the future of touch devices), google glass, smart tvs, and whatever else is around the corner....

    Each of those several hundred dollar devices is made to lose value faster than a computer - so for every person there is out there that owns a smart device - most of them will be replacing them in a few years time. Each time, looking at whats on the market, comparing.

    Its the internet of things that will be the glass behemoths downfall.

    You see you don't need twenty devices that all do exactly the same thing! its redundant. You especially dont want to spend a few hundred dollars on each of them every two to three years. When you have two to three things that are all mobile computers, you want each one to have a very specialized job, to have a very specialized practical function. Rather than each device doing everything, as smartphones currently do, but doing each job poorly (being mobile, being a phone, being a touch computer) - you want each device to do one or two jobs really well. Say a watch might be a fitness aid and audio media player, and able to take calls from your phone. Your phone will be more "phoney" perhaps, but more connected as above - or it might be a folding phablet with a physical keyboard if your an internet junky or workaholic. Your glass might be good at pictures and videoing, and information, but poor for content veiwing like the watch. Each thing instead of doing everything badly, does one or two things really well.

    By the time youve brought your forth or fifth device, in the endless cycle, you may have a tablet, a phone, a powerbook, a watch, god knows - but the novelty is totally gone. And you are increasingly tired of complexity where none is due, and babying the phone like a child or a carton of eggs.

    Suddenly the wow of the glass bohemoth, becomes a moan of boredom. Like, okay, so whats new? Its faster, more ram, so what....what does it really add to my life?

    In that environment, there is _much_ less drive for all phones to be five inch glass monstrosities, and much more drive for it to be a) a viable actual phone b) fully intergrated with anything that might want to use its connection.

    Being a new flip smart, will be an advertising boon.

    Samsung got loads of free advertising for there chinese dual screen android. Same with the limited release smart flip in korea. There are more press entries on them on google, than any other single market phone release, save the credit card sized phones. If it looks sleek (thin and light would help too), and has impressive functions like 3d gesture control and voice control......people will ooh over it.

    I can see headlines all over "blackberry releases new flip phone with gesture and voice controls - intergrates in new ways with other smart devices" *insert youtube demo*

    That has a load more marketing punch and wow factor, if the device looks styley, than yawn, yet another glass touch , or the redesigned bold- plus it reaches out to untouched markets - not only is it both outside and inside blackberries traditional business clientelle, but its a market none of the other phone manufacturers have plundered yet at all.

    If people are skeptic, like yourself, that adds dialogue, impetus, drives talk, and ultimately makes it sell. Same with the dual screen flip in china, or the credit card phones - you want people to react, negatively or positively. The last thing you want is for them not to notice at all.

    In five years we are probably looking at graphene devices. That will make large screen touch device redundant in an off itself (they will scroll, fold, or perhaps ...flip :P).

    In the mean time the ecosystem of the internet of things is starting, and there is room for blackberry to jump right back into the fold, if it plays a hard hand, instead of passing each round.

    Another smart move of course, would be a blackberry smart watch - in terms of business, those are the most likely to get benefit from pairing a phone and watch (outside of other niche applications like fitness), for organising appointments, receiving calls and messages. And if this device has voice control, like the phone, or throught the phone, AND pairs with the phones connection like above - fully hands free baby, doing business +like a boss+
    Last edited by Jamie Brahm; 04-30-14 at 04:58 AM.
    04-30-14 04:17 AM
  4. dna47's Avatar
    I don't want to get into an argument with you know, but flip phone won't sell. Your talking about innovation, but going back to a flip phone is going back 10 years.

    I don't know what tablet users you're talking about, but none of the tablet owners I know including myself want a flip phone to replace their tablet .

    Tablets may die, but that's not because of flip phones with 3inch screens but because phones have now Bigger screens.

    So I don't know what you're talking about.

    Posted via CB10
    04-30-14 04:27 AM
  5. Jamie Brahm's Avatar
    I think you misunderstood. Well, I think quite a bit. In five years a galaxy style device will not sell IMO.

    This is to use _as a phone_, and to link with your tablet/watch/glass/whatever.

