04-27-14 04:46 AM
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  1. slagman5's Avatar
    Tell me this then...have we not heard this same type of reasoning about Thorsten, and about Jim and Mike? I recall this same type of "they know what they are doing" argument used so many times yet time and time again (given enough time) it became apparent they had no clue what they were doing.


    BlackBerry without the consumer will fail. The world where they could rely on the business market is gone and never coming back, but this thread is not about that, is it? It's about the perception that BlackBerry is creating by effectively flip-flopping on its own platform.

    On a more personal note, can you please proof read your posts? You managed to write two fragments and put a comma in the middle of the second sentence where it makes no sense at all. Yes, grammar police...it hurts my eyes.



    Posted via CB10
    Say what you want about TH, Mike, Jim, John Chen, anything. I know ONE thing for a fact, something that nobody can dispute, something I'm willing to bet my money on. All of them, despite any failures they might have had, are more qualified to make those decisions than you are. If you think you know better than these people who were or are the CEO of the company, you are suffering from delusions of grandeur, no ifs, ands, or buts...
    acovey and Upgrayedd111 like this.
    03-16-14 11:49 PM
  2. dejanh's Avatar
    Say what you want about TH, Mike, Jim, John Chen, anything. I know ONE thing for a fact, something that nobody can dispute, something I'm willing to bet my money on. All of them, despite any failures they might have had, are more qualified to make those decisions than you are. If you think you know better than these people who were or are the CEO of the company, you are suffering from delusions of grandeur, no ifs, ands, or buts...
    Period. Hahahahaha

    You know what they say...once you resort to ad-hominem attacks you've already lost the argument. That or we can keep going...I'm rubber you're glue, everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you

    After all, that holds about as much water and relevance to the entire argument as your statement.

    John Chen actually has a proven track record of turning around a floundering company. Ever hear of Sybase?



    Posted with my ?Q10 running 10.2.1.1925.
    BlackBerry is nothing like Sybase. Not the same business, not the same market, not the same challenges, in fact nothing about them is similar. I'm not knocking John Chen. I think that he may (finally) be the man for the job but that does not change the fact that we have heard this all before.

    Nevertheless, this is again off topic. OP is correct in saying that this is a bad move for BlackBerry and it will negatively affect the BlackBerry brand and the company's credibility. I just hope that they do not try to stick to the same old recipe. If you want to bring the function keys and the track pad back, I really hope that they innovate and put out something never seen before. Assuming they do this I may just be the first in line for the new toy

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by dejanh; 03-17-14 at 01:38 AM.
    03-17-14 01:21 AM
  3. guygardner73's Avatar
    Rigidly on topic, I have to disagree with the thread title. Toolbelts are not dangerous. There is no danger in a tool belt. You will suffer no harm whatsoever.

    Z10STL100-2/10.2.1.2141 O2 UK
    dejanh, DYLANHABKIRK and acovey like this.
    03-17-14 04:10 AM
  4. gabbleratchet's Avatar
    What "all the people"? Give me one source that supports what you said. Just one.

    What you stated there is a rumor that somehow became coddled into a false reality.
    This is how I feel about the idea that flip-flopping on bb10's UI is a serious problem for blackberry's image and business. Is there market data that can prove that this fear is justified?

    I think BlackBerry should make the best, fastest, most efficient, most capable phone they can, and damn the optics. You think they should stay the course and that optics are more important than utility.

    I doubt that either of us has the hard data to justify our opinions.

    Posted via CB10
    acovey and RyanGermann like this.
    03-17-14 09:49 AM
  5. grimreaper420's Avatar
    Who cares? Q20 is gonna rock. Case closed.

    Posted via CB10 Q10SQN100-5/10.2.1.2141
    Bbnivende, acovey and heraiz like this.
    03-17-14 10:27 AM
  6. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Period. Hahahahaha

    You know what they say...once you resort to ad-hominem attacks you've already lost the argument. That or we can keep going...I'm rubber you're glue, everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you

    After all, that holds about as much water and relevance to the entire argument as your statement.


    BlackBerry is nothing like Sybase. Not the same business, not the same market, not the same challenges, in fact nothing about them is similar. I'm not knocking John Chen. I think that he may (finally) be the man for the job but that does not change the fact that we have heard this all before.

