[Maxxxpower]

I'll gladly show you! Tell me what important use cases you have that require specs used for 1080p video recording @ 60fps.

Important use cases are even everyday usage of the preinstalled apps - noticeably faster on Z30 and Passport. Who told you that "1080p video recording @ 60fps" would be the only advantage worth mentioning?

But seeing your username, I guess it's "just because"

D'oh!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_to_the_Max

[SlackerKing]

A lot of the reviewers view the Classic from the point of view as consumers. They miss the point in that the Classic is supposed to be a highly pilferable endpoint of a secure Enterprise wide communication system.

As a consumer device the Classic is half asleep. In a full up Enterprise environment a Classic brings a built in VPN client, a built in sandboxing client, the ability to side load approved in-house apps, and 100% integration with an MDM solution. Most importantly, from the point of view of an Enterprise a Blackberry Classic is easier to quantify in a risk management framework than other vendor solutions. If something goes wrong then IT support is working with a smaller gaggle of vendors than what happens with other Enterprise solutions. Add all that together and maintenance of the device's certification and accreditation is fairly easy. So a "fully awake" Classic priced at $400 is OK. Besides, $400 is only a starting point, the network carrier will negotiate the price with the account manager.

If I look at the Classic as a pure consumer device then yep, it's not competitive. Maybe if BlackBerry were to offer independent professionals a service to utilize all the Enterprise level stuff then it'd sell better in the consumer market.

[howarmat]

I'll gladly show you! Tell me what important use cases you have that require specs used for 1080p video recording @ 60fps. But seeing your username, I guess it's "just because"

Posted via CB10

slow motion video would be the first thing that comes to my mind. For some people that is really nice to have available instead of having to get an actual video camera

[MarsupilamiX]

Can somebody give this dude a dictionary or tell him that "inexistant" is not a word?

I speak 3 languages throughout the day. Those are English, German and French (just to clarify further, German and French are both my native languages, and I got a Cambridge Certificate of English in the proficiency and business finance category).
All of those 3 languages use a lot of words that have a latin etymology and sometimes are also very (extremely) similar in their spelling.
So, it happens sometimes that I confuse myself and use the French spelling of a word when speaking English.
The correct word is if course inexistent, or nonexistent.

Sadly, this doesn't disqualify my statements in any way.

How do you still not know that ALL android apps are now available on bb10.2+ phones? If you dont, you shouls stop posting and making yourself look even dumber than continuously posting nonsense words like "inexistant" and nonsense figures you're pulling out of nowhere.

Maxxxpower said it already...
But if you truly believe that basically all Android apps are available and work; the fool you are talking about, might not be the fool you are looking for.

As for numbers...
They aren't pulled out of thin air, sorry to burst that bubble.
The Math is actually pretty simple (only + and -) and can be done by everyone willing to research the numbers.

Since Apple makes no keyboard phones, they are easy to deal with, in terms of keyboard market share.

Android seems more complicated at first, but the overwhelming majority of Androids made definitely don't have a keyboard.
All of the newer ones sold in "Western markets" don't have one.
Some local Android manufacturers in emerging markets still make cheap keyboard phones, but are an incredibly tiny amount of the market, so I will ignore them for the analysis because the exact number of devices sold wouldn't change much and because those keyboard phone buyers aren't even remotely in BlackBerry�s target market.

Leaving us with Blackberry.
They don't disclose the split between hardware categories. But we now know that the whole keyboard market is basically owned by BlackBerry.

So let's do the math:
Smartphones sold in 2014: between 1.2 and 1.4 Billion.
BlackBerries sold in 2014: 8.1 million going by Wikipedia (which is more than I calculated).
Makes for a market share of 0.62% (rounded), when I suppose 1.3 billion smartphones sold in 2014.

BB10 outsold BBOS in a 2/3 split throughout most of the year.
BBOS phones are pretty much all keyboard phones, giving them a 0.21% market share.
Which leaves us with BB10. .. We suppose a 50/50 split between keyboard and touchscreen (I rather think that it's in the 30/70 regions), adding another 0.21%.

