08-15-14 01:31 PM
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  1. redlightblinking's Avatar
    From where I'm sitting YOU'RE the one who keeps redefining buttons. There are three kinds: physical buttons, capacitive buttons, and on-screen buttons. Your initial claim said this:



    YOU initially defined buttons as "off screen." Then you were reminded of on-screen buttons (which don't always just have one function, btw).
    You're right that apparently some phones actually now embed those keys into the display screen instead of just below it, but they are still dedicated...no? Don't they live there nearly all the time except for maybe some media modes so they don't get in the way of the picture?

    I don't think I made distinctions about physical clicks versus some other software style button/key. (If I did, then I apologize for that confusion.) My points have been clear about their function and use, not their physical activation method. They are function keys, regardless of the physical method. Once it because obvious that the other poster was objecting to the physical keys (with a click) I asked if a non-physical key, or band of keys, would then be ok. He hasn't responded.

    The point is that the phone cannot operate without these dedicated buttons. Thus, they are not being phased out. They are a part of the phones basic operation....and thus....speed of operation.
    02-25-14 02:02 PM
  2. kw9700's Avatar
    Why not? There are steadfast keyboard users who are probably holding off on jumping to BB10 because there is no trackpad. There are uses for it for which touch screen gestures can't come close to doing as well. People like me who once swore by physical kb's and trackpad are making do with what BB10 currently offers because the other benefits of the OS outweigh that one compromise. But there are plenty of others who aren't willing to make that trade-off. This is not to give any more ore less credence to the rumor, and it probably won't make me go back to a physical kb; but if it were to be so, I think it's a great thing for the BBOS die-hards who want to upgrade their BBs but don't want to let go of their trackpads.

    Edit: nobody is suggesting that trackpads should come back on ALL BB10 devices. Chill out a bit, kids.
    Spot on sleepngbear.
    02-25-14 02:05 PM
  3. lnichols's Avatar
    Because there isn't always a back button. If I'm in an app, or the hub, and want to go back to the previous app, or home...there is no quick button press to do this. You must do something that is more intensive and particular and takes slightly longer. For power users this gets old really quick.
    So lifting a finger, bringing it to the belt, and hitting a key to bring up a menu of available apps is quicker than a swipe from the left in the hub to get back to the open apps, or if in an app a swipe up to get to that same screen? Sorry but I think the real issue is that people haven't immersed themselves in BB10. I carry one phone. I used BBOS devices from the 8830 through the 9900, had Treo devices prior to BBOS, and I'm way faster with moving around apps and multitasking with BB10 than I ever was with any BBOS device. It took a little time and re-learning how to do things in BB10 compared to BBOS, but after that short time I was typing and moving between apps way faster than is possible with buttons, and my experience with the later PKB BBOS devices was the buttons and the trackpads are failure points. So I feel I now have greater speed and reliability with the way BB10 is now.

    Posted via CB10
    tomsobon likes this.
    02-25-14 02:07 PM
  4. waterfrontmgmt's Avatar
    A lot of people still haven't immersed themselves in BBOS, but that doesn't stop them from using it. Simplicity is a selling point that BB10 has lacked for some people. The hard buttons will help those migrate over.
    02-25-14 02:10 PM
  5. deptech's Avatar
    You're right that apparently some phones actually now embed those keys into the display screen instead of just below it, but they are still dedicated...no? Don't they live there nearly all the time except for maybe some media modes so they don't get in the way of the picture?

    I don't think I made distinctions about physical clicks versus some other software style button/key. They are function keys, regardless of the physical method.

    The point is that the phone cannot operate without these dedicated buttons. Thus, they are not being phased out. They are a part of the phones basic operation....and thus....speed of operation.
    I have no issues navigating using my Z30, I'm a single swipe away from the home screen from within any application. Every mobile device has dedicated buttons, but not every mobile device has physical dedicated buttons (not including volume, power...).

    Z30 on 10.2.1.537 in Canada
    02-25-14 02:10 PM
  6. crucial bbq's Avatar
    I find it ironic that the majority of comments in this forum are negative where as the majority of comments in the news article on the CrackBerry home page concerning the Q20 are more positive. Just further evidence that the forums are populated by trolls.

