[MarsupilamiX]

Isn't Apple audience "ever shrinking"? They keep losing market share to Android. Sooooooo.......should they stop making iPhones?

The audience isn't shrinking in absolute numbers.
The iPhone is the single most sold phone in the world.
Apple makes huge profits with their phones.

Keyboard phone users are a shrinking niche in terms of absolute numbers.
There isn't one single well selling keyboard phone in the market.
BlackBerry doesn't make any profits at all. Not even talking about huge.

One of the worst analogies I have read from you, and that's quite telling. There are no similarities considering the positioning in the market place between those 2 enterprises.

It's not useless if the discussion is about simply having more demand than inventory you've invested in. It means you didn't lose money and can potentially make more money. Again, business 101.

It's useless if there is no growth.
BlackBerry, even though they downsized so heavily, still aren't profitable.
And the phone division even less so.

It's great that they don't overproduce.
But currently, the level of demand BlackBerry has is far too low, compared to the level of demand they would need.
They can't get profitable with the numbers of devices they are currently selling.
But this might be business 102 already...

And you are such an expert that all of us should be listening to your advice - ROFL! - I happen to love the Classic - specs or no specs!. I don't look at buying a phone as if I'm buying a new car - $500, $600 or whatever is chump change, use it for a few months and on to the next.

I surely am an expert in certain areas (like market analysis) and a clueless person when it comes down to other areas (like quantum mechanics).
So you can or cannot believe me.
As long as there won't be a huge shift in buyer's preference the Classic won't become a success.

Now, if that is an advice... I am actually not sure. I don't think that I gave you any advice. If anything, it's just an observation. Saying that the Classic was a bad product to be released, in the current market paradigm wasn't any kind of advice and to you.

I am also happy for you that you can afford all of the phones you want.
Usually I buy 2 high-end phones a year.
Which doesn't mean that I will willingly buy an overpriced Classic
(I am interested in a Passport 2 or the Visa though).

Regardless of how cheap they made it, if someone doesn't want a pkb, they will not buy it. If BB wants to make a cheap marketable device, it has to be all-touch. The market for pkb with trackpad pretty much belongs to BB, which is why they could charge a bit more for it. Now if they release an all-touch device with entry-level specs and charge a premium for it, then that's definitely a mistake. But with the Classic, it's pretty much their opportunity to squeeze out a bit more profit margin. Price it low or high I don't think it would have made a significant difference in the number of units sold...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

Theoretically I agree with you that those who absolutely need a toolbelt and a keyboard, won't be that price elastic.
Yes BlackBerry owns the keyboard market.
But even then, that wasn't enough to have the phone division profitable last year (or the year before, or the other one before that).
It therefore begs the question, if there are still enough buyers out there, who need that keyboard and toolbelt combination over anything else. The sale numbers from the last few years rather show that this isn't the case.

The thing that makes Android phones so cheap is also that OEMs have minimal software development costs related to the OS. Android is there and ready to go, while BB must continue developing BB10 on their own.

Which is part of BlackBerry's business model.
If that model isn't sustainable, then BlackBerry just has a worse model than said Android manufacturer.

As usual, if BlackBerry isn't competitive in the mid to long term with their hardware division, the hardware division will exit the market.

BB10 doesn't lack business friendly apps. It's BB's job to convince the world that people still want to use them, they are still serious and dedicate to business, and that making BB apps....even if you charge more for them....is a worthwhile endeavor.

Yes, compared to other platforms BlackBerry lacks a lot of business specific apps in the app store already.
When it comes down to custom enterprise apps, BB10 is miles behind the competition.
To say that BlackBerry has no disadvantage here, shows the usual fanboyism.

And yes, it's BlackBerry's job to convince the devs. But you know what isn't convincing?
0.5% marketshare.
1:1 screen ratio, that you have to specifically design for, if the standard is completely somewhere else.
3.5 inch screens.
Specs that can't run the newest Android apps (which would be needed, because the native ecosystem is inexistant).

Sure, you could sell more at minimum profit, or sell less at a maximum profit. Either way....you made a profit. I'm guessing the insiders at BB now this forumla better than people guessing on blogs.

Did you miss the Playbook/Z10/Q10/Q5/Z30?
None were priced correctly and the market rejected all of them.
Some have been more overpriced (write off) than others though.

So if anything, you should doubt that those guys know it better than some people guessing on blogs.