Voil�, we just got 0.42% (which I called 0.5% because I didn't include the newest numbers). The market share of keyboard phones sold throughout the year of 2014.
Which leaves us with 99.58% for touchscreen phones.

When I say that it would be a miracle if the Classic achieves a share of 0.1% of the market in 2015, I am totally serious.

There is a market for these phones - its not the fools who use iphones - its the enterprise market who wants to upgraded from the outdated bolds, and dont want to pay top dollar for the bada$$ passports for all their entry level staff/junior associates, and it is selling well to that segment at the very least.

Actually no, currently we have no idea if those phones sell well.
We haven't heard anything from the Passport since the early days, and the Classic hasn't even been available for a month on the market place.
There is no indication that it sells well, while all past metrics clearly show that keyboards are a negative differentiatior for the overwhelming majority of the market.

The typical BlackBerry enterprise user also wasn't a Bold user. He was a Curve user (before he switched to a BYOD paradigm or his enterprise switched away from BlackBerry). The Classic is also far too expensive to be a real Curve replacement.

You're assuming that the you are able to know if the Classic is actually the first decently selling BB10 device after 2 years of the platform's birth, even though none of the devices running on that platform have sold decently until now, the phone has a form factor that is not desired in the marketplace anymore and the phone has only been available for 3 weeks...
And you honestly took yourself seriously enough to doubt the market share of keyboard phones I gave you (99.5%) ?

[dmsbang]

I work for a Fortune 500 company and in 2011 we left BlackBerry for Apple iPhone. We are seriously regretting it and will be switching back to BlackBerry this year thanks to the Classic.

22,500 employees in which about half use enterprise phones.

Posted via Ganon the Z30

[dmsbang]

Also, I know some people who work for Waste Management which employees about 43,000 people. At least 50% of them use enterprise BlackBerry phones (Bold 9900/30). They are also switching to Classic.

This is what BlackBerry is focusing on with the Classic, Enterprise. This is a considerable upgrade to the Bold.

Posted via Ganon the Z30

[Ecm]

​Time-out everyone. Let's chill for a bit then get back on track.

[Ecm]

[WARN]OK, a few of the worst off-topic comments (and where they were quoted) have been deleted. If I had deleted all the BS we wouldn't have much of a thread left...

This review has sparked some "interesting" comments and wildly differing interpretations. That's to be expected. If someone makes a particularly provocative comment they can expect an equal and opposite reaction. Please review your comments before posting!

Going forward, if you disagree with someone's opinions or interpretations, do so in a civil manner and don't get personal. If you can't -- perhaps it's time to move on to another thread.

This thread may have reached it's "best-before date", but we'll give it one more shot.[/WARN]

[Bbnivende]

�BlackBerry Classic is the powerful communications tool that many BlackBerry Bold and Curve users have been waiting for,� Chief Executive Officer John Chen said in a statement, noting that the device brings back the command bar functionalities that helped make its legacy devices easy to navigate.


I think this statement is a fallacy. Those who currently use a Curve must have very minimal needs in this day. They will use their Curve's until they die and are more likely to purchase any phone that combines cheap data and a low purchase price. As for Bold 9900 users - they might have purchased a Classic had it come to the market fully formed back in February 2013. I think by in large the niche is dying and they ( both enterprise and consumer ) are moving to all touch phones.

Is there a market for the Classic. Yes there is but probably at the high end and at the low end. There are users who would want a device just as capable as the latest iPhone and there is a market for the PKB as a cheap prepaid phone.
The market is not large but large enough to sustain the form factor.

Like most 9900 users I thought that I needed a PKB phone and that I could never use a virtual keyboard . I was wrong. I do not mind the Classic - If I wanted one I would not be put off by the price. What I want is a high end nicely designed , quality built, excellent screened, superb camera, light but with a decent battery all touch phone. Maybe BlackBerry should have followed Googles lead and just have LG or whomever make their all touch phones.