    And to those who consistently cry that BlackBerry NEEDS to expand their line-up while at the same time ******** that the Q20 is a waste of time because it will only appeal to a niche market...seriously? Are you stupid? I do not mean to sound harsh, but, seriously. The whole point of expanding your line-up IS to offer something that appeals to those niche markets. The Q20 will not be the only qwerty BB10 device on the market and it stands to reason that they will still offer a "belt less" qwerty handset, too. Chen is also smart enough to realize BlackBerry does not need to have millions of these devices built.

    As with most things in life, no one will force you to use a Q20.
    02-25-14 02:11 PM
  7. lnichols's Avatar

    I don't think I made distinctions about physical clicks versus some other software style button/key. (If I did, then I apologize for that confusion.) My points have been clear about their function and use, not their physical activation method. They are function keys, regardless of the physical method. Once it because obvious that the other poster was objecting to the physical keys (with a click) I asked if a non-physical key, or band of keys, would then be ok. He hasn't responded.
    Aren't there software buttons at the bottom of this screen:


    The Trackpad is Coming Back! Q20-img_20140225_150906.png

    And this one:

    The Trackpad is Coming Back! Q20-img_20140225_150941.png


    Posted via CB10
    02-25-14 02:12 PM
  8. gg bb's Avatar
    Lets face it Apple and Samsung are introducing the fingerprint scanner which will no doubt evolve into a trackpad. BlackBerry ditched the trackpad at the very point they needed to develop it.
    johnnyuk likes this.
    02-25-14 02:13 PM
  9. johnnyuk's Avatar
    This is an amazingly written post. I have to give you credit. I will just add a bit more to this point from my personal experience...
    Thank you! I try to bring a bring a balanced view and sense of perspective to my comments using my experience of over a decade as a BESAdmin keeping my users happy. I also however don't shy away from stating what my opinion is too.

    However, at the end all BlackBerry support was dumped and the whole account was terminated, not because of the devices or the lack of buttons or the trackpad, or anything like that, but because of the bad implementation of BES 10.
    That's a shame but it's true that BES10 simply wasn't Enterprise ready until the summer of 2013, several months after BlackBerry rebadged Mobile Fusion to BES10.0 for the January 2013 "launch".

    I managed to scrape through a migration to BB10 phones on BES10.0 in May 2013 as there had been just enough updates to make it usable, but there still remained a lot of bugs and gotchas. Q10 support was particularly bad. Q10s would lose communication with the BlackBerry Device Service after a few hours meaning although they continued to work for ActiveSync and the Work space they could no longer be remotely managed, the commands stopped arriving on the phones! Luckily I only had a few Q10 users. Another gotcha was that if you deleted a user from BDS it would fail to delete properly but you then couldn't add the same user back again! So I could never delete a user in case I needed to add them back later on.

    BES10.1 in the summer of 2013 brought the hassle of migrating CALs to the all new licensing model (something that I've only just reached the end of today now that my upgraded perpetual CALs from the BES5 to BES10 trade-up program have finally arrived from BlackBerry, hooray!) and the total cluster "hug" of having to reactivate any and all existing UDS users on iOS or Android devices, but it did clear up a lot of operational bugs in the management consoles. Unfortunately it also introduced some serious installation and upgrade process bugs that weren't cleared up until version 10.1.3 came out months later, so for many Enterprises the install or upgrade to 10.1 was a nightmare.

    Enterprise-ready BES10 was clearly running at least 6 months behind schedule when it launched in January 2013 but the launch of the BB10 phones couldn't wait any longer. It was very messy and disappointing and I'm not surprised that many Enterprises who wanted an easy migration path were put off BlackBerry for life! It's only because I relish an IT challenge that I persevered with it!

    So yeah, adding these keys just appeases a very vocal minority. Most of them will still not upgrade to BlackBerry 10 as they will find something else to gripe with. This is a terrible move by BlackBerry that dilutes their image and gives reviewers a field day to rip BlackBerry apart once the device is launched.
    I agree with you here. It's going to be confusing to the image of BlackBerry's products having some models without a trackpad and physical function keys, some with them but running BB10 and some old phones still on sale with both trackpad and function keys but creaking old BBOS7. How fragmented can things get?!

