1. mdrejhon's Avatar
    Note: I'm not a BlackBerry newbie. I used to moderate BlackBerryForums.com ten years ago, in 2004 -- and also am the creator of the "BlackBerry Thumb Touch Typing Guide" (google it)

    By "deterministic", I mean the ability to execute an exact sequence of button presses, and you are guaranteed to be in a specific screen without needing to tap the touchscreen/trackpad. This was almost always possible on BlackBerry 9900, and most older keyboarded BlackBerries. On these, the phonecall "End" key acted as a HOME button (like the iPhone home button) so I am glad it's back on Classic! What does "End" key do, when you're not in a phone call?

    Once you enabled Homescreen->Options->"Launch via Typing Application Shortcuts", You could do this on a BlackBerry 9900:

    [End Key]C
    ....This 2-key sequence begins composing an email, no matter what previous screen you were in.
    ..........[End Key] goes to the HOME screen
    ..........C launches the Email Compose screen

    [End Key]A
    .....This 2-key sequence brings up the addressbook on 9900
    ..........[End Key] goes to the HOME screen
    ..........A launches the Addressbook

    [End Key]Cjoh sm[Enter]Hello[Enter]Please call ASAP[Menu][Menu]
    .....This key sequence sends an email, from any screen (even in the middle of a game app) by keyboard alone, without touching the touchscreen or trackpad at all!
    ..........[End Key] goes to the HOME screen
    ..........C starts composing email
    .........."joh sm" searches contacts for name (e.g. "John Smith")
    ..........[Enter] selects name in contacts, then opens email editor
    .........."Hello" enters text into the subject line
    ..........[Enter] moves cursor to email body field
    .........."Please call ASAP" enters the body
    ..........[Menu][Menu] sends the email -- doubletapping the menu button. First [Menu] press displays pop-up menu which shows "Send" as default menu item, and then next [Menu] press selects this menu item.

    This worked on the BlackBerry 9900. Please, can you tell me, if BlackBerry Classic wil be able to do 'deterministic' actions like these, for common operations, via keyboard alone? (i.e. No need to look at the device carefully to do what you're doing, if you're a thumb touchtypist).

    Cheers,
    Mark Rejhon
    djbclark and nah.uhh like this.
    11-20-14 04:16 PM
  2. momofteme's Avatar
    sitting here with my Q10 with the newest software, so we will see how it woks.....

    swipe up (should be the same as back key on classic) from anywhere takes you to active frames/home screen.

    long press c to get compose...but that brings you to the compose screen where you have to select an account, they have shortcut key assignments per the account, and your three most recently used contacts are listed there along with the available accounts. So a screen or trackpad manipulation is needed here. however you can do ANY account on the phone...email text tweet fb bbm.

    Is keyboard control 100% "deterministic" like 9900? (e.g. send email blindly, from any screen)-img_20141120_162430.png


    Then type your recipient name...the [enter] key works there to select, then [enter] to subject, and [enter] to body....
    On my Q10 i have to tap send at the top of the screen, I don't know how that will work on the classic, but the overflow menu has the send option at the top, so I assume it will open that menu and another click will activate it.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Now, for the sweetness that is BB10...swipe up,(or back button on classic) from anywhere...type email joh sm, blackberry assistant pops up and the first choice is to compose an email to john...it is actually less manuvering around to get an email started to John that way.

    And as you will notice from the screen below, you also have the choice to see all the emails that joh sm sent, so you can reply easily if you prefer that over starting a new conversation.

    Is keyboard control 100% "deterministic" like 9900? (e.g. send email blindly, from any screen)-img_20141120_163650.png


    So not a perfect comparison, becasue I am assuming from what we have seen of the leaks, how the classic will react, I think the answer is yes, and maybe with instant actions the Classic may be superior to the bold in this regard.
    Attached Thumbnails Is keyboard control 100% "deterministic" like 9900? (e.g. send email blindly, from any screen)-img_20141120_163134.png  
    Last edited by momofteme; 11-20-14 at 04:58 PM. Reason: dang pictures won't stay put!
    gvs1341 and Mr4aces like this.
    11-20-14 04:42 PM
  3. momofteme's Avatar
    The classic will have both "application shortcuts", and "universal search" at the same time.

