[slagman5]

It's of huge importance what most potential smartphone buyers want, if you are any outlet, apart from BlackBerry fan sites.
Those guys shouldn't look at a BlackBerry, like the CB editorial staff. It's their job to know exactly what other devices are capable of and why those are a better choice for some 99.5% of the market.

I also think that you missed the not so subtle hints in the NYT and the WSJ which all have the same thesis:
The device is meant for keyboard and legacy OS die hards. But is that actually still a market worth catering to?
And if yes, with those specs and price?

It's ALWAYS been targeted for the pkb and legacy die hards. Where have you been? The only issue if whether they make too many than what is demanded. As long as they had a realistic goal and they match their production for it, it can be successful even in smaller numbers. Remember that when BB was the top smartphone used in the world, they were actually selling fewer devices a year than they are now. The difference is the company was designed for a smaller volume than they are now. That's why they were profitable then and not now. It's not the sheer number that matters, but whether they meet the amount they plan to, and need to, sell in order to be considered a success...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[Amy wineBerry]

It's of huge importance what most potential smartphone buyers want, if you are any outlet, apart from BlackBerry fan sites.
Those guys shouldn't look at a BlackBerry, like the CB editorial staff. It's their job to know exactly what other devices are capable of and why those are a better choice for some 99.5% of the market.

I also think that you missed the not so subtle hints in the NYT and the WSJ which all have the same thesis:
The device is meant for keyboard and legacy OS die hards. But is that actually still a market worth catering to?
And if yes, with those specs and price?

I picked up on all "hints." The keyboard and legacy device faithfuls is the target market BlackBerry chose to cater to. Whether that's a viable business plan for BlackBerry remains to be seen. BlackBerry took that shot.

It's of major importance what most consumers want if the draw is toward most consumers. If that's not the target audience, the fact a business isn't catering to them is pretty moot. Ya know, niche and all.

None of the reviews I have read have stated that the Classic is the device for all. They have framed their review against that very point. And that's okay. Because the Classic never aspired to be more than what it is.

[redlightblinking]

It's of huge importance what most potential smartphone buyers want, if you are any outlet, apart from BlackBerry fan sites.
Those guys shouldn't look at a BlackBerry, like the CB editorial staff. It's their job to know exactly what other devices are capable of and why those are a better choice for some 99.5% of the market.

I also think that you missed the not so subtle hints in the NYT and the WSJ which all have the same thesis:
The device is meant for keyboard and legacy OS die hards. But is that actually still a market worth catering to?
And if yes, with those specs and price?

I guess the fact that they sold out the units they manufactured should answer your question. Any other questions?

And, you're only guessing that it's only for keyboard "die-hards." Many people who switched to other OS but miss their KB and belt may come back now that they can have the feel of a BB with the performance of a modern OS.

And the "legacy die-hards" mostly wanted the belt and various shortcuts..and since they accounted for over half of the BB sales last year, I'd say they might be worth something.

[MarsupilamiX]

So, just disregard your entire comment to me then right? Since the entire point of your comment that I replied to was about how few other people want that from there phone. So, ok, good talk. :-)

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

You didn't understand what I said then.
It's not about you caring, or me caring or whatever.
It's a matter of staying in the hardware business for BlackBerry.
Catering to an ever shrinking niche, without being able to command a hefty premium over your competitors, usually means that said business will stop catering to the market, as they simply aren't competitive.

So, I personally don't give an eff about people's preferences when they buy phones. It's just that everybody who actually likes the Classic or the Passport, is highly dependent on BlackBerry making phones that sell well.
And all of the reviews I read from non BlackBerry fansites clearly go in that direction.

In no way does that mean that you have to buy what others prefer. Or that you have to start to like what others want you to like.
It's simply a question of BlackBerry staying in the hardware business.
With their current product portfolio and sale numbers, it's pretty clear that the phone division isn't self-sufficient and I doubt (just like the majority of reviewers) that the Classic is the correct device to get to that point.

As I said, if the Classic can get a 0.1% marketshare in 2015, I'd call it a miracle.
This however, is completely independent to your personal preferences. You bought the Classic. You don't need to be convinced to buy it.
If BlackBerry wants to stay in the hardware business however, they don't need BlackBerry diehards. They need growth from other platforms (and yes, I mostly mean enterprise customers. Android and iOS have long overtaken BlackBerry in that sector), but the Classic surely won't achieve that.
I also doubt that it will convert legacy users. The phone is a mixture of too expensive, while not capable enough.