So Yes, the Classic is slightly over priced and no they will not sell as well as BlackBerry had hoped for but it is not and will not be a dud. BlackBerry desperately needs a Z30 replacement and the Rio if they want to reach their 10 million unit goal.

[slagman5]

Theoretically I agree with you that those who absolutely need a toolbelt and a keyboard, won't be that price elastic.
Yes BlackBerry owns the keyboard market.
But even then, that wasn't enough to have the phone division profitable last year (or the year before, or the other one before that).
It therefore begs the question, if there are still enough buyers out there, who need that keyboard and toolbelt combination over anything else. The sale numbers from the last few years rather show that this isn't the case.

Man, this is not at all meant as a personal thing and I don't intend it to be mean-spirited, but you keep on not understanding how business works. Making a profit has very little to do with the sheer number of devices sold. It has all to do with how many devices you NEED to sell, which can be a small amount or a large amount. And it all boils down to their goals and their supply matching those goals. That is why a company can go from profitable to not profitable or vice-versa with just a change in management and not a change in actual sales. With Heinz, he was producing millions of devices and they were only selling in the hundreds of thousands. So he lost money. If the Classic only sells hundreds of thousands of units, as long as our new CEO planned accordingly and matched the production and the size of the investment for a sal of hundreds of thousands of units, they would make a profit from it. The Classic could sell 10 million units and lose money if they planned to sell 100 million. It's not the actual number, it's about accurately projecting the sales.

That's not to say that profits from a few hundred thousand units is enough to sustain a company for the entire year, but that's a moot point to argue since the Classic is not and will not be BB's only device they sell to the consumer market.

Again, this is why BB was profitable back when they only sold hundreds of thousands of devices for the entire year. Because their company overhead was less since they were sized to sell only that amount. Their issue recently is that the company has grown and was structured to sell millions of devices, but that wasn't what happened. That's the reason all of those lay-offs were the absolute right thing to do. They need to down-size the company to match the sales once again and they will be profitable if they manage to do that.

Edit: And on another note, damn I love this phone. To reply to your comment, since you quoted and replied to many others, first I used the trackpad to highlight and delete the other parts of your comment that didn't apply to me. Then I typed my entire response on the phone and I think I only made one mistake that I had to go back and correct. This keyboard is freakin' amazing, I feel like I'm back on the Bold 9900 typing this easily...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[Xenolock]

So why isn't anyone figuring in the cost and value of the keyboard in the Classic in their 'it's too expensive' arguments? I understand it's more expensive than many people would want to pay right now, but $450 is the early adopter price. Pretty much all early adopters off-contract pay a premium in this market. Fleet price will be certainly cheaper, and 6 months down the road you'll be able to get it cheaper as an individual.

Doesn't it take a lot more in tooling and R&D to produce the new keyboard than to produce just a touchscreen? Even the most negative reviewers have stated in unambiguous terms that the Classic has the BEST keyboard ever put on a mobile phone. Why doesn't that count as a 'spec?'

Someone with shortcuts set up and mastery over the OS using toolbelt and keyboard will likely be able to navigate and use the Classic--producing considerably more actions per minute--way faster than an all-touch device of a similar price point. The reviewer himself basically said, 'ya, the benchmarks suck, but it actually works very well in real-world usage.'

What use are benchmarks if the data from them does not reflect real-world use? Why should I value artificial benchmarks over the efficiency of operation and Real-Time operating system of a BB10?

From a Z30

[MarsupilamiX]

If you want a BlackBerry to be priced at a Huwaii or some other cheap brand, then BlackBerry will be out of the hardware game by June. A cost leadership strategy requires marketshare which they don't have.

RedBerry Passport / 10.3.1.1133 / Telus

I didn't say on the level of Huawei.
That's impossible for BlackBerry, in their current form.
I did however imply, that they should price their devices more like Huawei.