    You have to long press your shortcut key, so that is a minor delay, BUT, you can assign any key to almost any shortcut including a mix of applications, and speed dials.
    11-20-14 04:56 PM
  4. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    Yes it will although the ordering or amount of key presses maybe shorter or longer.

    Posted via CB10
    11-20-14 05:00 PM
  5. mdrejhon's Avatar
    Good to hear Classic will finally bring back deterministic blind operations to BB10, even if not via exact procedure.

    As long as the "End Call" key behaves as a Home button (rightmost button of four) when not already in a phone call. On the 9900, the back key does not operate deterministically (it is not recognized by all apps, and sometimes you have to press it multiple times). One single press of the EndCall key (while not on a call) is guaranteed to go to the home screen on the BlackBerry 9900.

    To BlackBerry employees reading this -- and can't reply due to NDA or social network policy -- please do a quick test: If EndCall key (while not on a call) doesn't bring you back to home screen, please immediately open a ticket with this, so something can be done about it. Alternatively, make a long-press of the Back key be configurable in Settings to always go to Home screen, so one knows you're pretty much guaranteed to be in the Home screen, without needing to glance at the BlackBerry first. Essentially, we need a deterministically exact method of going back to the home screen, via a single 'blind' button press.

    As long as I can execute common actions without looking or paying attention (I'm a thumb touchtypist). It also makes me safer while walking & texting.

    The classic is already numero uno for my next primary phone.
    Last edited by mdrejhon; 11-21-14 at 04:37 PM.
    11-21-14 04:10 PM
  6. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    Good to hear Classic will finally bring back deterministic blind operations to BB10.

    As long as I can execute common actions without looking or paying too much attention (I'm a thumb touchtypist). It also makes me safer while walking & texting.
    I hope BlackBerry os users enjoy it. So crucial for BlackBerry to get this right to continue selling hardware

    Posted via CB10
    11-21-14 04:13 PM
  7. mdrejhon's Avatar
    They need to keep the core 9900 users happy, so I'm sure they already considered deterministic operations to an extent. Hopefully they'll improve it so that it's more operable blindly.

    I once composed an 8,000 character email mostly without looking at the screen (only 10% of the time), and I could pay attention to what I was going around me.

    For this reason, I haven't been able to adapt easily to Android/iPhone devices though I like them for apps. The 9900 is still my primary phone -- along with an iPad Retina Mini LTE (it's my 'surf phablet' and actually barely fits in my pocket) to satisfy needs that 9900 can't do. The Classic will finally solve a lot of that, browse better & even do stuff like Miracast to TV, faster LTE, and popular Android apps/games even including Netflix (via Amazon AppStore). Looking forward very much to these devices.
    Mr4aces and emkay47 like this.
    11-21-14 04:35 PM
  8. kjjb0204's Avatar
    Hey op -I remember you from bbforums. Who was that blowhard that migrated to the forums over at blackberry.com? He was so uptight.

    Oh well. Anyhow, I'm thinking as long as the Home/End key does what it used to, you'll be in good shape. Even better, all keys while on home screen are fully configurable, so if you want the Compose action to be something other than the C key, you'll have that choice. Bbos didn't let you change the default shortcut keys on homescreen.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android on my Q10
    11-21-14 07:53 PM
  9. gvs1341's Avatar
    By "deterministic", I mean the ability to execute an exact sequence of button presses, and you are guaranteed to be in a specific screen without needing to tap the touchscreen/trackpad.
    ...
    No doubt on pkb one can type without looking much at the screen but in BB10 (even on Z series devices) same stuff can be done in equal or lesser interactions with the pkb/ screen. Mainly thanks to gestures and one of the better (best according to many users) text predictions.

    But whatever best suits your needs :-)

    [End Key]C
    ...End Key = Inverted L Gesture
    ...C = Tap Compose icon

    [End Key]A
    ...End Key = Swipe Up
    ...Tap Address Book icon
    ...

    sitting here with my Q10 with the newest software, so we will see how it works.....
    Thanks for the detailed comparison :-)

    Just adding:

    [End Key]Cjoh sm[Enter]Hello[Enter]Please call ASAP[Menu][Menu]
    ...End Key = Swipe up (1 step for each)
    ...C + joh sm = Type "email joh sm" (2 vs 1)
    ...Enter = tap recipient (1:1)
    ..."Hello" = same on BB10 (1:1)
    ...[Enter] = same on BB10 (1:1)
    ..."Please call ASAP" = same on BB10 (1:1)
    ...[Menu][Menu] sends the email = Tap Send (2:1)

    So even without the tool belt on Q series devices - emails can be sent in 2 lesser steps than legacy OS devices.