The legacy strongholds are mostly in emerging markets and there the trend is going all touch, with larger displays and buying from local/Chinese/Indian manufacturers.
So there obviously won't be a lot of BB10 adoption there.

But yeah, I never said that you personally have to care about the mainstream, if you just like the BlackBerry features.
You do however have to care, if you want BlackBerry to stay in the hardware business, as BlackBerry needs phones that are somehow mass marketable.
Those are 2 completely different concepts.

[slagman5]

Edit: (@Marsup Read my reply to you below this post.)

It's simple, there was a market (no matter how small) of people who wanted this specific device, and they made it for us. As long as they didn't produce 20 million units and knew it would only sell X amount, then it will have accomplished what it set out to do. Should they base their entire handset strategy on us? Of course not, but it's not like the Classic is the only device they plan on building and selling. So if it was up to some people, they should just ignore those of us who wanted it or priced it so they would make less profit. Either way, the other people who did not want this device still would not have bought one. If they can sell a product for a higher profit margin, and the target market is willing to pay it, then that's definitely the smart thing to do. And for me personally, I much rather spend $450 on a phone that works and does what I want it to do than $200 on a phone with better specs I can show off about but lacks all of the things I wanted. Do I want better specs? Of course I do. Does it mean I will dump all of my requirements for a phone due to the principle of it? Of course not...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[slagman5]

You didn't understand what I said then.
It's not about you caring, or me caring or whatever.
It's a matter of staying in the hardware business for BlackBerry.
Catering to an ever shrinking niche, without being able to command a hefty premium over your competitors, usually means that said business will stop catering to the market, as they simply aren't competitive.

So, I personally don't give an eff about people's preferences when they buy phones. It's just that everybody who actually likes the Classic or the Passport, is highly dependent on BlackBerry making phones that sell well.
And all of the reviews I read from non BlackBerry fansites clearly go in that direction.

In no way does that mean that you have to buy what others prefer. Or that you have to start to like what others want you to like.
It's simply a question of BlackBerry staying in the hardware business.
With their current product portfolio and sale numbers, it's pretty clear that the phone division isn't self-sufficient and I doubt (just like the majority of reviewers) that the Classic is the correct device to get to that point.

As I said, if the Classic can get a 0.1% marketshare in 2015, I'd call it a miracle.
This however, is completely independent to your personal preferences. You bought the Classic. You don't need to be convinced to buy it.
If BlackBerry wants to stay in the hardware business however, they don't need BlackBerry diehards. They need growth from other platforms (and yes, I mostly mean enterprise customers. Android and iOS have long overtaken BlackBerry in that sector), but the Classic surely won't achieve that.
I also doubt that it will convert legacy users. The phone is a mixture of too expensive, while not capable enough.

The legacy strongholds are mostly in emerging markets and there the trend is going all touch, with larger displays and buying from local/Chinese/Indian manufacturers.
So there obviously won't be a lot of BB10 adoption there.

But yeah, I never said that you personally have to care about the mainstream, if you just like the BlackBerry features.
You do however have to care, if you want BlackBerry to stay in the hardware business, as BlackBerry needs phones that are somehow mass marketable.
Those are 2 completely different concepts.

Unless this is the only device they are making, whether they stay in the hardware business does not at all hinge on a phone that was targeting a niche market to begin with. Again, as long as they do not over-produce the phone and they sell the amount they planned for, even if that number is low, then it will be a success for them. Will it "save" the company on its own? Most likely not. Was it meant to save the company on its own? Most likely not.

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[Adam Matlock]

I love how every review bags on the processor but it's funny that they never review the Apple processor. The A7 was only a 1.2ghz and the phone had 1gb of ram, however, they couldn't sing enough praises because it's an iphone. Heaven forbid BlackBerry use a 1.5ghz processor in their phone that works really well. BB10, just like iOS, does not need massive specs to run properly. It's not an android. The only argument that could downplay the specs is the fact that BB10 can also run android apps, which if could potentially need bigger and better resources for. But, for the OS and native apps to run, it doesn't need all of that.