You think that the price war won't happen in "western markets"? You don't think that the local Android manufacturers will start to enter those markets? You haven't seen those local manufacturers already making huge advancements in terms of marketshare?

BlackBerry isn't a luxury manufacturer, and most phones are can be used in a business setup nowadays.
BlackBerry will have to enter the price war, just like they entered the spec war with the Passport.

"Western markets" are already saturated and have matured.
The smartphone growth we see now, is mostly sustained by emerging markets.
Markets where the ASP is far lower than in "western" ones.
As a manufacturer who needs growth, BlackBerry will have a hard time in mature markets, simply because of the development stage of that market. In emerging markets, BlackBerry can't compete because of the price.
You just have to look at Samsung. They already start to suffer because of the price war and the non-differentiated nature of Android.

I disagree with your interpretation of the review where you have stated "The verdict, that it's an overpriced device for basically no one" - my interpretation of the review is that they are stating that the Classic is a product aimed at a niche market and that the off-Contract price is steep.

My reading between the lines is that the niche market is one in which the Classic will be purchased in bulk and on-contract, in which case the off-Contract price is of little importance, except in that salespeople will then be able to state that they are offering huge %age discounts....

Regarding your first paragraph, I'd say that we are thinking along the same lines, but that I am more on the pessimistic side, while you are rather positive.
I just don't believe that the niche is actually that big.

Which is also the reason why I would say that the huge bulk purchases of the Classic won't happen.
There's nearly no business anymore, who actually needs a phone like the BlackBerry Classic. It therefore begs the question, if overpricing the phone is the correct choice?

The off contract price is also of huge importance for emerging markets, as the whole "on-contract thing", isn't really a thing there.

[MaxxxBerry23]

Important use cases are even everyday usage of the preinstalled apps - noticeably faster on Z30 and Passport.

This is exactly what I didn't notice - which apps do you mean explicitly?

I simply don't think that this extra power is of any use with a BlackBerry, or in the casual usage of most general smartphone users even and therefore deem the outrage as unnecessary.

Posted via CB10

[Matzuka Reign]

Does the classic have a built in FM tuner like the q10? How is the speaker?

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

[MaxxxBerry23]

I didn't check for the FM-Tuner yet, but the speaker is noticeably louder and clearer as the Q10 and an iPhone 5S for comparison. I've been especially surprised how responsive the base and how deep the sound was.

Posted via CB10

[Alain_A]

If the classic become hotseller For the business the price will never go down

From Classic

[MarsupilamiX]

Man, this is not at all meant as a personal thing and I don't intend it to be mean-spirited, but you keep on not understanding how business works. Making a profit has very little to do with the sheer number of devices sold. It has all to do with how many devices you NEED to sell, which can be a small amount or a large amount. And it all boils down to their goals and their supply matching those goals. That is why a company can go from profitable to not profitable or vice-versa with just a change in management and not a change in actual sales. With Heinz, he was producing millions of devices and they were only selling in the hundreds of thousands. So he lost money. If the Classic only sells hundreds of thousands of units, as long as our new CEO planned accordingly and matched the production and the size of the investment for a sal of hundreds of thousands of units, they would make a profit from it. The Classic could sell 10 million units and lose money if they planned to sell 100 million. It's not the actual number, it's about accurately projecting the sales.

That's not to say that profits from a few hundred thousand units is enough to sustain a company for the entire year, but that's a moot point to argue since the Classic is not and will not be BB's only device they sell to the consumer market.

Again, this is why BB was profitable back when they only sold hundreds of thousands of devices for the entire year. Because their company overhead was less since they were sized to sell only that amount. Their issue recently is that the company has grown and was structured to sell millions of devices, but that wasn't what happened. That's the reason all of those lay-offs were the absolute right thing to do. They need to down-size the company to match the sales once again and they will be profitable if they manage to do that.

