04-09-14 03:45 AM
40 12
tools
  1. anon6113468's Avatar
    Okay, I know, most of you guys will say "The tool belt is totally useless with BB10", and you know what ? I'll agree with you. But the moment I started saying that, I realised it wasn't a stupid idea bringing back the belt. I'll explain myself by taking examples of all the other brands (except Apple, Apple is different from the others)

    ALL the other brands that sell smartphones, have all a high-end and a low-end device; one for the people that can afford a better but more costly phone, and others for the people on a tighter budget. Then, they change the sizes from smartphone to smartphone, the specs, the camera, etc. Basically, this does that all the brand can impose itself in nearly all the markets.

    What BlackBerry is doing, is exactly the same, trying to impose itself in different markets : People tight on budget (Z3/Q5), people with a good budget (Z10), people with a big budget (Z30/Q10) and a VERY big budget (Porsche Design). Now that englobes most of the people willing to buy a BlackBerry EXCEPT those still rocking a BBOS smartphone and who don't know BB10 and aren't willing or don't understand the gestures (ie. people who don't want to spend 5min understanding their phone, they want to understand it immiedately). The Q20 will bring the people still on BBOS to BB10 without having a feeling of leaping in the unknown. .
    Then, those people who will understand BB10 with time, won't be afraid of buying a BB10 smartphone without the tool belt because they'll already know how to use the OS.

    That's my point of view, now let's discuss and tell me what you think !

    Luca
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    02-27-14 01:38 PM
  2. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    I couldn't agree more, but predict a lot of "but there's still no BIS" coming here .
    anon6113468 likes this.
    02-27-14 02:55 PM
  3. goUSAFblue's Avatar
    Absolutely right. People are quick to hate on the toolbelt, but as JC has directly stated, the Q20 is designed to attract the users who can't get away from their trackpad.

    Just another phone designed to grab another particular group of users

    Posted via CB10
    acovey likes this.
    02-27-14 04:21 PM
  4. anon6113468's Avatar
    Exactly, that's the point of bringing back this tool belt.

    Posted via CB10
    02-27-14 04:46 PM
  5. johnnyuk's Avatar
    I can't find where I read it (and it was only this morning!), but there is a rumour that the return of the legacy function keys will not be a simple transplant of the old BBOS6/7 era physical keys.

    This is something I feel more positive about if it's true. If the new function "keys" be they physical, virtual or some kind of hybrid are innovative, smart and bring extra functionality to the user interface beyond that which they brought to BBOS then that could be good.

    The worst thing BlackBerry could do it simply graft the age old legacy keys on to a BB10 phone with no real effort put in to making them do something "better".

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.1925 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1
    02-27-14 04:56 PM
  6. anon6113468's Avatar
    I can't find where I read it (and it was only this morning!), but there is a rumour that the return of the legacy function keys will not be a simple transplant of the old BBOS6/7 era physical keys.

    This is something I feel more positive about if it's true. If the new function "keys" be they physical, virtual or some kind of hybrid are innovative, smart and bring extra functionality to the user interface beyond that which they brought to BBOS then that could be good.

    The worst thing BlackBerry could do it simply graft the age old legacy keys on to a BB10 phone with no real effort put in to making them do something "better".

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.1925 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1
    I think what they will do is keep the main placement of the keys but will try and change (a little bit) the design. At least I hope !

    Posted via CB10
    02-27-14 04:58 PM
  7. johnnyuk's Avatar
    I think what they will do is keep the main placement of the keys but will try and change (a little bit) the design. At least I hope !

    Posted via CB10
    Menu just isn't necessary, Back is debatable too with it being built in to the touch UI.

    What I was reading about was the supplier, and inventor, of BlackBerry's optical trackpad having investigated years ago the possibility of integrating the trackpad into the screen so that it was part of it rather than separate. If they've developed that technology since then it could be something unique and of interest.