Posted via CB10

[slagman5]

I love how every review bags on the processor but it's funny that they never review the Apple processor. The A7 was only a 1.2ghz and the phone had 1gb of ram, however, they couldn't sing enough praises because it's an iphone. Heaven forbid BlackBerry use a 1.5ghz processor in their phone that works really well. BB10, just like iOS, does not need massive specs to run properly. It's not an android. The only argument that could downplay the specs is the fact that BB10 can also run android apps, which if could potentially need bigger and better resources for. But, for the OS and native apps to run, it doesn't need all of that.

Posted via CB10

Well, Apple is kind of known to have a very slim and simple OS, and it runs very well on much lower specs. I think it benchmarks better than other OS's with better specs because of that. So they kind of go by a different standard. That's like reviewing a Linux and a Windows machine. The Linux machine will run better on lower specs than a Windows machine, so it's not really an apples to apples (pun not intended) comparison... I'm not a fan of Apple BTW, they are a bit TOO simplistic in my opinion. I love simple, but not to the point where I cannot customize it to my liking...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[redlightblinking]

You didn't understand what I said then.
It's not about you caring, or me caring or whatever.
It's a matter of staying in the hardware business for BlackBerry.
Catering to an ever shrinking niche, without being able to command a hefty premium over your competitors, usually means that said business will stop catering to the market, as they simply aren't competitive.

Isn't Apple audience "ever shrinking"? They keep losing market share to Android. Sooooooo.......should they stop making iPhones?

Commanding a hefty premium? First your argument is that the premium is TOO HIGH...now you're saying they can't command that premium on a phone that they sold out of. Please pick an argument and stick with it.

And, last I checked, Bentley's are sold to an every shrinking niche, but they didn't stop catering to that market....and yet.....they are still competitive as people choose to buy them over some other luxury car.

So, I personally don't give an eff about people's preferences when they buy phones. It's just that everybody who actually likes the Classic or the Passport, is highly dependent on BlackBerry making phones that sell well.
And all of the reviews I read from non BlackBerry fansites clearly go in that direction..

None of the reviews say anything about the phone requiring BlackBerry phones to "sell well" for people who like the Passport or Classic to continue to enjoy either of them. They could sell JUST ONE OF THEM...and if I had it and enjoyed it, then I don't care if it "sold well".

In no way does that mean that you have to buy what others prefer. Or that you have to start to like what others want you to like.
It's simply a question of BlackBerry staying in the hardware business.
With their current product portfolio and sale numbers, it's pretty clear that the phone division isn't self-sufficient and I doubt (just like the majority of reviewers) that the Classic is the correct device to get to that point.

Many companies have divisions that are not self sufficient. And those are not companies in a re-building mode like BB. The only question about BB staying in the hardware business is whether or not the CEO wants to do that. And he clearly said that he DOES.

Y
As I said, if the Classic can get a 0.1% marketshare in 2015, I'd call it a miracle.

And if you ever grasp the basic concepts of business....I'd call THAT a miracle. So now we've both offered our opinions.

This however, is completely independent to your personal preferences. You bought the Classic. You don't need to be convinced to buy it.
If BlackBerry wants to stay in the hardware business however, they don't need BlackBerry diehards. They need growth from other platforms (and yes, I mostly mean enterprise customers. Android and iOS have long overtaken BlackBerry in that sector), but the Classic surely won't achieve that.
I also doubt that it will convert legacy users. The phone is a mixture of too expensive, while not capable enough.

Why do you think it won't convert legacy users when it's practically identical in look and function to the 9900 but with all the advancements of BB10.
Also,would you mind listing the things that it's not capable of?

The legacy strongholds are mostly in emerging markets and there the trend is going all touch, with larger displays and buying from local/Chinese/Indian manufacturers. So there obviously won't be a lot of BB10 adoption there.

How is it "obvious"?
And you're basing all of this on WHAT data?
In case you haven't noticed...the trend to go all touch with larger displays has occured everywhere, not just in emerging markets.

But yeah, I never said that you personally have to care about the mainstream, if you just like the BlackBerry features.
You do however have to care, if you want BlackBerry to stay in the hardware business, as BlackBerry needs phones that are somehow mass marketable.
Those are 2 completely different concepts.

BlackBerry doesn't need products that are mass marketable to stay in business anymore than Land Rover does. You find your market and you cater to it.