You just made a massive assumption. Some people may be just fine with their Iphone and have never experienced anything different and don't know the difference. The reason you see people everywhere with Iphones, etc. is that they've chosen to buy them compared to the old BB that they knew before. They don't know anything about the new ones at all....so those that might be interested in a PKB, or a more efficient operating system, or getting away from all the drawback of Iphone, don't really know they have that choice. That's BB's horrible marketing (or complete lack of it).

Or people made a conscious choice to stay with a mature platform that actually has an ecosystem, an app store filled with apps and the correct price/performance ratio.
Which would include iOS and Android, while excluding BB10 for basically everyone.
You want a high-end touchscreen phone? Not from BlackBerry.
Further limiting the potential appeal to the 1.4 billion smartphone buyers last year.
You want a normally priced touchscreen phone with rather good specs (everything over a Z30)? Not from BlackBerry.
You want a BB10 Curve? Not from BlackBerry.
A BB10 Bold ? Nah, still no phone BlackBerry would produce.

If anything, the product portfolio and the bad pricing structure paired with the lack of an ecosystem/app store, explains why people don't want the new BlackBerry phones.
The lack of marketing is just something that doesn't make it better.

Commanding a hefty premium? First your argument is that the premium is TOO HIGH...now you're saying they can't command that premium on a phone that they sold out of. Please pick an argument and stick with it.

And, last I checked, Bentley's are sold to an every shrinking niche, but they didn't stop catering to that market....and yet.....they are still competitive as people choose to buy them over some other luxury car.

As always, your reading comprehension can't keep up with your imaginary wit.

I said that a niche manufacturer needs a premium over other manufacturers and then I said that BlackBerry can't justify the premium they are asking for. The concept isn't hard to understand.
The Classic (just like the Z30/Z10/Q10/Q5/PlayBook) is unjustifiably overpriced. And as was said a million times on these forums already: being sold out means nothing at all, for BlackBerry, when we don't know how many they sold. Compared to Apple, BlackBerry doesn't talk about the figures, and we all know why. Because they are effing bad.

BlackBerry wants to sell the Classic for a price that is reserved for phones of the highest end of the mid-tier (or high-end phones out of China), even though the Classic is an entry level phone. It won't work well. Simple as that. The Classic should have been the BB10 Curve, reasonably priced to get emerging markets on board and enterprise customers as well.
At 450$, it just won't happen.

Now onto the car analogy, which is yet another one of the worst I have read in a long time. Simply because you don't know your facts.
Bentleys are not sold to an ever shrinking niche. In the whole history of humanity, we have never seen more rich people than today. The luxury sector has never been bigger, than in this millennium.

Since around 1920, until today, Bentley got sold around 3 times and ended up in the VW conglomerate.
They were broke and useless quite a number of times. Since being part of Volkswagen though, they have become immensely successful.
Actually so successful that they had their best year since their foundation in 2013. IIRC they sold slightly over 10k cars.

Furthermore Bentley is a luxury car brand. BlackBerry on the contrary, is not a luxury brand and has never been one.
The ASP of a Bentley is in the 300k range.
What's a good BMW? 60k?
So the Bentley costs 6 times more than a "normal" premium car.
What's a BlackBerry Passport? 600$. What's an Android flagship? 600$.

I am sure that I could find more points why this analogy is bad, but the worst part of it all, is how clueless you are when it comes down to the subjects of your analogy. "Bentley is catering to a shrinking niche", must have been one of the most clueless comments I have read in a while.
To suppose that there is anything worthy of a comparison between BlackBerry and Bentley for this discussion, was the second funny thing.

[MarsupilamiX]

Most of these Classic phones are going to be purchased by huge corporate businesses for their employees. They will gladly spend the money for the functionality and SECURITY those higher spec phones can't provide...

Posted via Ganon the Z30

Get a good MDM, lock down the phones and you have a degree of security that is big enough for most workers.

I only talked about Chinese manufacturers to make a point about the Classic and the correct pricing with that hardware, that app store and that ecosystem.

We could just take 450$ phones from Apple or established Android manufacturers as another if you want.
At 450$ I can nearly get last year's Android flagship or an iPhone 5 (or even a Nexus 5 for 300$).
And all of these options include better specs, a better ecosystem and a better app store coupled with more enterprise specific apps, than the Classic.

The Classic is a tough sell even in the enterprise. BlackBerry's growth in terms of sale numbers came mostly through the affordable Curves. Both in the enterprise and consumer market.
The Classic is priced outside of that market... Which was the biggest part of BlackBerry's buyers.