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.1925 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1
    02-27-14 05:23 PM
  8. goUSAFblue's Avatar
    And something I would hands down get too

    Posted via CB10
    02-27-14 05:24 PM
  9. anon6113468's Avatar

    What I was reading about was the supplier, and inventor, of BlackBerry's optical trackpad having investigated years ago the possibility of integrating the trackpad into the screen so that it was part of it rather than separate. If they've developed that technology since then it could be something unique and of interest.
    Wow that does seem interesting but yet then it comes back to the point of "ease of use", which in that case I don't think it is, even though I'd love it

    Posted via CB10
    02-27-14 05:37 PM
  10. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Some people are missing the point Chen made, he's bringing the belt back to entice legacy hold outs to upgrade to BB10, and as such it has to remain familiar to them in design and functionality.

    Forget about crazy innovations, it will be the good old belt we know and love


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    Frehley and acovey like this.
    02-27-14 06:21 PM
  11. johnnyuk's Avatar
    Some people are missing the point Chen made, he's bringing the belt back to entice legacy hold outs to upgrade to BB10, and as such it has to remain familiar to them in design and functionality.

    Forget about crazy innovations, it will be the good old belt we know and love


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    Nobody said anything about "crazy" innovations, I'm talking about SMART innovations.

    The "belt" didn't start out that way in 2002, it wasn't even there until the mid 2000's, it evolved through innovation. It started as Call Accept and Call End, the track WHEEL was on the right hand side edge with the Back button below and there was no Menu button.

    How did we get to the belt of Call Accept, Menu, trackPAD, Back and Calm End all being on the front of the phone under the screen? Why, through INNOVATION of course.

    But does that mean they have to stay that way forever locked in time? Of course not. How would anything ever improve if it stayed static forever? Not wanting innovation is just you all over, you wake up every day wishing it was 2009 when dinosaurs roamed the Earth and Mike Lazaridis sat on the throne.

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.1925 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1
    02-27-14 06:35 PM
  12. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    I'd be wary of assuming that CrackBerry is the typical audience (skewed with tech nerds), but at least on here, it's not as cut and dry as some thing

    CrackBerry Asks: Could the BlackBerry Q20 tempt you back to a hardware keyboard? | CrackBerry.com

    I still wouldn't go for it personally though
    02-27-14 06:42 PM
  13. anon6113468's Avatar
    I definitely agree, it should be SIMILAR but NOT the same.

    Posted via CB10
    02-28-14 03:52 AM
  14. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Nobody said anything about "crazy" innovations, I'm talking about SMART innovations.

    The "belt" didn't start out that way in 2002, it wasn't even there until the mid 2000's, it evolved through innovation. It started as Call Accept and Call End, the track WHEEL was on the right hand side edge with the Back button below and there was no Menu button.

    How did we get to the belt of Call Accept, Menu, trackPAD, Back and Calm End all being on the front of the phone under the screen? Why, through INNOVATION of course.

    But does that mean they have to stay that way forever locked in time? Of course not. How would anything ever improve if it stayed static forever? Not wanting innovation is just you all over, you wake up every day wishing it was 2009 when dinosaurs roamed the Earth and Mike Lazaridis sat on the throne.

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.1925 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1
    I find it hard to have a conversation with you after that last post a while ago, but I kind of agree, as things get perfected though it's hard to innovate further on the same design, I find the 9790 belt set up perfect, individual buttons that you can't miss with your eyes closed. They have the best tactile feeling of all other previous designs.

    Think of driving, it has been perfected to such extent that you can practically jump into any car and drive away.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    anon6113468 likes this.
    02-28-14 04:01 AM
  15. waterfrontmgmt's Avatar
    Color me crazy, I think I will wait to see what the phone actually does first. My guess is that it will be awesome...but I love the Q10 regardless.
    02-28-14 03:31 PM
  16. jrsva2008's Avatar
    I'm looking at this way...The Bold 9900/9930 had the options of trackpad or touch screen working system. Sometimes I would use one, sometimes I would use the other, Wouldn't be surprised if it is a same kind of thing. I see it wise on BB's part as Chen says for a way to draw the many, many BBOS users over to something more that they will like once they get there. Its just getting them there. There is a price point issue and how to distribute when carriers are all about pushing Androids and iPhones...but that's another set of posts. Anyhow, I am so looking forward to seeing it come out.
    goUSAFblue and anon6113468 like this.
    02-28-14 03:38 PM
  17. anon6113468's Avatar
    I'm looking at this way...The Bold 9900/9930 had the options of trackpad or touch screen working system. Sometimes I would use one, sometimes I would use the other, Wouldn't be surprised if it is a same kind of thing. I see it wise on BB's part as Chen says for a way to draw the many, many BBOS users over to something more that they will like once they get there. Its just getting them there. There is a price point issue and how to distribute when carriers are all about pushing Androids and iPhones...but that's another set of posts. Anyhow, I am so looking forward to seeing it come out.
    I agree with you, I think it will be on the same road as the 9900