    Nevertheless, this is again off topic. OP is correct in saying that this is a bad move for BlackBerry and it will negatively affect the BlackBerry brand and the company's credibility. I just hope that they do not try to stick to the same old recipe. If you want to bring the function keys and the track pad back, I really hope that they innovate and put out something never seen before. Assuming they do this I may just be the first in line for the new toy

    Posted via CB10
    So you talk about brand and credibility and yet you want to buy a BlackBerry toy.
    03-17-14 11:18 AM
  7. deadcowboy's Avatar
    Who cares? Q20 is gonna rock. Case closed.

    Posted via CB10 Q10SQN100-5/10.2.1.2141
    I think we can end the thread right now.

    Posted via CB10
    acovey likes this.
    03-17-14 11:38 AM
  8. xBURK's Avatar
    Yep, the decision has already been made. Q20 is coming no matter what. Don't like it, suck it. Move on and buy another device.


    Powered by BlackBerry
    acovey and heraiz like this.
    03-17-14 12:45 PM
  9. Kashan Osama's Avatar
    BlackBerry is not in a financial position to be catering to tiny markets. As-is they have too many devices. They should have released only the Z10 (with better specs, like the Z30), the Q10, and the Z3. All else was and will be a colossal waste of money. Q5 was a failure, Z30 is in principle a failure, even though I own one as it was too late to the market and really should have been the Z10, and the Q20 will just continue this trend. Diversification in product portfolio is very expensive and not something BlackBerry can support.

    At launch they should have had the Z3 at sub $200 prices off contract as the very first phone. They should have had the Q10 positioned as a middle tier device at around $400 off contract, and the Z10 with upgraded specs for around $550 off contract. That would have significantly boosted the chance of BlackBerry 10 taking off.


    I said a source, you know, like one with actual stats or some concrete data. Not a user's personal experience.

    You guys really make me laugh.

    Posted via CB10
    BINGO spot on man really spot on..that 4 tier strategy proves to be really expensive and sorta confused like "trying to make everyone happy" xD...They have must set a definite baseline standard with An even better specd z10 (as you said z30 should be the z10,maybe with 4.3 screen even and 1080p) and A higher midrange Q10 phone so that more people had migrated towards the new experience...this pricing is one part of the story,the other part is the steep learning Curve aswell,I can safely assume it did affect the migration to some extent..And the next part is a "Polished" and "bug-free" "AT LAUNCH" release of BB10,do less,but do excellently,just like Apple...I know most of you would bash me,but I can tell you i have used z10 dev preview and the os was not as polished as It have to be (and many reviewers mentioned it),OK it is their first version,Whatever The f*** but BBRY must have realised that they have absolutely nothing to lose,so they should have looked upon it...the next part is the grave app gap,NO I DON'T WANT ANDROID APPS,AND WE BBRIan won't want that anyway...I want native apps that can run headless,and quality apps...Had they released a premium suit of productivity apps with z10,the scenario would have been different....the other part in my opinion is BB cloud service +BES 10,BB cloud which they are soon gonna launch in 2014...had it launched both in 2013 Mid year,would have made wonders IMHO...




    IMHO the conclusion is a "co-herent" and polished experience surely saves the blackberry base + enterprise base and then they could have build on it...BBRY at launch doesn't have anything for enterprise iOS users to switch from their OS IMHO...


    After that BBRY have succeeded in saving and even increasing its BB fanbase + enterprise base,It would have released z3 just around this time with low price,and it would be a wonderful regain of bbry
    03-17-14 03:55 PM
  10. guygardner73's Avatar
    Who cares? Q20 is gonna rock. Case closed.

    Posted via CB10 Q10SQN100-5/10.2.1.2141
    Furque YeAh!!!

    Z10STL100-2/10.2.1.2141 O2 UK
    xBURK likes this.
    03-17-14 04:04 PM
  11. meztek's Avatar
    Period. Hahahahaha

    You know what they say...once you resort to ad-hominem attacks you've already lost the argument. That or we can keep going...I'm rubber you're glue, everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you

    After all, that holds about as much water and relevance to the entire argument as your statement.
    Posted via CB10
    John Chen is CEO of BlackBerry and neither of us are. Slagman is not attacking you, rather he is pointing out that the CEO of BlackBerry has qualifications we do not when it comes to releasing products. Also, I have read some of your other posts. You seem to make personal attacks as well. Let us try to be friendly here rather than immediately assume our own positions are correct with no exceptions.