[dmsbang]

I'd spend upwards of $500 for a classic, but I'm rich so I guess it doesn't matter...

Posted via Ganon the Z30

[MarsupilamiX]

Because of exclusivity. BB is the only one offering a keyboard. Supply and demand, if you want a keyboard, you have to pay the price.

You are not the people they are trying to appeal to.

Want less outdated, you have the Passport.

Keyboard phones this year had a marketshare of under 0.5%.
The people who are willing to forego a fairer price/performance (including app stores, ecosystem, after sale support, specs) for a keyboard are getting less and less every single year.

And making the overpriced Classic probably won't help that cause.

[dmsbang]

To me, specs stopped mattering on smartphones a couple years ago. Just like TVs, how good do you really want? Simply put, many people think higher specs make them as a person higher class and wiser if they own one. Give me functionality and form factor all day long, and if the specs are at least 2013 specs, then it will be plenty sufficient enough.

Many of those doubters will find themselves secretly wanting the Classic. It will be in their dreams...

Posted via Ganon the Z30

[dmsbang]

You can go grocery shopping and either buy Pringles or Lay's Stacks. I buy Pringles because they're the original "Classic" form factor I've always enjoyed and I know I'm going to like the taste and texture. I'll even pay more for them.

I'd compare the BlackBerry Classic to Pringles and all the other smartphones to Lay's Stacks.

Posted via Ganon the Z30

[Bold_until_Hybrid_Comes]

If the next classic/bold type device has modern specs ill buy it after my passport.

[MaxxxBerry23]

]Give me functionality and form factor all day long, and if the specs are at least 2013 specs, then it will be plenty sufficient enough.

Exactly this. Plus I have used P'9983, Classic and Passport side by side and guess what? None of them is faster than the other. No one needs specs as high as the Classic has if it isn't for shutting up S5 and 6+ users.

I gladly payed the money for the Classic. Easy one handed use, great battery, great form factor. I only use my phones for calling, checking into flights, snapping a few pics for Instagram, music and messaging, messaging, messaging. I could care less about the Passport and its specs - They're as useless as a Lambo in a traffic jam when all you have is one free hand on the go.

It's absolutely laughable how everyone loved the size and form factor of the 9900, mocked phablets and android apps in 2011 and now that its available from BlackBerry suddenly this is exactly what everyone wants. Hypocrites.

[Plazmic Flame]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but that image says 62 hrs on the battery test??

I'm going to call straight up BS. That must be some weak test.

[Bbnivende]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but that image says 62 hrs on the battery test??

I'm going to call straight up BS. That must be some weak test.

It is a cumulative of tests each of which run the battery run down to zero. The tests are the same for all and do not reflect the real world use of a phone like the Classic which is expected to be used mainly for communications rather than video or games etc.

[Bbnivende]

The GSM review is fair but the real test should be a comparison between the Classic and a 9900. Will the Classic more than meet the needs of enterprise users wanting to keep with a PKB.

[BigBadWulf]

The GSM review is fair but the real test should be a comparison between the Classic and a 9900. Will the Classic more than meet the needs of enterprise users wanting to keep with a PKB.

The big immediate problem for the enterprise user, will be the discovery there are less business apps, not more. That spec may be the most crippling of all.

Someone joked they thought this was a fanboy forum. I'm a fanboy, and would like nothing more than BlackBerry's success. I'm also a realist. While the consumer bought out initial supplies, the BES customer has one at IT in testing. If the Classic doesn't have available that which they require to conduct business, they'll stick with their old Bolds, or move on like most already have.

Much as I love them, BlackBerry as a handset company is a confusing mess right now. I'm not sure what the future holds, but it doesn't look promising through my eyes. They're not providing to prosumer or consumer. Heck, they've yet to have a BB10 product launch with an OS worth a crap on it.

[dmsbang]

I've had several BB10 devices and they have all worked fine, for business and for entertainment. Clearly some people look way much into specs and apps. I've used Bold 9930, Z10, Q10, Z30 and they've all sufficed. The Bold being the worst of the bunch because it's dated. Blackberry is just fine and will continue to rebound.

Posted via Ganon the Z30

[BigAl_BB9900]

The Benchmarks are brutal. Every 150$ smartphone out of China gets better benchmarks.
The price of their hardware.... Is ridiculous.

The verdict, that it's an overpriced device for basically no one, is the same as in pretty other review.