    You have a tablet = less likely to want a glass behemoth/micro phablet (like the galaxy), more likely to want a more pragmatic phone (hardy, pocketably, easy to use as a phone)

    Do a google on it, others are saying the same already. And we have barely enter the tip of the tablet iceberg - they are predicted to surpass desktops.

    Same can be said of any number of other smart devices. If you have google glass, and use them all the time, you going to want a samsung galaxy as well? Probably not. Why would you want both? Few have enough need for that to spend 2-400 dollars on each every three years (these devices are designed for limited life)

    And if you have glass, a watch, AND a tablet...you still going to want a galaxy? More and more unlikely. Remembering you have to replace these several hundred dollar devices every few years - the batteries die, the parts are hard to replace and the tech gets too old to run modern software. Computers follow mores law. Even more true of these devices, because they cant be upgraded or easily repaired, and the batteries and storage have strictly limited life.

    The whole novelty of modern smart phones is a phase in a wave of technology that fixed designs cannot keep up with.

    Devices need to specialize, as I outlined above. You don't need five devices that all do the same things poorly (like a galaxy), you want each one to do its particular job well (being mobile, being a phone, being a connectivity hub, being a handy display like a watch, being a handy input and display like glass etc).

    Galaxy style phones are IMO soon to be considered more absurd than a 90's brick phone. their fragility and size is the worst union of design principles. The flip phone however is light, small, pocketable, fits perfectly to your ear and mouth, and answers and closes calls easier than button pressing. Not that this phone needs to be a flip, its just that flip is a more ideal form factor, for something who's display is a secondary feature.
    04-30-14 05:07 AM
  6. Jamie Brahm's Avatar
    BTW, flip android phones are selling well in china, and korea currently. There uniqueness is part of what drives the market interest, and the form looks more professional in business than a device with a large display like the galaxy (primary market for these - just like blackberry)

    The novelty of a smart flip is what made the samsung dual screen w2013 flip get LOADS of press, before it went sell well in that market.

    If you make something that looks like everything else, acts like everything, no one will notice. If lots of people hate it, so long as some love it (and I think it would not be split like that anyway) - and its a market no one else is tapping - thats business honey. Untapped markets are like uncharted unclaimed lands.
    04-30-14 05:21 AM
  7. Jamie Brahm's Avatar
    Interesting side topic, to get off the topic slightly :P

    Actually its amazing to me, even though this is not the intended market, how many people are buying phones that are no longer in production.

    Like the blackberry pearl 2, as one example. Old school nokias, like the s60 and s40 phones still sell well. On my local ebay-like site, you see old discontinued phones sell like hotcakes, people put them up, they always go - often for well over the price of candy bar entry level feature or smart phones (like 200+ sometimes)

    Most companies have a candy bar entry level phone, usually for quite cheap (40 bucks for example!). But people don't want those, they are buying the more feature equipped discontinued phones, seeking them out - paying more for them.

    Many tablet users, like myself, over the fascination with touch in your pocket, wanting a practical phone - but with features. Not some grandad phone, something with net, email, mp3, camera, gps - all the bells if I want to use them - and especially hotspots - almost nothing does this but touch devices. Some of these folks are thinking about, or looking at buying discontinued phones.

    I almost did the same until I found the blackberry curve 9630 - the allure of full smart capabilities in tidy practical package that had all the whistles but no insane size or insane fragility was too much to ignore..even if I wouldn't be emailling, or browsing, or hotspoting all the way down the street to buy milk, its nice to be able to do - occasionally. Sometimes, I go to a freinds place, or to the doctors office, and I don't have my seven inch with me (actually i do usually take it to freinds places - good for sharing media at minimum, via hdmi). I don't _need_ to use a computer, but occasionally it can be nice to pass the time or for some reason.

    Its always good to have some kinda disk too, so you can share files. So for me its like - phone first, then backup mobile PC/hotspot. Not that one needs net/computer all the time! Just handy if you want it.

    And a good camera, text, email and GPS -undeniably important. Anyway, huge plus for me to find there was _one_ phone that did this.