Edit: And on another note, damn I love this phone. To reply to your comment, since you quoted and replied to many others, first I used the trackpad to highlight and delete the other parts of your comment that didn't apply to me. Then I typed my entire response on the phone and I think I only made one mistake that I had to go back and correct. This keyboard is freakin' amazing, I feel like I'm back on the Bold 9900 typing this easily...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

No, I understand that perfectly and I have said more than once that the downsizing was necessary, because the enterprise became too big, for their sales volume.

I also understand that inventory, supply and what not management is important. I didn't study international management to not know that.

Where you seem to be confused, is that I am not just talking about the concept of planning correctly.
The way you say it, sounds like all they have to do, is order the right amount of parts and everything will work out fine.
If you really believe that it is that simple for BlackBerry, I would probably need tell you, that you should inform yourself better.

BlackBerry doesn't exist in a vacuum. They actively compete with other manufacturers. It's not enough to just sell a few handsets if they want to stay in the hardware business in the longer term. The app situation for example, is directly linked to that. Because of the marketshare BlackBerry has, devs aren't interested. This won't change, if BlackBerry is more or less profitable, as long as the market share stays that low.
And a reason for the low market share is the lack of an ecosystem.

It also isn't exactly a revelation, that a business which builds too many products they can't sell, will have a negative balance sheet.
But you know... The downsized BlackBerry doesn't overproduce, but still isn't profitable.

I mean, if I follow your train of thought, you would probably just tell me that BlackBerry could get even smaller, if they still aren't profitable now, is that correct?
Well, producing phones just for the sake of exactly producing so many that you don't have to leave the business, is a losing strategy in the mid to long run. Not to mention, that BlackBerry doesn't even talk about profits, they talk about being break-even.
Anyhow, for such a strategy, it's obvious that there's no growth. BlackBerry isn't really diversified either, so it binds capital. They still have one single point of failure there, if the rest of their operations aren't really profitable. With BlackBerry's own formulated goals, they will never have a real native ecosystem. If Google decides to change how Android works, BlackBerry HAD apps.

Meanwhile the phones from the competition just get cheaper and cheaper, while gaining even more advantages over BlackBerry.
And the security USP BlackBerry still has right now, also won't help them forever.
Given enough time, the competition will catch up in that area as well.
It's a losing strategy to be happy with 0.6% marketshare, when you're not a luxury manufacturer.

@Edit:
Yeah, I bought a Passport today.
I hope that it'll simplify my work flow and text manipulations.
Let's see.

[matt4pack]

I just don't like it when people say it's overpriced for the specs. So what other phone has a backlit keyboard and trackpad that we can make a comparison against?

One doesn't exist so why aren't those features counted as specs also? Comparing with any full touch device that comes with a free os is an apples to oranges comparison.

The physical keyboard has to be customized for different languages and how about all the software engineering that goes into making a trackpad and keyboard shortcuts work which doesn't exist anywhere else? All that adds costs. At least someone is being different in a sea of generic slab phones.

Posted via CB10

[BigAl_BB9900]

I just don't like it when people say it's overpriced for the specs. So what other phone has a backlit keyboard and trackpad that we can make a comparison against?

One doesn't exist so why aren't those features counted as specs also? Comparing with any full touch device that comes with a free os is an apples to oranges comparison.

The physical keyboard has to be customized for different languages and how about all the software engineering that goes into making a trackpad and keyboard shortcuts work which doesn't exist anywhere else? All that adds costs. At least someone is being different in a sea of generic slab phones.

Posted via CB10

Agreed. A lot of people are just comparing Hardware specs, usually against Android phones.

What I don't see many comparisons of, (versus non-BlackBerry phones), in these types of reviews are: functionality, usabilty, Security.

Companies are looking for products that fulfil their needs, they don't give a hoot what version processor is in a phone, they just care about (in my corporate experience in order of priority): Security, Functionality, Integration with Corporate Email & Calendar, Easy to Use / Short Learning Curve, Durability, and Cost (though cost moves up and down the order of priorities depending on which organisation I work for).