    For Z series devices it's just 1 extra tap:

    [End Key]Cjoh sm[Enter]Hello[Enter]Please call ASAP[Menu][Menu]
    ...End Key = Inverted L Gesture takes you to the Hub (1:1)
    ...C = Tap Compose icon (1:1)
    ...Tap to select your email account (0:1)
    ...joh sm = Type " joh sm" (1:1)
    ...Enter = tap recipient (1:1)
    ..."Hello" = Tap & Type in subject field on BB10 (1:2)
    ...[Enter] = Tap on BB10 (1:1)
    ..."Please call ASAP" = same on BB10 (1:1)
    ...[Menu][Menu] sends the email = Tap Send (2:1)

    PS: LOL, can't believe I actually wrote all this detailed nonsense!

    PPS: BlackBerry obviously didn't do no marketing with BB10.


    CB10 @ Q5
    Last edited by gvs1341; 11-22-14 at 04:02 PM.
    11-22-14 03:49 PM
  10. whatever-berry's Avatar
    No doubt on pkb one can type without looking much at the screen but in BB10 (even on Z series devices) same stuff can be done in equal or lesser interactions with the pkb/ screen. Mainly thanks to gestures and one of the better (best according to many users) text predictions.

    But whatever best suits your needs :-)

    [End Key]C
    ...End Key = Inverted L Gesture
    ...C = Tap Compose icon

    [End Key]A
    ...End Key = Swipe Up
    ...Tap Address Book icon
    ...



    Thanks for the detailed comparison :-)

    Just adding:

    [End Key]Cjoh sm[Enter]Hello[Enter]Please call ASAP[Menu][Menu]
    ...End Key = Swipe up (1 step for each)
    ...C + joh sm = Type "email joh sm" (2 vs 1)
    ...Enter = tap recipient (1:1)
    ..."Hello" = same on BB10 (1:1)
    ...[Enter] = same on BB10 (1:1)
    ..."Please call ASAP" = same on BB10 (1:1)
    ...[Menu][Menu] sends the email = Tap Send (2:1)

    So even without the tool belt on Q series devices - emails can be sent in 2 lesser steps than legacy OS devices.

    For Z series devices it's just 1 extra tap:

    [End Key]Cjoh sm[Enter]Hello[Enter]Please call ASAP[Menu][Menu]
    ...End Key = Inverted L Gesture takes you to the Hub (1:1)
    ...C = Tap Compose icon (1:1)
    ...Tap to select your email account (0:1)
    ...joh sm = Type " joh sm" (1:1)
    ...Enter = tap recipient (1:1)
    ..."Hello" = Tap & Type in subject field on BB10 (1:2)
    ...[Enter] = Tap on BB10 (1:1)
    ..."Please call ASAP" = same on BB10 (1:1)
    ...[Menu][Menu] sends the email = Tap Send (2:1)

    PS: LOL, can't believe I actually wrote all this detailed nonsense!

    PPS: BlackBerry obviously didn't do no marketing with BB10.


    CB10 @ Q5
    Thanks for the howto. It seems the compose on BB10 is speedy. BUT... We don't want tap a thing. Because during the taping, you need to paying attention to the screen, what you are taping. I want to press button instead that, which I can do blindly.
    sam_tek and VeryBumpy like this.
    11-23-14 10:22 AM
  11. eldrover's Avatar
    No doubt on pkb one can type without looking much at the screen but in BB10 (even on Z series devices) same stuff can be done in equal or lesser interactions with the pkb/ screen. Mainly thanks to gestures and one of the better (best according to many users) text predictions.

    But whatever best suits your needs :-)
    As a former Bold 9900 and 9000 user and current Z10 user, I can say what I miss the most from the pkb environment is the ability to do what I used to do without focusing on what I'm doing.
    The Bold allowed me to type far more accurately, and with less focused attention than my Z10 does.
    It's not simply the number of steps or the raw time. It's could you do it in the dark or blindfolded and how accurately. BlackBerry PKB wins this one, hands down.