    I digress - Its indeed interesting to see chinese and second hand markets flourishing in the trade of, by modern standard sub-par products, for prices higher than entry level production phones, because the actual contemporary market completely ignores that these buyers exist - indeed ignores that they are growing in number as time goes on with the rising popularity of other smart devices and the passing of the novelty of smart phones - because of this, there are simple phones, and there are smart phones. There are no smart phones that are good at being mobile, and good at being phones first (apart from the curve, when its non-touch - IMO)

    I myself went through about fifty models of discontinued phones (had given up on full smart features, and was going for close to in order to keep size, weight, use as phone and durability sane), before I found the curve, happily - and interestingly when I was thinking about it, I saw it on the scifi show orphan black - product placement I think, but I thought - yeah, that looks exactly like me.

    So yes, just an observation, in my time spent trawling for a phone I actually want (and reading blogs and posts from people who think similar) - there is a portion of people who are not buying through the main phone market anymore, because those phones don't match their needs.

    They might like to run, they might want a decent camera, they might be sick of babying their phone after they have brought there third or fourth one (and broken one or two), like one dude who commented to me on this forum, they might be tablet users who find the screens small anyway, so why bother with the extra inches, but they are out there, and here, on this forum - uncatered for, by any manufacturer of phones (except, to some small degree, blackberry, and that may change).

    That seems very weird to me. People want to buy, why wouldnt there be a phone manufacturer wanting to sell to em?
    Last edited by Jamie Brahm; 04-30-14 at 06:09 AM.
    04-30-14 05:53 AM
  8. dna47's Avatar
    I can see headlines all over "blackberry releases new flip phone with gesture and voice controls - intergrates in new ways with other smart devices" *insert youtube demo*

    First off, voice controls already exits, and gestures? why would you want to make gestures in front of your phone when you can easily tap a button?

    Integrates in new ways [...]: phones have miracast, wi-fi direct, bluetooth, NFC, HDMI. What innovative integration are you talking about

    That has a load more marketing punch and wow factor, if the device looks styley, than yawn, yet another glass touch , or the redesigned bold- plus it reaches out to untouched markets - not only is it both outside and inside blackberries traditional business clientelle, but its a market none of the other phone manufacturers have plundered yet at all.

    Yet again, in my personal opinion, you're wrong: every phone manufacturer in the early 2000s had a flip phone, and most of them have stopped producing them because technology has evolved into bigger candy-bar like touch screens.

    You have a tablet = less likely to want a glass behemoth/micro phablet (like the galaxy), more likely to want a more pragmatic phone (hardy, pocketably, easy to use as a phone)

    Wrong: i have a tablet because i want a bigger screen for *some things*, but that doesn't mean my phone should get smaller. I prefer a 5inch screen phone, easily portable, can fit in my pockets, easily used with one hand than any tablet on the market. Going back to a flip phone with a 3.5 inch screen would never cross my mind to replace my tablet or my phone.

    Do a google on it, others are saying the same already. And we have barely enter the tip of the tablet iceberg - they are predicted to surpass desktops.

    who are these others you're talking about? Some people think that you should button the bottom button on a suit, that doesn't make it true. If I were to only look at CB i'd think that BB10 is the best phone *ever*, that doesn't make it anymore true...so i'm not saying you're the only one who thinks that a flip phone is needed, i'm only saying that if blackberry produces one they're dead.

    Same can be said of any number of other smart devices. If you have google glass, and use them all the time, you going to want a samsung galaxy as well? Probably not. Why would you want both? Few have enough need for that to spend 2-400 dollars on each every three years (these devices are designed for limited life)

    i don't get your point? First off, most people think that google glass looks idiotic on anyone that wears them. I might be missing something but i don't get what that has to do with a flip phone?

    Devices need to specialize, as I outlined above. You don't need five devices that all do the same things poorly (like a galaxy), you want each one to do its particular job well (being mobile, being a phone, being a connectivity hub, being a handy display like a watch, being a handy input and display like glass etc).

    a touch screen phone can do all that in a great way, a flip phone cannot replace a tablet because of the lack of screen real estate. If i had to choose, i'd take a 5inch phone over a combo of a 10inch tablet, a 3inch flip phone and a smartwatch. I prefer a device that can do it all (a large touch screen) than multiple devices that do separate things. But still, i don't understand what that that has to do with a flip-phone?