[dmsbang]

Remember, physical keyboard phones like the Classic allow the T shortcut to automatically go to top of page and B to go to bottom. This is particularly good for threads like these with people's thesis type comments!

BlackBerry Classic for Life!

Posted via Ganon the Z30

[Ecm]

Remember, physical keyboard phones like the Classic allow the T shortcut to automatically go to top of page and B to go to bottom. This is particularly good for threads like these with people's thesis type comments!

BlackBerry Classic for Life!

Posted via Ganon the Z30

Actually, I do this on my Z30. Two finger swipe up from the bottom to bring up the keyboard, tap T or B. But granted, it is an extra step.

[dmsbang]

Actually, I do this on my Z30. Two finger swipe up from the bottom to bring up the keyboard, tap T or B. But granted, it is an extra step.

I try this on my Z30 and tapping T or B does nothing...is there a setting I'm missing?

Posted via Ganon the Z30

[Ecm]

I try this on my Z30 and tapping T or B does nothing...is there a setting I'm missing?

Posted via Ganon the Z30

You can't be in a text entry field when you do so. But there's no specific setting.

[slagman5]

No, I understand that perfectly and I have said more than once that the downsizing was necessary, because the enterprise became too big, for their sales volume.

I also understand that inventory, supply and what not management is important. I didn't study international management to not know that.

Where you seem to be confused, is that I am not just talking about the concept of planning correctly.
The way you say it, sounds like all they have to do, is order the right amount of parts and everything will work out fine.
If you really believe that it is that simple for BlackBerry, I would probably need tell you, that you should inform yourself better.

BlackBerry doesn't exist in a vacuum. They actively compete with other manufacturers. It's not enough to just sell a few handsets if they want to stay in the hardware business in the longer term. The app situation for example, is directly linked to that. Because of the marketshare BlackBerry has, devs aren't interested. This won't change, if BlackBerry is more or less profitable, as long as the market share stays that low.
And a reason for the low market share is the lack of an ecosystem.

It also isn't exactly a revelation, that a business which builds too many products they can't sell, will have a negative balance sheet.
But you know... The downsized BlackBerry doesn't overproduce, but still isn't profitable.

I mean, if I follow your train of thought, you would probably just tell me that BlackBerry could get even smaller, if they still aren't profitable now, is that correct?
Well, producing phones just for the sake of exactly producing so many that you don't have to leave the business, is a losing strategy in the mid to long run. Not to mention, that BlackBerry doesn't even talk about profits, they talk about being break-even.
Anyhow, for such a strategy, it's obvious that there's no growth. BlackBerry isn't really diversified either, so it binds capital. They still have one single point of failure there, if the rest of their operations aren't really profitable. With BlackBerry's own formulated goals, they will never have a real native ecosystem. If Google decides to change how Android works, BlackBerry HAD apps.

Meanwhile the phones from the competition just get cheaper and cheaper, while gaining even more advantages over BlackBerry.
And the security USP BlackBerry still has right now, also won't help them forever.
Given enough time, the competition will catch up in that area as well.
It's a losing strategy to be happy with 0.6% marketshare, when you're not a luxury manufacturer.

@Edit:
Yeah, I bought a Passport today.
I hope that it'll simplify my work flow and text manipulations.
Let's see.

Um, speaking of not being in a vacuum, you are speaking like the Classic is the only device they are creating, which it isn't. It was never meant to be the backbone of their entire hardware strategy. It was always just to get the legacy hold-outs away from their legacy devices. That is not at all a strategy to make overall profits for the company. I don't get how this is such a hard concept to explain. If it's still not understood, then don't worry about it dude. I'll end it here and let you get the last word, it's getting nowhere fast...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[slagman5]

Actually, I do this on my Z30. Two finger swipe up from the bottom to bring up the keyboard, tap T or B. But granted, it is an extra step.

Extra step and requires both hands. It's good to include those shortcuts for all-touch devices, but personally I'll take the one less step and one-handed approach. I'll gladly sacrifice movie-watching ability for that.

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10