    Posted via CB10
    sam_tek likes this.
    11-23-14 12:28 PM
  12. djbclark's Avatar
    It's getting worse over time, not better, even in BlackBerry 10 OS land :-/

    http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...search-978830/

    How much you want to bet BlackBerry introduces some kind of state in the OS so that what the Classic hardware buttons do is based on context and/or "helpfully" remembers things for you, so you have to waste time there as well?

    Grrrr...
    Last edited by djbclark; 11-24-14 at 09:28 PM.
    nah.uhh likes this.
    11-24-14 07:24 PM
  13. gvs1341's Avatar
    It's getting worse over time, not better, even in BlackBerry 10 OS land :-/

    http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...search-978830/

    How much you want to bet BlackBerry introduces some kind of state in the OS so that what the Classic hardware buttons do is based on context and/or "helpfully" remembers things for you, so you have to waste time there as well?

    Grrrr...
    That search behaviour in 10.3.xxx is definitely a step back, there should be some user selectable option for that.

    CB10 @ Q5
    11-25-14 07:09 AM
  14. djbclark's Avatar
    They've actually fixed the problem I mentioned in unreleased / leak builds - I'm running 10.3.1.1154+1155 and it's working like it did under 10.2.1.
    12-01-14 10:51 AM
  15. mdrejhon's Avatar
    So even without the tool belt on Q series devices - emails can be sent in 2 lesser steps than legacy OS devices.

    [snip]

    For Z series devices it's just 1 extra tap:
    Garbage to me. It's 100x more dangerous to walk-and-text with a Z10 than a BlackBerry 9900. Forget it.

    I can even unpocket, send an email to a specific recipient, and repocket, without even looking at the BlackBerry or taking my eyes off where I'm going. (In reality, I do glance to make sure I didn't do typos, but doing it true blindly actually works!) I don't even have to focus on the BlackBerry to get something accomplished.

    With keyboard-only application launch & control, lots of operations can be done blindly, without needing to pay full attention to the device. Much like a highly experienced emacs/vi touchtypist, can do a bunch of wordprocessing tasks blindfolded, due to the deterministic behavior.
    12-17-14 10:12 PM
  16. mdrejhon's Avatar
    Some comments, I finally got to try out a Classic.

    Yes, it's got deterministic control for a lot of things -- including the all-important email compose -- but not all.

    It's even better than the Q10 for deterministic operations, thanks to the prescence of the menu/back/endcall key, which provides important deterministic-enhancing behavior.

    Also, copying my early comments:

    Some early comments:
    - Main problem of BlackBerry Classic for me: Its Calendar app is crap compared to BlackBerry 9900's. I can't directly type an appointment into the calendar, or easily operate the calendar completely without using the touchscreen. Also, I can't rapidly 'rolodex' through (day mode), and the trackpad feels wonky trying to scroll vertically rapidly through calendar months (monthly mode), it seems like keyboard/trackpad operation of Calendar is an afterthought.
    - Minor: Deleting multiple photographs doesn't work via the Delete key. As soon as the next photo is displayed, the Delete key stops working.
    - Minor: I can't use the Enter key to open an email in the email list (I have to click the trackpad or touch screen). Like I could on the 9900. It may work with some of the list screens, but it doesn't work on all lists.
    - Can't animation speed be configurable? I find that the fade animations make it feel a bit sluggish. It's fine, as it seems to buffer up the keypresses and I can still storm ahead (and the BlackBerry animations will catch up), but it would be nice to get the screen snappines I got with the 9900. (Perhaps keyboard shortcuts should bypass animations, unlike touchscreen taps? Or configurable.)
    - I REALLY dislike the back key closing applications by default in the task screen. What if I composed a message in the BlackBerry browser; accidentally pressing Back in the task screen -- ouch -- browser gets closed, partial message composed in forum gets lost. For example, accidentally pressing "Back" in home screen (on the web browser task) is a death sentence for long unsubmitted text entered in web email and discussion forums via the browser. Please fix this to disable the Back key in home screen, BlackBerry, if possible... This isn't a 9900-audience-friendly behavior.

    All in all, a great phone, with only minor bugs. Lots and lots of upgrade -- including NETFLIX working. And 3D games such as Temple Run 2 still manages to operates at 60 frames per second -- this low end GPU (compared to Passport) is still many thousand of light years ahead of 9900's.

    We need a minor BBOS 10.3 bugfix release for keyboard addicts.
    Last edited by mdrejhon; 12-17-14 at 10:34 PM.
    12-17-14 10:15 PM

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