    Galaxy style phones are IMO soon to be considered more absurd than a 90's brick phone. their fragility and size is the worst union of design principles. The flip phone however is light, small, pocketable, fits perfectly to your ear and mouth, and answers and closes calls easier than button pressing. Not that this phone needs to be a flip, its just that flip is a more ideal form factor, for something who's display is a secondary feature.

    I don't know what kind of pocket you have, but my Z30 fits easily in my pocket. Also, ending a call by pressing the "end call" button is no rocket science. "for something who's display is a secondary feature" that's exactly your problem, you don't seem to understand that phones have as a primary feature the display since it replaces the need of a tablet/desktop computer.

    BTW, flip android phones are selling well in china, and korea currently. There uniqueness is part of what drives the market interest, and the form looks more professional in business than a device with a large display like the galaxy (primary market for these - just like blackberry)


    Maybe the reason they're selling well is because China alone boosts more than 1B in population, so it's easy to have number that says "they're selling well", but what is the percentage of people buying these phones compared to candy bar phones?
    And more professional? IMO, that's not true at all.

    If you make something that looks like everything else, acts like everything, no one will notice. If lots of people hate it, so long as some love it (and I think it would not be split like that anyway) - and its a market no one else is tapping - thats business honey. Untapped markets are like uncharted unclaimed lands.

    have you been living under a rock for the last 10 years? Untapped market? are you kidding me? that's not an untapped market! It's a marked that has evolved from flip-phone to something that is way more practical!
    04-30-14 05:56 AM
  9. Jamie Brahm's Avatar
    First off, voice controls already exits, and gestures? why would you want to make gestures in front of your phone when you can easily tap a button?
    Less arm movement/easier, less screen smudges versus touch, no glass in the screen = not fragile. 3d gesture tracking, with two cameras can track 3d movements, such as moving your hand toward or away from the device, with a hand movement. Two camera systems on computers have been moved into a prototype, the device can track individual 3d finger motions fully accurately. With a proper dual camera, it seems largely much preferable to touch screen, except when you occasionally _need_ pin point accuracy on a 2d surface, which if the UI were different, wouldn't be very often at all, especially if paired with a trackpad or voice, it could be much better to use, in terms of ease of use, amount of function, intuitiveness and accuracy etc.

    the current one camera gesture software and hardware setup on android is utterly pathetic next to what has been acheived on xbox and PC with two.

    Im sure I don't to explain to you that different UI have different merits. Mouse and keyboard is more accurate and quicker for content creation for example. Voice controls exist, but they are not refined, nor central to any OS. The only device that has a refined central voice control is the google glass - and that feature is the only cool thing about the device! tazti on Pc is surprisingly accurate for very undeveloped software that is US centric. Voice control is far more accurate than voice dictation, or voice recognition more generally. And it can be easily customized too. As a business device, it frees the hands. As a personal consumer its more direct - you don't need to enter menus, you just ask for the thing you want.

    phones have miracast, wi-fi direct, bluetooth, NFC, HDMI. What innovative integration are you talking about
    I did explain it prior, although it seems you did not read it. All good. Its much like how samsungs smart watch intergrates with their phones - you can do calls, take texts etc, via the watch, even though its the phone with those capacities, not the watch. A mere network protocol doesn't acheive any software intergration or functional device communication. Add the typical wifi direct, hotspots, creating network shares via wifi direct (not sure if you can do this or not) - to intergrate smart watches, other phones, glass, tablets to the phone more intimately. Think internet of things. ATM all that exists is the network protocols, very little of the actual intergration of devices. The intergration is where the magic happens.