    I'd like to believe BlackBerry does not risk hurting the company's image by releasing a phone with some additional buttons on it. After all, Apple could put a giant red mushroom button on the back of an iPhone, call it "revolutionary", and all the little iSheep would line up at the door to buy one. So, can the Q20 change some people's view of BlackBerry? Undeniably so. But as I and others are trying to say, none of us here at CrackBerry have the qualifications to determine just how much of an impact the phone will have.
    acovey likes this.
    03-17-14 08:38 PM
  12. slagman5's Avatar
    John Chen is CEO of BlackBerry and neither of us are. Slagman is not attacking you, rather he is pointing out that the CEO of BlackBerry has qualifications we do not when it comes to releasing products. Also, I have read some of your other posts. You seem to make personal attacks as well. Let us try to be friendly here rather than immediately assume our own positions are correct with no exceptions.

    I'd like to believe BlackBerry does not risk hurting the company's image by releasing a phone with some additional buttons on it. After all, Apple could put a giant red mushroom button on the back of an iPhone, call it "revolutionary", and all the little iSheep would line up at the door to buy one. So, can the Q20 change some people's view of BlackBerry? Undeniably so. But as I and others are trying to say, none of us here at CrackBerry have the qualifications to determine just how much of an impact the phone will have.
    Yah, I've pretty much stopped wasting my time with him. I can tell he probably took a debate class in middle school so now he thinks he's an expert in the field. I say that because I actually have done a lot of that and he's using the terms... but not correctly... lol. Anyway, no matter what you say, it wouldn't make a difference. In his mind, he's right and anyone with a different opinion is wrong or has an argument that is guilty of some kind of logical fallacy...

    So here's my advice, whatever he says, just say "Whatever you say, you're right." And end your time wasting right there. Sometimes a little bit of ego stroking is all you need to get someone to give it a rest.
    DYLANHABKIRK likes this.
    03-17-14 09:39 PM
  13. waterfrontmgmt's Avatar
    There is no such thing as a "correct" opinion. It is just that. I have faith this will be a killer phone.
    Period. Hahahahaha

    You know what they say...once you resort to ad-hominem attacks you've already lost the argument. That or we can keep going...I'm rubber you're glue, everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you

    After all, that holds about as much water and relevance to the entire argument as your statement.


    BlackBerry is nothing like Sybase. Not the same business, not the same market, not the same challenges, in fact nothing about them is similar. I'm not knocking John Chen. I think that he may (finally) be the man for the job but that does not change the fact that we have heard this all before.

    Nevertheless, this is again off topic. OP is correct in saying that this is a bad move for BlackBerry and it will negatively affect the BlackBerry brand and the company's credibility. I just hope that they do not try to stick to the same old recipe. If you want to bring the function keys and the track pad back, I really hope that they innovate and put out something never seen before. Assuming they do this I may just be the first in line for the new toy

    Posted via CB10
    03-17-14 10:17 PM
  14. xBURK's Avatar
    So.......is the tool belt a good idea or not? lol

    Powered by BlackBerry
    03-17-14 11:15 PM
  15. deadcowboy's Avatar
    So.......is the tool belt a good idea or not? lol

    Powered by BlackBerry
    Nobody will know until the phone is released and we start seeing numbers.

    What I can say is that if it's a Q10 with a toolbelt, then it will be the best phone ever made (and I'll be happy to have it, regardless of commercial success).