[Adam Matlock]

Well, Apple is kind of known to have a very slim and simple OS, and it runs very well on much lower specs. I think it benchmarks better than other OS's with better specs because of that. So they kind of go by a different standard. That's like reviewing a Linux and a Windows machine. The Linux machine will run better on lower specs than a Windows machine, so it's not really an apples to apples (pun not intended) comparison... I'm not a fan of Apple BTW, they are a bit TOO simplistic in my opinion. I love simple, but not to the point where I cannot customize it to my liking...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

That's exactly my argument. The specs aren't comparable to apple or android because they are all different but they act like a 1.5ghz processor is bad. In a modern android, yeah, it's bad. In a blackberry, it's good.

Posted via CB10

[slagman5]

That's exactly my argument. The specs aren't comparable to apple or android because they are all different but they act like a 1.5ghz processor is bad. In a modern android, yeah, it's bad. In a blackberry, it's good.

Posted via CB10

Yah, but better will still be better, lol. I would have loved for the Classic to have Z30 specs. Still not head of the specs race, but its quad-core GPU would be a benefit for the times you want to play as well as the times you want to work. :-) But I don't mind the Classic the way it is now. If I didn't buy the Classic I would still have the Q10, which has the same specs. So the toolbelt is already an upgrade for me. So I'm happy with the device. Miss this toolbelt so much... *hugs*

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[Adam Matlock]

Yah, but better will still be better, lol. I would have loved for the Classic to have Z30 specs. Still not head of the specs race, but its quad-core GPU would be a benefit for the times you want to play as well as the times you want to work. :-) But I don't mind the Classic the way it is now. If I didn't buy the Classic I would still have the Q10, which has the same specs. So the toolbelt is already an upgrade for me. So I'm happy with the device. Miss this toolbelt so much... *hugs*

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

Haha. I also agree. I would have loved for at least the same specs as the passport. I was really loving the 13mp camera in my passport. But, enterprise doesn't need all of that jazz and if they put passport specs then the price would have been $600, and then nobody would buy it. I think they did well with the classic and it runs great, even better than the Q10 with same specs. 10.3.1 definitely makes a difference.

Posted via CB10

[Alain_A]

Haha. I also agree. I would have loved for at least the same specs as the passport. I was really loving the 13mp camera in my passport. But, enterprise doesn't need all of that jazz and if they put passport specs then the price would have been $600, and then nobody would buy it. I think they did well with the classic and it runs great, even better than the Q10 with same specs. 10.3.1 definitely makes a difference.

Posted via CB10

not true, I would have buy it

[Adam Matlock]

not true, I would have buy it

Really? I don't think I could bring myself to pay that much. I would have to wait for the price drop. The $449 was a no brainer

Posted via CB10

[Alain_A]

Really? I don't think I could bring myself to pay that much. I would have to wait for the price drop. The $449 was a no brainer

Posted via CB10

the passport was that much for the specs. So the Classic with those specs would have been just as much

[Alain_A]

what the difference with high specs Note 4...still over $700.00

[Adam Matlock]

what the difference with high specs Note 4...still over $700.00

True. The Passport was $599, but it was a gigantic and innovative phone that I couldn't resist. I know I already paid that much for other blackberries too, I just can't see myself paying more than $600 for a phone anymore. Samsung and Apple are crazy. $8-900 for an iphone 6 with 64 or 128gb of memory, no thank you. Lately I either wait for the price to drop or buy used.

Posted via CB10

[Alain_A]

True. The Passport was $599, but it was a gigantic and innovative phone that I couldn't resist. I know I already paid that much for other blackberries too, I just can't see myself paying more than $600 for a phone anymore. Samsung and Apple are crazy. $8-900 for an iphone 6 with 64 or 128gb of memory, no thank you. Lately I either wait for the price to drop or buy used.

Posted via CB10

The way you have to think about it is, If I pay a phone $700.00 + with high end specs in that phone I love,,How long will it last to me before I change?

To me I would like a phone that I could keep 4 to 5 years if not longer

[Adam Matlock]

The way you have to think about it is, If I pay a phone $700.00 + with high end specs in that phone I love,,How long will it last to me before I change?

To me I would like a phone that I could keep 4 to 5 years if not longer

That argument is pretty much non-existent in my brain. I change phones 2-3x a year. Haha

Posted via CB10

[Alain_A]

That argument is pretty much non-existent in my brain. I change phones 2-3x a year. Haha

Posted via CB10

that is when it become expensive the way you do ( I think) 3 phones a years..What price each phone?. also you need to think how well will it work for me. And what is important?

sure one can buy a bunch of cheap phone but is it for work or fun..or one could buy a throw away phone..