    And you're right, most of those who whinge and whine about BB10 phones lacking the trackpad and physical function keys are people who just don't like BB10 at all and wouldn't buy one even if BlackBerry retrofit exactly what they are crying about missing. They will just find some other excuse not to upgrade or switch from another platform, "oh but it still doesn't have BIS back!" :/ lol

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.1925 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1
    Last edited by johnnyuk; 02-25-14 at 02:46 PM.
    Shadowyugi likes this.
    02-25-14 02:26 PM
  10. redlightblinking's Avatar
    So lifting a finger, bringing it to the belt, and hitting a key to bring up a menu of available apps is quicker than a swipe from the left in the hub to get back to the open apps, or if in an app a swipe up to get to that same screen?
    Posted via CB10
    Yes, it is quicker. And you don't lift it, it's already holding the phone and hovering over that spot anyway.

    Sorry but I think the real issue is that people haven't immersed themselves in BB10. I carry one phone. I used BBOS devices from the 8830 through the 9900, had Treo devices prior to BBOS, and I'm way faster with moving around apps and multitasking with BB10 than I ever was with any BBOS device.
    Posted via CB10
    I have both a Z10 and 9930. I've been immersed in both. I love the z10 for it's large screen and flawless operation (no lagging like the 9900 sometimes) but it's simply not physically possible to the same operations on a Z10, like immediately making a phone call, or immediately going to the home screen, or back to the app you just were on....without more motion (as opposed to nearly no motion at all) and more of those motions. It just gets tiring if you do it a lot. And you must always have your swiping thumb at the right angle...at the ready...to make anything happen. And, the darn sliding effect itself just takes longer. I don't need a show....just pop to where I want to go instantly.

    It took a little time and re-learning how to do things in BB10 compared to BBOS, but after that short time I was typing and moving between apps way faster than is possible with buttons, and my experience with the later PKB BBOS devices was the buttons and the trackpads are failure points. So I feel I now have greater speed and reliability with the way BB10 is now.

    Posted via CB10
    My buttons have never failed so I dont' know if that's any more prone to failure that the software that looks for a swipe or the screen that feels the swipe.

    I agree that the virtual keyboard is pretty cool, and I'm really into it. Ironically, I thought that would be my biggest obstacle. But, as it turns out, it's just the "directing the choir" effect of contantly moving my thumb while trying not to drop the phone that is slowing me down. I pick up the 9900 and blaze through things. That magical Power/end call button is like slicing a hot knife through butter, instead of pushing a spoon though mash potatoes. (assuming your swipe works on the first try).
    02-25-14 02:30 PM
  11. craftEcowgirl's Avatar
    Yes!! An actual back button! And yes we need one so we can get rid of the huge ugly black bar in every android app.

    Q10, running 10.2.1.2141
    02-25-14 02:32 PM
  12. pantlesspenguin's Avatar
    You're right that apparently some phones actually now embed those keys into the display screen instead of just below it, but they are still dedicated...no? Don't they live there nearly all the time except for maybe some media modes so they don't get in the way of the picture?

    I don't think I made distinctions about physical clicks versus some other software style button/key. (If I did, then I apologize for that confusion.) My points have been clear about their function and use, not their physical activation method. They are function keys, regardless of the physical method. Once it because obvious that the other poster was objecting to the physical keys (with a click) I asked if a non-physical key, or band of keys, would then be ok. He hasn't responded.

    The point is that the phone cannot operate without these dedicated buttons. Thus, they are not being phased out. They are a part of the phones basic operation....and thus....speed of operation.
    You made the distinction when you said that BB10 devices were the ONLY devices out there that didn't have "off screen" buttons. You were corrected by avt, and proceeded to act quite childish toward him. You owe him the apology, not me. He hasn't responded because he mentioned he was putting you on ignore.

    Yes, the on-screen buttons are dedicated buttons. However, some manufacturers allow you quite a bit of customization as to which buttons you'd like and in what order. Like this:



    Whereas physical and capacitive buttons are always static.
    avt123 likes this.
    02-25-14 02:34 PM
  13. johnnyuk's Avatar
    There is a reason bb7 outsells bb10 still! The pad!!!