    Yet again, in my personal opinion, you're wrong: every phone manufacturer in the early 2000s had a flip phone, and most of them have stopped producing them because technology has evolved into bigger candy-bar like touch screens.
    In my personal opinion, that occured due to pure novelty/fashion (look at how apple took off, then crashed, and now windows phone has taken off and will probably crash, theres a momentary "hey look at this" factor) - and a vacuum of other mobile alternatives - the iphone came to the market before the ipad. Smart phones took off before tablets. Nothing to do with technology really, its just that smart phones "blew up" as a device. The form factor is inferior for making phone calls.

    Folding screens, wearables, tablets, this all changes the game. As does people getting used to the idea of the 2-400 dollars every three or so years for every smart device they own. If tablets outnumber PCs, as is predicted will happen by business analysts again and again - most people who have a computer will have a phone and a tablet instead of a desktop- thats a couple hundred dollars times two every three years if the phone is a touchscreen phone. Even if that was practically useful, would it be economic for everyone with a computer? What about if you add a smart TV, and a watch? What about those that have a smart tie pin? And a desktop PC? At some point the overlap in functions, and the cost make the product people choose a matter of specialization - they will select those things with most practical use. That is not going to be a master of none smart phone for everyone, even if you assume its most people, its not rocket science to figure out the smart phone market is receeding, given a) saturation b) numerous growing markets and future products with overlap in function.

    its a bit like the old desktop. They will always exist. As will mainframes. They have a purpose that a tablet, laptop, or smart phone can never replication - they have their "niche". But people will buy less of them because they no longer need that niche.

    They want the tablet niche, or the smart phone niche, or the smart watch niche, or the powerbook - or the talking shoes, or smart home, or smart TV, or AI mainframe or whatever.

    The same is true of the smart phone, and any other device in that increasingly complex ecosystem of what will be interacting devices. As the devices interact more, indeed there is less need to have a large display in your pocket - go to work, your phone can display on your monitor there. At home, on the TV or monitor. At your freinds place, it can display on their tablet. The only place you then need a display, is when you are away from any residence or away from any other display - and that is increasingly less useful over time, and because it cost money, "pocket real estate", and the devices are fragile...well I am pretty sure this is all obvious by now. Some people may need it, some may love it, but the utility decreases, broadly speaking.

    Wrong: i have a tablet because i want a bigger screen for *some things*, but that doesn't mean my phone should get smaller. I prefer a 5inch screen phone, easily portable, can fit in my pockets, easily used with one hand than any tablet on the market. Going back to a flip phone with a 3.5 inch screen would never cross my mind to replace my tablet or my phone.
    I said more likely, not that you or everyone felt that way. You don't need universal consensus to shift product, lol, you need _a_ market. Any percentage of people makes profit if they margin beats the development and manufacture investment. Blackberry sits at around 5% of the new phone market share. A gain of 1-4% would be a victory for them, and put them closer to apples phones (at 15%), and above windows phone (also 5%).

    So they really don't need everyone to like or buy every product at all. Directly competing with samsung with samsung clones would be every kind of business dumb.

    Nothing five inch fits easily into any of my pockets, im 6'4. They don't fit easily into the hand for phone calls either, or nicely next to my ear and mouth, and should they slip out of that pocket, oops, you just lost money. My old flip weighed 90 grams. There are phones that weigh less than 50 now. That feels good in your pocket, its easy, you can put other stuff in your pocket, when your out and about, whereas smart phones are a fragile weighty burden by comparison to a light hardy device.

    And I hold my seven inch tablet like a novel just fine, in one hand, when I actually want to use the net, which isn't all the time. I wouldn't want to make a phone call with it, or carry it around all day though.

    Whole fragile cheezeblock thing seems pretty silly to me. Im glad they will all be replaced by graphene, then we can all have a laugh at how silly it was one day

    who are these others you're talking about? Some people think that you should button the bottom button on a suit, that doesn't make it true.
    If you google it, you'll find people saying this stuff. If you look at discontinued phone markets, you'll see people buying. Opinion is never true, its true for the person. What does this sentence mean? Do you believe there is an objective truth regarding the personal utility of phones to individuals? Like if you think its useful or smart, then its useful or smart to everyone? Im confused about that paragraph!