[Adam Matlock]

that is when it become expensive the way you do ( I think) 3 phones a years..What price each phone?. also you need to think how well will it work for me. And what is important?

sure one can buy a bunch of cheap phone but is it for work or fun..or one could buy a throw away phone..

Generally it's not that expensive because I trade or sell my old phones. I traded in my Q10 and Z30 and paid fully for my passport. I actually paid full price for the Classic, but it was not as expensive.

Posted via CB10

[LuvULongTime]

I truly believe that there is still 5% of the global market that wants a qwerty, but they won't come back to a BlackBerry PKB for a number of reasons:

1. They believe the company is going out of business
2. They believe all new phones are based off legacy BBOS and have no clue about BB10
3. They believe BlackBerry has no apps

If BlackBerry was serious about winning over former PKB lovers that would consider coming back then they really needed to do more to entice them:

1. Offer much better specs. Specifically Passport specs. I also would have included the touch sensitive keyboard from the passport but made it even better. I would have virtually divided the PKB into 5 columns, with each representing a predictive word along the top that the user could swipe up to select. I was playing around with the idea on my Bold, and I don't think it is too cramped. Imagine being able to offer users the best of both the BB VKB and PKB. Talk about productivity. And the better RAM and processor would have helped with running Android apps. The Verge compared app startup times against an Android, and the Classic was embarrassingly slow opening the app tested.

2. Offer a much better price. $499 for this phone is criminal.

3. I would have made the phone a tad wider, or a tad taller, if only to allow for better media consumption (ie not a perfect square screen which would mean smaller black bars when watching video). I know folks will argue this is not a media machine and I get that. But in today's world most folks don't want to carry two phones. If someone really wants a PKB but just can't get over the square screen, then you give them a more compelling screen to go along with that PKB they really want.

4. Call the phone the Bold 10 and market the heck out of it! This is the natural successor to the Bold 9900 and true BB10 flagship. Give it all the bells and whistles. Give PKB lovers a reason to switch back. Let them know that they can have it all!

[IggieX]

I truly believe that there is still 5% of the global market that wants a qwerty, but they won't come back to a BlackBerry PKB for a number of reasons:

1. They believe the company is going out of business
2. They believe all new phones are based off legacy BBOS and have no clue about BB10
3. They believe BlackBerry has no apps

When I went to Verizon Wireless about 3 days ago looking to see if they carried Passport's, the Representative basically said the 3 things you mentioned. Then she tried to tell me getting an iphone 6 would be better..

[Alain_A]

When I went to Verizon Wireless about 3 days ago looking to see if they carried Passport's, the Representative basically said the 3 things you mentioned. Then she tried to tell me getting an iphone 6 would be better..

I hope you did educate her

[dna47]

Well, if there is only a small amount of us who want that, and are willing to pay for it, then wouldn't getting a wider profit margin be better? No matter how cheap you make it, if someone doesn't want a pkb phone, they will not buy it. So basically the number of sales would remain roughly the same, but now with a smaller profit margin, so which is better?

Or are you suggesting that by making it cheaper that all of a sudden the people who are obsessed about 6" screens and/or iOS would have bought the Classic?

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

No they won't, but you know why android has a HUGE market share? Because there's SOOOO many cheap android phones.

If blackberry could make a REAL cheap BB10 phone, then MAYBE they could have some new users that are willing to give BB10 a chance buy they phone which in return would make devs spend $ developing apps for this platform.

So if they could've found a way to sell the classic at MINIMUM profit then maybe, just maybe more people would've bought it. Because having it sold out means jack, it's sold out because they haven't produce enough of it.

The passport was also sold out, and they sold 200k (supposedly) the first day. 200k is a freaking joke.

And don't tell me the classic outsold the passport, because even if they managed to sell 500k, that's still a joke.

BBRY wants to focus on enterprise, that's fine, but more and more entreprise users are using Ios/android because these platform do have a lots of business friendly apps which BB10 lacks.

I do believe blackberry can and will survive as a software company, but if they think they'll survive by leveraging the entreprise side, then they better get their crap together and find a way to at least get business devs to make apps for BB10!

Anyway, that's just my 2cents.

Posted via CB10