    Posted via CB10
    02-28-14 05:25 PM
  18. jakeb1986's Avatar
    Okay, I know, most of you guys will say "The tool belt is totally useless with BB10", and you know what ? I'll agree with you. But the moment I started saying that, I realised it wasn't a stupid idea bringing back the belt. I'll explain myself by taking examples of all the other brands (except Apple, Apple is different from the others)

    ALL the other brands that sell smartphones, have all a high-end and a low-end device; one for the people that can afford a better but more costly phone, and others for the people on a tighter budget. Then, they change the sizes from smartphone to smartphone, the specs, the camera, etc. Basically, this does that all the brand can impose itself in nearly all the markets.

    What BlackBerry is doing, is exactly the same, trying to impose itself in different markets : People tight on budget (Z3/Q5), people with a good budget (Z10), people with a big budget (Z30/Q10) and a VERY big budget (Porsche Design). Now that englobes most of the people willing to buy a BlackBerry EXCEPT those still rocking a BBOS smartphone and who don't know BB10 and aren't willing or don't understand the gestures (ie. people who don't want to spend 5min understanding their phone, they want to understand it immiedately). The Q20 will bring the people still on BBOS to BB10 without having a feeling of leaping in the unknown. .
    Then, those people who will understand BB10 with time, won't be afraid of buying a BB10 smartphone without the tool belt because they'll already know how to use the OS.

    That's my point of view, now let's discuss and tell me what you think !

    Luca
    Very valid point of view and I tend to agree. One needs to think in line with all levels of customers and how to keep those customers who are currently using legacy devices which may not be fully supported that much longer. I think the idea of the Q20 is actually rather smart.

    Posted via CB10
    acovey likes this.
    03-01-14 03:44 AM
  19. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    BB10 UI did not need to be different, there was nothing wrong with the BBOS UI, it was perfect. What was needed was power, and the QNX has that.

    I hope they don't just slap the belt on the BB10 as it is now, I hope they move back to a more familiar UI as well. Time will tell.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    03-01-14 03:50 AM
  20. johnnyuk's Avatar
    I find it hard to have a conversation with you after that last post a while ago, but I kind of agree, as things get perfected though it's hard to innovate further on the same design, I find the 9790 belt set up perfect, individual buttons that you can't miss with your eyes closed. They have the best tactile feeling of all other previous designs.

    Think of driving, it has been perfected to such extent that you can practically jump into any car and drive away.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    I was supposed to be on your block list! lol

    Muscle memory builds up more easily when the layout of controls is well designed and intuitive. Controls don't have to stagnate and be the same forever, when designs are changed practice builds up new muscle memory. If you had never used a BBOS7 BlackBerry before and you tried to answer a call without looking at the phone you couldn't do it on the feel of the keys alone as you'd have to already know that the call answer button is the one on the far left. At work I have seen people who haven't used a BlackBerry before pick up someone's BBOS BlackBerry because it's ringing and not know what to do to answer or stop the damned thing from ringing. People largely only know how to operate the phone that they use ever day themselves.

    I wouldn't like BlackBerry to just graft the belt from 2011 on to BB10 smartphones of 2014 without it enhancing the BB10 user experience rather than confusing it. The touchpad is not going to help you navigate around the UI of BB10 the way it does in BBOS because BB10's isn't designed for that kind of control. If anything it will most likely move a mouse pointer around the screen like when PlayBook is remotely controlled from a BlackBerry. How text selection and cursor positioning will work remains to be seen, they are about the only 2 things the touchpad could still be useful for on BB10.

    As for the 9790 for me and others I work with they are just too small. I have a pile of them at work still under contract until September and I just can't give them away. Anyone who tries them hands them back citing that the screen is too small and the keyboard too fiddly due to the phone's small size. It was another case of BlackBerry designing a phone without a plan for who it was supposed to be for, a miniaturised 9900 for the working professional with child sized hands? There's a huge market for that out there, not.