    If I were to only look at CB i'd think that BB10 is the best phone *ever*, that doesn't make it anymore true...so i'm not saying you're the only one who thinks that a flip phone is needed, i'm only saying that if blackberry produces one they're dead.
    Indeed, yes, I think that 5-6 inch glass touch screens are going to die, and that emulating that market without innovation will be the death of blackberry. I think we have been over that, opinion sharing though.

    i don't get your point? First off, most people think that google glass looks idiotic on anyone that wears them. I might be missing something but i don't get what that has to do with a flip phone?
    Correct you don't. My point is that all these devices are fairly unspecialized. They all do roughly the same things. The smart phone is the least specialized of all, compromizing phone utility, mobility, pocketability, screen size, processing power, battery power - while being master of none of them. It is the jack of all trades but the master of none. For many smart phone users, its like a middle ages house wife with a swiss army knife - at best they use a few of the options, but mostly its brought for the features one might use but never does. They might use a phone for browsing or facebook for example, and texting and picture taking. A feature phone from 2010 or 2008 can do that. They don't really need a quad core 2 ghz processor to check facebook ;P For those that use the hardware, all the features, its not something they need all the time - and when they do need it, they may need _better_ hardware - or they may need better portability - or they may need better call quality, or high bandwidth.

    A jack of all trades approach to a rapidly diversifying market, is like investing all your money in desktop PCs in 2005. Short term theres a pay off, long term you might want to look around.

    As we have more smart devices in our lives, such as tablets, phones, watches, whatever, there is less need for a device that does everything badly, to carry around with us all day. Functionally, in terms of useage, as more devices do the same things, its master of none qualities become more of a disadvantage.

    Its not as portable as a smart watch, or as convinient to check. As they become more viable, and voice control become easier, and gesture better.....well thats a chunk of the market. They can last a day, and they can do gps and 3g. Its about size and interface atm. Its more likely to get dropped too, a smart phone - its not strapped to your wrist.

    Its not as good at computing as a tablet, it has inferior specs, battery life, smaller screen.

    Its not as good as a old fashioned phone for being a portable phone because its fragile, large and often has poor call quality. Not if you absolutely must have a master of none swiss army knife on you at all times, maybe its perfect. But as more devices overlap with its functionality, that globally is less useful in general for general people.

    a touch screen phone can do all that in a great way, a flip phone cannot replace a tablet because of the lack of screen real estate.
    It does it worse than a tablet. Much worse than a PC with a HD screen. Both devices (phone and tablet) are multi-hundred dollar devices that probably need replacing every three years or so. A flip phone can replace a smart phone if your more concerned with calling, texting, email, call quality, hardiness and pocketability than watching you tube, or surfing websites. Indeed you can pack a three inch or more screen in there, and there are smart phones that do sell, with screens that size, even though its impossible to type on them. its about function, and different people have different functional needs.

    If i had to choose, i'd take a 5inch phone over a combo of a 10inch tablet, a 3inch flip phone and a smartwatch.
    Im not really interesting a smart watch. They could be great for business and running e-mails, texts, calls all hands free. But nah, not my thing. Id take a three inch flip phone and a 7 inch tablet. Ten is not portable. Nice for media like magazines, but thats about it. Turn a seven on its side and its pretty decent screen size wise. Look at that we are different! Who ever imagined that people are different :P

    I prefer a device that can do it all (a large touch screen) than multiple devices that do separate things.
    5 inch isnt really large. Its pretty squinty if you ask me. But fair enough, you prefer the 5 inch mobile, to the seven inch phablet/tablet, you like the smaller device, despite its fragility for mobility. Id prefer an even smaller device, with greater mobility, for a phone. So I guess we have something in common, in a way.

    But still, i don't understand what that that has to do with a flip-phone?
    Specialization. Flip is the perfect form factor for mobility and use as a phone. It fits your ear, your mouth comfortably. It answers calls and ends them more easily than buttons. Its design makes it so hardy there are flip phones you can through across the room and they don't get damaged. They are light, and small, so fit easily in the pocket -without the need to baby or worry about them. Current smart phones are unspecialized. They are great at nothing. Thats partly because of the faddish quality, and partly because other devices are yet to fill the market as much as they inevitibly will (folding tablets, scroll phones, watches, tablets other wearables). indeed tablets have not reached anything like their market capacity (they are predicted get higher than desktops), and yet smart phones are fully saturated - samsung lost profit last quarter, apple is sinking fast.