    Posted via CB10
    DYLANHABKIRK and Upgrayedd111 like this.
    03-17-14 11:40 PM
  16. slagman5's Avatar
    +1

    Well, here's hoping the internal tech specs are far better than the Q10 though. If I'm going to upgrade it better be an upgrade, lol. :-P

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    03-17-14 11:52 PM
  17. acovey's Avatar
    So once all those stupid BBOS hillbillies have done their learnin on a phone with a belt and suspenders by golly they will be just swiping every which way.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using CB Forums mobile app
    I may be a stupid BBOS hilbillie BUT I use a Blackberry NOT a Nexus 7 what ever that is. I have a 9810 and use BOTH the keyboard and the screen and finally Blackberry is making a phone I am interested in. I would have kept my 9810 until the keys fell off and the belt stopped working. You sir should wash your mouth out with soap.
    DYLANHABKIRK and Upgrayedd111 like this.
    03-18-14 01:31 AM
  18. RyanGermann's Avatar
    The fact that the brand is tarnished cannot be used as a justification for complacency and uncertainty. It absolutely matters what message they are sending and going back to the function keys and track pad is sending a message that the company is confused and desperate, and that the usage paradigm brought forward by BlackBerry 10 failed.
    If you're concerned about the risk of BlackBerry sending such a message, allow me to clear the air:

    "BLACKBERRY IS CONFUSED AND DESPERATE!"

    A lot of people are disagreeing fundamentally with the premise that a) BlackBerry's reputation is subject to "further" harm. Imagine someone who's on the battlefield stabbed in the liver and had his left leg cut off and has a broken right arm. At this point, if they ALSO get called names by the enemy, I think that's the least of their problems.

    So, any harm to BlackBerry's reputation is inconsequential at this point. Completely, totally, inconsequential.

    Also, while you think this will harm their reputation with, I don't know, BGR or C|Net "journalists" (and who bluddy cares, not me) I believe it will ENHANCE their reputation with a far more important constituency: humans with money to buy a new device who are still using BBOS devices that haven't migrated to BB10 because BB10 is too unlike BBOS for their taste or needs: there are 10s of millions of these humans with money, and the Belt may make these humans with money spend their money on BB10 devices, so it's actually very very GOOD for BlackBerry's reputation for John Chen to have a different attitude than Thor's team about the Belt.

    You aren't going to convince people who believe as I do that the Belt is a GOOD idea that there is risk of "significant" harm to BlackBerry's reputation no matter how many ways you try to explain it.

    They executed a strategy between 2011 and 2013 that failed and it's failure is confusing (or they wouldn't have executed it... they hoped it would succeed and if they had another strategy that they were more certain would succeed they would have executed that one.) so BlackBerry is desperate (everyone already knows that) and BlackBerry management prior to John Chen WAS confused by BB10's failure (but you'd be surprised how many topics on CrackBerry.com nailed why BlackBerry 10 devices failed... I'm not going to repeat it all here, but lots of people have pretty good insights as to why the acceptance of BB10 in the market was "confusing" to previous BB management).

    So, yes, BlackBerry IS desperate and WAS confused, and everyone knows it. Now John Chen is on board and is still desperate and isn't confused (although I wager he WAS confused by the strategy executed by his predecessors).
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 03-18-14 at 10:32 AM.
    acovey likes this.
    03-18-14 10:17 AM
  19. slagman5's Avatar
    I'm sure Android users and iphone users are out there going "man, I wonder which company has a clear message, I'm going with that company..."

    The fact is, BB has a pool of people who do not want to move to BB10 from BBOS. And no, they are not making any money off people sitting on old legacy devices. They need to try to appeal to every one they can. They have a better chance at getting legacy users to switch than iphone and android fanboys to all of a sudden decide they care more about productivity than be on the bandwagon of the popular kids...

    They will still have the devices that will try to convert them, but trust me, ask 100 android and iphone users. You'd be hard pressed to find more than one of them that would say anything close to them being willing to switch to BB10 if they feel they have a "clear message." You guys are talking more like investors than consumers...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    acovey likes this.
    03-18-14 03:02 PM
  20. ShamrockRagEll's Avatar
    I'm sure Android users and iphone users are out there going "man, I wonder which company has a clear message, I'm going with that company..."
    That's actually how every human being works. You too. Why would you go with a brand that doesn't clearly tell you what they are doing?

    The reason why you get what blackberry is offering is that you actively look for it (like being on this forum.)
    BlackBerry has shown that they are really bad in showing that to people from the outside of their circle (people that are not actively looking into BlackBerrys offerings.)

    And that's exactly why I have my opinion about the perception of the belt (not the actual pros to productivity, just the statement they are making.)