    ? BlackBerry Q10 ?
    There is another reason, the BBOS7 phones that sell are the cheapest BBOS7 phones and usually the cheapest phones that pass for being a Smartphone available in any given shop or store.

    Until the Z3 launches there simply hasn't been a cheap bargain basement BB10 phone and that has hurt BB10 sales hugely over the last 12 months. In BlackBerry's biggest remaining markets it's the dirt cheap BlackBerry phones that sell. Let's see how the Z3 sells around the world, if BlackBerry remember to market it this time unlike the brilliant but almost unknown and unheard of Z30.

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.1925 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1
    Shadowyugi and kbz1960 like this.
    02-25-14 02:37 PM
  14. redlightblinking's Avatar
    Aren't there software buttons at the bottom of this screen:




    Posted via CB10
    Sure, but you cherry picked your screens. And, they aren't the same buttons on either screen, and neither screen has all of the critical buttons.

    I can't go home from screen 2 without a motion. I can't go to the previous app without several motions. I can't make a call from screen two without several motions. The buttons are whatever happen to be available at any time. there is no array always waiting for the same basic touch. You must swipe. Then sometimes another.
    02-25-14 02:38 PM
  15. waterfrontmgmt's Avatar
    This is not a case of better or best, it is simply an option for those that like the buttons. If you don't like hard buttons, then don't buy the phone!
    02-25-14 02:39 PM
  16. johnnyuk's Avatar
    Lets face it Apple and Samsung are introducing the fingerprint scanner which will no doubt evolve into a trackpad. BlackBerry ditched the trackpad at the very point they needed to develop it.
    Aha! You could be on to something there, it's going to be a fingerprint reading trackpad!

    Only this time it will be a secure one, unlike Apple's, one that isn't cracked and compromised within 24 hours lol

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.1925 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1
    02-25-14 02:41 PM
  17. redlightblinking's Avatar
    You made the distinction when you said that BB10 devices were the ONLY devices out there that didn't have "off screen" buttons. .You were corrected by avt,
    Actually he didn't correct me about this specific exception of some phones putting them into the screen itself (albeit still permanently)....you did. He went on about physical keys.

    If he pointed that out I'd apologize to him, but he's not listening anyway. He took his ball and went home.

    and proceeded to act quite childish toward him.
    Thanks for your opinion. I think he acted childish. See, where did that get us?


    Yes, the on-screen buttons are dedicated buttons. .
    Sooo.....we are splitting hairs again. They still are a critical function of the phone. They are necessary, regardless of whether they are baked in to the backlit display or just below, or clickable or software/backlit. No?

    However, some manufacturers allow you quite a bit of customization as to which buttons you'd like and in what order. Like this:

    http://i.imgur.com/KLyxPu5.png

    Whereas physical and capacitive buttons are always static.
    The customization is cool. But, you still need them to be there. The phone didn't move away from using them. Am I correct with that statement?
    02-25-14 02:46 PM
  18. trwallace's Avatar
    all those people on those older phones want something to upgrade to but still want familiarity i think in a way this is a conversion play. Convert them over to the treacpad phone and then next time a pure play non keyboard screen phone. People feel comfortable with the phone they find it easy to use and reliable and it still gets the job done. In most cases about 90 percent of smart phone functions dont even get used. Yes people want features but using them is a different story. Beside bbm, maybe facebook, twitter and note taking app,weather app, a decent camera what else do you really use. Not much. So you need to make those apps work well together basically the rest of the phone doesnt matter. It always kills me people want all these features what so they play candy crush? Its pretty ridiculous. So if people want the trackpad then give it to them it will convert them over to bb10 which is really what they want. The handset wasnt ideal but if it converts customers over its done its job well.
    02-25-14 02:47 PM
  19. lnichols's Avatar
    Sure, but you cherry picked your screens. And, they aren't the same buttons on either screen, and neither screen has all of the critical buttons.

    I can't go home from screen 2 without a motion. I can't go to the previous app without several motions. I can't make a call from screen two without several motions. The buttons are whatever happen to be available at any time. there is no array always waiting for the same basic touch. You must swipe. Then sometimes another.
    You have to hit a button which requires moving an appendage from where it is at to the button. Screen 1 always has those three buttons at the bottom so you can always get to the phone, search or camera from any app with a swipe and hit that button. To get to open apps it is always a swipe up. Home screen is always a swipe up and one left.