    I don't know what kind of pocket you have, but my Z30 fits easily in my pocket.
    A normal pocket. We must have different standards of "easily".

    Also, ending a call by pressing the "end call" button is no rocket science. "for something who's display is a secondary feature" that's exactly your problem, you don't seem to understand that phones have as a primary feature the display since it replaces the need of a tablet/desktop computer.
    For what? They are worse at being a computer than both of those things. Try playing the latest PC game on your phone. Use your phone to write a one hundred page book. Watch a four season tv series without your eyes getting bung, or listen to the best music you have and compare it to your PC, with a decent external sound card, an active compressor, and a nice stereo. It cant replace things if its not as good as them. As I said before the smart phone is bad at being a computer, bad at being a phone, bad at being portable - because it is the middle compromise between all of those things. If it was, no one would buy a desktop. No one would buy a tablet (tablet market growing rapidly, smart phone market past full capacity). Mobile computing will never fully replace stationary computing, because the later is always more powerful - more size, more power (and with tablets, more battery life). Smart phones will never stop the sale of tablets, because tablets have better specs, better screens. Did you really say smart phones are a replacement for tablets? One is a growing market, the other is not!

    Maybe the reason they're selling well is because China alone boosts more than 1B in population, so it's easy to have number that says "they're selling well", but what is the percentage of people buying these phones compared to candy bar phones?
    And more professional? IMO, that's not true at all.
    The world has a bigger population. The world is the environment in which people do business. Business people is the way those phones are marketed - they have some very stylish designs over there I must say. I do think that a phone that is largely display, can't be very business-y, but hey, who cares. I think thats part of why blackberry has one business share - because it has a keyboard.

    have you been living under a rock for the last 10 years? Untapped market? are you kidding me? that's not an untapped market! It's a marked that has evolved from flip-phone to something that is way more practical!
    How is a cheezeblock that breaks like a china doll, doesnt fit to your head, more practical as a phone? I think you lost me. As for untapped market, as I pointed out, people are spending more money, per item, on discontinued phones, such as feature flip, than they are on new manufacturer basic phones. The second hand market is booming, because there is an untapped market. I assume you understand the notion of markets having different desires, and demands, and a needs, being met by different kinds of products - well there is one that no manufacturer is making phones for. At 5% market share, that might be of interest to blackberry.

    TLDR?

    .....


    Perhaps this would all be best illustrated by looking at the evolution of design. First there was the clay pot. Eventually it evolved into the teapot, the bucket, the cooking pot, the pan, the cup, and numerous other devices that filled different purposes. Each design evolved better and better - for its purpose. We no longer use clay pots, because they are not specialized to a purpose. Now you might regard the "master of none, okay at everything" a form of specialization. But it is not the only form, and in terms of design, mobile computing and the internet of things, even touch technology, is in a proto-infancy stage - we haven't even started to see where all this leads. And in that feild of specialization, there is room for a handset that functions very very well as a phone, and has strong connectivity features, with weaker display - for people who use computers less on the bus and street, and more at home or in the office or friends - and who want something thats really good at being a phone, or are just more concerned with other aspects like software connectivity to other devices than they are display size.

    I do hope I have illustrated that not everyone who buys phones is identical in desire or need, and that this means there are distinct markets - and that those markets get more distinct, the more competing smart devices there are and the more evolution occurs - a bit like the clay pot, although that might be a poor analogy.

    At minimum this should be demonstrated by the fact that there is you, and me, the only people in this discussion to represent out veiws, and we both want entirely different things from our phones (and maybe tablets? Im not fussed on ten inch. As I say, nice for websites and mags, but you can't hold it in one hand, so mainly pointless for me)
    Last edited by Jamie Brahm; 04-30-14 at 09:16 AM.
    04-30-14 08:55 AM

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