    The driving analogy doesn't quite work as from one mobile phone manufacturer to the next the controls on the phones aren't always in the same place. They don't have to be because, unlike in a car on the roads, it's not a question of the safety of human life. You don't have to pass a mobile phone driving test and carry a phone license.

    There are very few physical buttons in the traditional sense on smartphones nowadays, BlackBerrys aside. Android phone controls are usually touch sensitive and don't have to conform in terms of positioning, in fact Android manufacturers appear to try not to conform as a way to differentiate themselves from each other, there aren't many other ways they can differentiate.

    As we all know cars largely have their main controls in the same place between manufacturers, with differences being mainly ancillary thing like lights and wipers. I say largely because even in that field there are some big differences sometimes; manual, semi and fully automatic gearboxes for example. If you get in a car for the first time with an automatic gearbox or flappy paddles on the steering column for changing gears then you have some learning to do. I know some Citroen vans in the UK have their handbrake on the right hand side of the driver's seat and not in the middle. And yet we can learn, and adapt when we get in a car with unfamiliar controls. We develop new muscle memory.

    So, it wouldn't be a disaster if BlackBerry innovate and make a new-for-2014 better 'belt' for the Q20, we will learn, adapt and develop new muscle memory.

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.1925 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1
    03-01-14 03:43 PM
  21. duude88's Avatar
    I'll get it because of text editing abilities alone. Positioning the cursor exactly where you want it on all-touch phones is a pain in the ***.

    That said, if BlackBerry releases another Q phone with a bigger screen and no trackpad, I'm getting that instead. While I do like the fact my phone is small, cute and can be operated with only one hand, I'd like a bigger screen much much more.

    Posted via CB10/Q10
    acovey and AthenaSmith like this.
    03-02-14 08:13 AM
  22. Supa_Fly1's Avatar
    Absolutely right. People are quick to hate on the toolbelt, but as JC has directly stated, the Q20 is designed to attract the users who can't get away from their trackpad.

    Just another phone designed to grab another particular group of users

    Posted via CB10
    People are quick to LOVE the Tool Belt and NOT knowing what it'll grant them. Other than more physical buttons it will NIT grant you anything!

    Software is the key! The issue all the BBOS hold outs have had on Q10/5 is not so much the tool belt buttons!!

    It was:
    1) text selection and highlighting,
    2) core OS features missing in BB10!
    Grant them proficiency in #2 above and redesign selection of text and I guarantee if improved by 30% there would be no need for R&D for the Q20!!

    BlackBerry Q10 ? & Full Metal CB10!
    03-02-14 11:03 PM
  23. danbcrack's Avatar
    to me the return of the tool belt on the Q20 is just a fantastic idea. Chen is right it will make the BB7 hold outs "fall in" ... but to me this returns the true Blackberry experience. i could do without the Back,send,end and menu keys (but their great to have) however the track pad is the one. the precision of mouse and cursor just cant be beaten. touch screen when you need it and mouse when you need it too
    03-03-14 06:30 AM
  24. JAS0NB0URNE's Avatar
    People are quick to LOVE the Tool Belt and NOT knowing what it'll grant them. Other than more physical buttons it will NIT grant you anything!

    Software is the key! The issue all the BBOS hold outs have had on Q10/5 is not so much the tool belt buttons!!

    It was:
    1) text selection and highlighting,
    2) core OS features missing in BB10!
    Grant them proficiency in #2 above and redesign selection of text and I guarantee if improved by 30% there would be no need for R&D for the Q20!!

    BlackBerry Q10 ? & Full Metal CB10!
    Ignorant view. Because people like you and I do not miss the tool belt does not mean there isn't a large faction of users out there who do want the physical trackpad and function keys and thus have held out on upgrading to BB10.

    Posted with my ?Q10 running 10.2.1.1925.
    03-03-14 07:22 AM
  25. waterfrontmgmt's Avatar
    My view of the BBOS holdouts is simple. The Q10 is not.

    The Belt should go a long way towards making the phone simple to use.
    03-03-14 08:29 AM
40 12

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