    Posted via CB10
    02-25-14 02:51 PM
  20. redlightblinking's Avatar
    I have no issues navigating using my Z30, I'm a single swipe away from the home screen from within any application. Every mobile device has dedicated buttons, but not every mobile device has physical dedicated buttons (not including volume, power...).

    Z30 on 10.2.1.537 in Canada
    Forget "physical". Change the semantics to permanent. They all have basic navigation "buttons" (physical, virtual,...whatever) waiting for your hovering thumb to simply touch them at any time to get you somewhere. No swiping required.

    I never said anything about any "issues navigating". It's about efficiency....speed. A swipe, by it's very nature is less efficient, regardless of how many you need to do.
    02-25-14 02:54 PM
  21. pantlesspenguin's Avatar
    I honestly hope they do something like this. Onscreen keys, with a physical trackpad acting as a fingerprint sensor for those who like what Apple is doing and Samsung copying:

    Attachment 250826
    I like the look of that...but it reminds me of this:

    02-25-14 02:56 PM
  22. Sean CueTen's Avatar
    Wait, why can't we have a gesture-based OS AND a trackpad and nav keys? They seem a bit redundant but I feel they would also be convenient at times. And who says that the additional keys will mean a compromise in screen real estate? Didn't the report say the Q20 will have a 3.5" screen instead of the Q10's 3.1" (Thats a 12% increase in screen size!).
    02-25-14 02:56 PM
  23. redlightblinking's Avatar
    You have to hit a button which requires moving an appendage from where it is at to the button.

    Posted via CB10
    Yep, but your thumb holds the phone from the bottom...it's already there. That's why every phone ever made put the buttons on the bottom. So, your not really moving it that far...as opposed the required motion of a swipe.

    . Screen 1 always has those three buttons at the bottom so you can always get to the phone, search or camera from any app with a swipe and hit that button. To get to open apps it is always a swipe up. Home screen is always a swipe up and one left.

    Posted via CB10
    Yes, home is....well....home. At this point you need to go somewhere else. But, you still can't menu without stretching your thumb somewhere else.

    Correct me if I'm wrong....but isn't "home" the screen with the live tiles? What is considered "home". Because if home is always swipe up (action one) then swipe left (action two) it's already twice as many actions to get there as any phone with a home button.
    02-25-14 03:01 PM
  24. pantlesspenguin's Avatar
    Actually he didn't correct me about this specific exception of some phones putting them into the screen itself (albeit still permanently)....you did. He went on about physical keys.

    If he pointed that out I'd apologize to him, but he's not listening anyway. He took his ball and went home.


    Thanks for your opinion. I think he acted childish. See, where did that get us?


    Sooo.....we are splitting hairs again. They still are a critical function of the phone. They are necessary, regardless of whether they are baked in to the backlit display or just below, or clickable or software/backlit. No?



    The customization is cool. But, you still need them to be there. The phone didn't move away from using them. Am I correct with that statement?
    I never said they weren't a critical function of the phone, etc. Earlier you made it seem like you had no idea on-screen buttons on Android were a thing (mentioning that BB10 was the only OS with no "off screen" buttons). I'm just showing you what these look like and can do. I'm in no way saying they aren't necessary.
    02-25-14 03:05 PM
  25. redlightblinking's Avatar
    Wait, why can't we have a gesture-based OS AND a trackpad and nav keys? They seem a bit redundant but I feel they would also be convenient at times. And who says that the additional keys will mean a compromise in screen real estate? Didn't the report say the Q20 will have a 3.5" screen instead of the Q10's 3.1" (Thats a 12% increase in screen size!).
    You can have both. But for some reason though, people are against it.

    As far as real estate...the Q10 could easily stand to be longer...so just extend that sucker to keep the q10 screen the same size and make room for some nice backlit software keys. Heck...if you don't like them and they don't pass the tech blogger cool test, program a menu option to turn them off along with their back light. No more embarrassing moments at parties when people laugh at your menu keys.
    02-25-14 03:06 PM
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