It was written in a friendlier way than most other reviews though.
Overall, the tone is basically the same in all of the non CrackBerry reviews I read:

Overpriced
Underspecced
Inexistant Ecosystem
Allegedly for BlackBerry diehards, but....
Who should actually buy this outdated and overpriced phone, even within the BlackBerry community?

But, to read a review that actually puts a focus on the potential target market (I doubt that this market actually still exists though), has practically no biased negativity, and was actually thorough, is nice for a change.

I disagree with your interpretation of the review where you have stated "The verdict, that it's an overpriced device for basically no one" - my interpretation of the review is that they are stating that the Classic is a product aimed at a niche market and that the off-Contract price is steep.

My reading between the lines is that the niche market is one in which the Classic will be purchased in bulk and on-contract, in which case the off-Contract price is of little importance, except in that salespeople will then be able to state that they are offering huge %age discounts....

[Blacklatino]

The key is how well the Classic sells- overall....... thru BES, current BlackBerry consumers upgrades, consumers from other platforms crossing over, etc. While some are anticipating the "potential" Classic 2, is the current actually selling and how well? Anyway,the who and how many can be worked out later. My main interest is how many Q10 owners are upgrading to or passing on the Classic? I saw the thread by unhappy Q10 owners about the Classic. However, people can and do change their minds, all the time. I passed on the Z30 after at&t passed on it.....just to get two a year later instead of going to another platform as an alternative. Wife's idea and glad I listened, too. While we tend to defend BlackBerry against all naysayers(I get it), these type of review articles are just another opinion. If you don't like BlackBerry, it will get shrugged off as yeah, we knew that already. You can and will get the why you want a BlackBerry question/BlackBerry is Dead statement from most carrier reps........all day. These type of articles are reposted by owners of BlackBerries and there is nothing wrong with that. However, it's the BlackBerry consumers that usually take these articles at more than face -value......with CrackBerry-a-holics getting on the defensive and others actually letting the review articles (along with trending peers and coworkers adding pressure) influence their future purchasing decisions. IMHO, after 10+ years of using BlackBerries, these articles don't mean much to me. As long as my BlackBerry can perform at the level I want, the articles are somewhat informative and always amusing-especially the reaction(s) to the articles.

[thymaster]

Agreed. Do those $150 cheap Chinese hardware company make their own software or even optimize the software with hardware? All they did was put on a slab of free Android OS from Google to their hardware.

Blackberry engineered their phone from the ground up from software to hardware and optimizing features to full capabilities is what makes Blackberry special.

Overpriced for the specs, but does any of those $150 phones have a physical keyboard and an OS that take advantage of the keyboard using shortcuts, universal search, speed dialing, etc.?? So yes, for the specs, it's overpriced, but there are no other phones with the features that I want.

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[Maxxxpower]

Exactly this. Plus I have used P'9983, Classic and Passport side by side and guess what? None of them is faster than the other. No one needs specs as high as the Classic has if it isn't for shutting up S5 and 6+ users.

Had a good laugh at that...
...and 640K RAM is enough for anybody

[jgill072]

It was written in a friendlier way than most other reviews though.
Overall, the tone is basically the same in all of the non CrackBerry reviews I read:

Overpriced
Underspecced
Inexistant Ecosystem
Allegedly for BlackBerry diehards, but....
Who should actually buy this outdated and overpriced phone, even within the BlackBerry community?

Can somebody give this dude a dictionary or tell him that "inexistant" is not a word? or that his nonsense 99.5 (or sometimes 99.9)% of people blah blah numbers are just as nonsense as his make-believe "inexistant" word? How do you still not know that ALL android apps are now available on bb10.2+ phones? If you dont, you shouls stop posting and making yourself look even dumber than continuously posting nonsense words like "inexistant" and nonsense figures you're pulling out of nowhere. There is a market for these phones - its not the fools who use iphones - its the enterprise market who wants to upgraded from the outdated bolds, and dont want to pay top dollar for the bada$$ passports for all their entry level staff/junior associates, and it is selling well to that segment at the very least. You're welcome. Now go get yourself a dictionary, or better yet, an iphone - youd fit right in with them, if you dont already have one.

[Maxxxpower]

1.

ALL android apps are now available on bb10.2+ phones?

Best joke ever.


2. Behaving like a spelling nazi and postings things like the quote above is simply ridiculous and clearly unveils the one who should

stop posting and making yourself look even dumber

and no, it's not MarsupilamiX.