    BlackBerry can't settle on just legacy device users. They can't afford to ignore people that are not yet blackberry customers. No company on this earth can do this.

    Posted via CB10
    03-18-14 05:07 PM
  21. slagman5's Avatar
    That's actually how every human being works. You too. Why would you go with a brand that doesn't clearly tell you what they are doing?

    The reason why you get what blackberry is offering is that you actively look for it (like being on this forum.)
    BlackBerry has shown that they are really bad in showing that to people from the outside of their circle (people that are not actively looking into BlackBerrys offerings.)

    And that's exactly why I have my opinion about the perception of the belt (not the actual pros to productivity, just the statement they are making.)

    BlackBerry can't settle on just legacy device users. They can't afford to ignore people that are not yet blackberry customers. No company on this earth can do this.

    Posted via CB10
    If you say so. I bought the Q10 because based on its specs, physical keyboard, and the features of the OS, it was the best phone for my needs. I guess I don't belong to "every human."

    And I guess neither are my friends because they bought what phone they have for reasons like it being "popular" and "cool" or because they like the ecosystem. Most of them couldn't even tell you what country the company who makes their phone is from much less what their "direction" or "message" is...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    03-18-14 05:21 PM
  22. RyanGermann's Avatar
    That's actually how every human being works. You too. Why would you go with a brand that doesn't clearly tell you what they are doing?
    That is such a over generalisation it is simply incorrect. Lots of people make their final purchase decision on the colour or the advice of the salesperson and pay no attention to specs or even know who the manufacturer is.

    BlackBerry can't settle on just legacy device users. They can't afford to ignore people that are not yet blackberry customers. No company on this earth can do this.
    those statements are untrue now and may be true in a year or so but may not ever be true. Rolls Royce isn't ever going to make a sub compact but if anyone at RR in the 40s or 50s ever considered adopting "space age" materials like plastics and vinyl, they were right to go back to "old fashioned" materials like wood and leather.

    The Belt is vintage and classic.... not old and busted.

    Posted via CB10
    acovey likes this.
    03-18-14 09:46 PM
  23. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I may be a stupid BBOS hilbillie BUT I use a Blackberry NOT a Nexus 7 what ever that is. I have a 9810 and use BOTH the keyboard and the screen and finally Blackberry is making a phone I am interested in. I would have kept my 9810 until the keys fell off and the belt stopped working. You sir should wash your mouth out with soap.
    It was my failed attempt to apply sarcasm aimed at those uppity Z owners.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using CB Forums mobile app
    03-18-14 11:27 PM
  24. Upgrayedd111's Avatar
    Not sure if this has been brought up, but did Apple catch a bunch of flak for not having a clear message or sense of direction when continuing to offer the iPod Classic (complete with the old school navigation circle) along with their touch lineup? Why would a "BlackBerry Classic" be such a public image disaster? I think if they market it the correct way and continue to offer buttonless phones for the swipe-happy, "latest and greatest" tech types among us, it won't look like a big deal.

    And on top of all that, I agree that BlackBerry is probably already perceived by the public as lacking a clear direction and that this phone will have little impact on that either way.
    03-19-14 01:44 AM
  25. ShamrockRagEll's Avatar
    How can already having a bad image be justification for not giving a dann about it anymore?

    There was a time when no one liked apple. If they had gone like "no one likes is, but **** it, lets just go on like that." there wouldn't be an iPhone you guys could hate on.

    You can tell it to yourselves the whole day, but everyone is affected by a strong message a brand sends. You are what you buy. That's why a lot of people here proudly say they own a blackberry because they need no toy but a tool.

    Let me tell you something crazy: there are CEOs out there that run companies and they use android and iOS devices. That blackberry is the only phone you can properly work with is a marketing that's been planted in your heads from legacy times.

    Unfortunately blackberry right now appeals mostly to legacy device users and just few others. They need to step it up, as they can't just rely on this circle of people. What if one die hard fan abandoned the ship and no one would replace him?
    It's like a rain forest where you cut down one tree after another and over time there is no forest anymore. What then?
    Start planting some trees.

    Posted via CB10
    dejanh likes this.
    03-19-14 02:20 AM
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