[cbvinh]

It seems that one of the arguments against the Classic is its form factor, which means that a better spec'ed Classic, ala Classic II, would have been pointless to build as it would eat into BlackBerry's low volume profits and customers wouldn't be buying it anyway.

I think the important things to note are:

1. Bold $399 vs Classic $449, just $50 more
2. Bold screen 2.8" vs Classic screen 3.5", 56% more screen space, which is very noticable and more usable
3. Bold 5 MP camera vs Classic 8 MP camera + 2 MP front camera (video conferencing possible)
4. The Classic with BB10 is way faster than the Bold in usage overall

The question becomes, do you replace the Bold or replace with a Classic? That's the question for Enterprise. Sure, they could replace with another device/OS, but that also entails support and training.

As for future proofing, these customers are already fine with continued replacements with Bold's. As long as BlackBerry doesn't update the OS to something that could cripple the phone, like what happens to older model iPhones, then everything should be fine for these customers. (Actually, I'm curious what companies do with two year old+ iPhones. Do they all get upgrades that cripple them or do the phones stay OS locked to an older release?)

[bboldboy]

I can understand the argument that the BlackBerry Classic is light on specss and does not offer good value for the price. The counter-argument that specs and performance /user experience do not perfectly correlate, while true, is a hard one to make as specs and price provide very straight forward metrics upon which to make a purchase decision.
The better marketing approach would be for BlackBerry to introduce alternative metrics directly related to the performance needs of Blackberry's target sub-markets which are primarily business and professional. As argued on another thread ("Measuring BlackBerry Device Productivity "), these measures would be typing speed adjusted by accuracy, speed of text editing and speed of device navigation. Testing would involve putting sample groups through a set of tasks that were as close to real world as possible and that would measure all three. That should generate more relevant data for consumers (or "prosumers") and IT departments alike. It might even prove that there is a sub-group which is indeed faster on PKBs than VKBs, that no amount of exposure to the latter will change : but then again the data might support the opposite conclusion. It's hard -- but not impossible not-- to imagine that BlackBerry does not have that data. Using that data for their marketing should take the discussion away from specs to performance and productivity.

On Classic reviews, I had to chuckle at one appearing on ABC (I believe it was repeated on CTV in Canada and that iteration was discussed in this forum). The reviewer said he saw no advantage in the Classic's PKB, as he could type faster on VKB, a fair point. Then he allows that editing was easier on the Classic. However, that's no small issue in terms of device productivity and could well overturn any speed advantage of a VKB. Getting the data out there on editing time would blunt those arguments and also make the case for Blackberry's VKB's and the hybrid Passport where BlackBerry has paid a lot of attention to the challenge of editing.

[MaxxxBerry23]

Had a good laugh at that...
...and 640K RAM is enough for anybody

I'll gladly show you! Tell me what important use cases you have that require specs used for 1080p video recording @ 60fps. But seeing your username, I guess it's "just because"

Posted via CB10

[reeneebob]

Guess that's why its sold out everywhere and on backorder.. canadian carriers can't get them quick enough... yeah.. nobody interested (rolling eyes)..

Posted via CB10

Well for what it's worth my store has had two since launch and they are still in my cage so it's not exactly 'sold out everywhere and on back order'. If that was the case I'd have had other stores calling me to transfer stock by now.

I've shown them to several customers but so far it's a no go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[anon(832122)]

Can somebody give this dude a dictionary or tell him that "inexistant" is not a word? or that his nonsense 99.5 (or sometimes 99.9)% of people blah blah numbers are just as nonsense as his make-believe "inexistant" word? How do you still not know that ALL android apps are now available on bb10.2+ phones? If you dont, you shouls stop posting and making yourself look even dumber than continuously posting nonsense words like "inexistant" and nonsense figures you're pulling out of nowhere. There is a market for these phones - its not the fools who use iphones - its the enterprise market who wants to upgraded from the outdated bolds, and dont want to pay top dollar for the bada$$ passports for all their entry level staff/junior associates, and it is selling well to that segment at the very least. You're welcome. Now go get yourself a dictionary, or better yet, an iphone - youd fit right in with them, if you dont already have one.

Inexistent - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Did you really not know what he meant because of the spelling error?

[reeneebob]

How do you still not know that ALL android apps are now available on bb10.2+ phones?

No.

They aren't.

Inexistent - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Well played.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk