[Pete The Penguin]

Or speakers and microphones. It should have a 3D scanner that reads your lips and transcribes it to the other person and you hear the message with an implant in your ear that stimulates your ear drums instead of this ancient technology of a speaker... lol. ;-)

We should all get a babelfish, like in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy...

[Pete The Penguin]

Tool Belt = Training Wheels for using BB10.

Tool Belt = Real BlackBerry.

[Pete The Penguin]

I heard people saying it's easier. There are more than one opinion about this topic. As for the analogy: I was talking about complicity.

Posted via CB10

People still ride horses, they (horses) didn't die out with the advent of the motorcar.

Don't worry, you phone won't spontaneously combust when BBOS users switch to the Q20.

[Pete The Penguin]

To all those who don't "get" the toolbelt on a BlackBerry running BB10, read this:

http://crackberry.com/why-blackberry...-trackpad-back

Personally, I think the Q20 will be very close to the TK Victory.

http://m.crackberry.com/introducing-...erry-10-design

[dejanh]

^ Multi-quotes are your friend.

Posted via CB10

[ShamrockRagEll]

@dejanh: Thank you! Finally someone who understands what I'm saying.

Back to topic: you are right, I don't have to buy a Q20, but you are wrong when you say "it's just one blackberry model, no one will think anything." Perception is important.

Here's a headline from a German newspaper I read some days ago "Smartphone-Dinosaur going back to old fashioned model"

Friends that read the headline came up to me and asked "doesn't sound too innovative, eh?" for them the headline said "blackberry 10 failed"

And that's what I'm talking about. What is best for productivity and what is good for BlackBerrys image is a completely different story.
I used to own a 9900 and I agree that selecting text is really easy with the track pad. But then I think blackberry has to come up with a new kind of track pad. That way the headline could be "iconic track pad reinvented" But maybe that's exactly what they are doing.
Let's just wait and see.

Posted via CB10

[slagman5]

Yah, because BB is really perceived to be the cutting edge of technology right now. Too bad this phone will NOW undermine all of that. They should just keep undermining their core users and ignore all of the people still buying and using legacy devices to keep up the great work of drawing in people by the thousands from Apple and Android like they are currently doing... Shucks.

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[RyanGermann]

Perception is important.

Here's a headline from a German newspaper I read some days ago "Smartphone-Dinosaur going back to old fashioned model"

Friends that read the headline came up to me and asked "doesn't sound too innovative, eh?" for them the headline said "blackberry 10 failed"

And that's what I'm talking about. What is best for productivity and what is good for BlackBerrys image is a completely different story.

You're worried BlackBerry's corporate image could be damaged by a perception of "retreat to safety"?

As far as Blackberry's corporate image being positive is concerned, not only has that ship sailed but they ran out of lobster on the first day, the Norwalk virus is running rampant, the band's instruments were held in customs and the power went out... the announcement of the Belt is like ALSO having a couple gift shops being slightly low on spearmint gum.

There is very little possible further harm to BlackBerry's reputation from headlines such as those.

Posted via CB10

[dejanh]

Yah, because BB is really perceived to be the cutting edge of technology right now. Too bad this phone will NOW undermine all of that. They should just keep undermining their core users and ignore all of the people still buying and using legacy devices to keep up the great work of drawing in people by the thousands from Apple and Android like they are currently doing... Shucks.

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

The fact that the brand is tarnished cannot be used as a justification for complacency and uncertainty. It absolutely matters what message they are sending and going back to the function keys and track pad is sending a message that the company is confused and desperate, and that the usage paradigm brought forward by BlackBerry 10 failed.

The few (and yes, it will be very, very few) legacy users that they will bring on board with the Q20 will, even for BlackBerry standards, be a drop in a pool. The reason why legacy is still outselling BlackBerry 10 is not because BlackBerry 10 is "too difficult to learn". It's because there is still no true low cost BlackBerry 10 device out there and because most don't even know BlackBerry 10 exists (no adequate marketing). Likewise, business customers have not migrated to the BlackBerry 10 platform primarily because of uncertainty surrounding the company and secondarily because of the many shortcomings of BES10.

In all, I really don't understand why it is so difficult for you and many others to really see this for what it is. This is a move of desperation, not a Hail Mary play.

Oh and, here is another news flash for you too. Those users that you want to migrate from iOS and Android, maybe they would have migrated had the company actually made any effort to reel them in. As far as it stands today BlackBerry continues to live by the mantra that "if you build it they will come". This hasn't worked even for Apple. Why would it work for BlackBerry? Everyone, including BlackBerry itself is always too busy making excuses instead of actually doing something to change. Start to market the heck out of BlackBerry 10, and stay the course. Advertise the fact that you effectively have a dual-OS phone, the best of both worlds. You have the security and productivity delivered by BlackBerry 10 and the play delivered by Android on BlackBerry 10. How many others can claim the same thing, yet this (as just one example) is never communicated to the potential customers.

Posted via CB10

[Ray III]

The few (and yes, it will be very, very few) legacy users that they will bring on board with the Q20 will, even for BlackBerry standards, be a drop in a pool. The reason why legacy is still outselling BlackBerry 10 is not because BlackBerry 10 is "too difficult to learn". It's because there is still no true low cost BlackBerry 10 device out there and because most don't even know BlackBerry 10 exists (no adequate marketing).

You mean like all the people that bought a BB10 phone and then went back to a 9900 or ditched BB for another platform?

[guygardner73]

OMG, I swear, if I read another one of these making these same claims...

It won't "scare away" potential new customers because it's not REPLACING any of the other formats!!!!! If you think a normal qwerty or an all-touch device will generate more interest from outsiders, THEY WILL STILL BE MADE AND RELEASED!! This is in ADDITION to these existing styles of phone, not IN PLACE of...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

Yeah OP you just got well and truly slagged by the man!

Z10STL100-2/10.2.1.2141 O2 UK

[slagman5]

The fact that the brand is tarnished cannot be used as a justification for complacency and uncertainty. It absolutely matters what message they are sending and going back to the function keys and track pad is sending a message that the company is confused and desperate, and that the usage paradigm brought forward by BlackBerry 10 failed.

The few (and yes, it will be very, very few) legacy users that they will bring on board with the Q20 will, even for BlackBerry standards, be a drop in a pool. The reason why legacy is still outselling BlackBerry 10 is not because BlackBerry 10 is "too difficult to learn". It's because there is still no true low cost BlackBerry 10 device out there and because most don't even know BlackBerry 10 exists (no adequate marketing). Likewise, business customers have not migrated to the BlackBerry 10 platform primarily because of uncertainty surrounding the company and secondarily because of the many shortcomings of BES10.

In all, I really don't understand why it is so difficult for you and many others to really see this for what it is. This is a move of desperation, not a Hail Mary play.

Oh and, here is another news flash for you too. Those users that you want to migrate from iOS and Android, maybe they would have migrated had the company actually made any effort to reel them in. As far as it stands today BlackBerry continues to live by the mantra that "if you build it they will come". This hasn't worked even for Apple. Why would it work for BlackBerry? Everyone, including BlackBerry itself is always too busy making excuses instead of actually doing something to change. Start to market the heck out of BlackBerry 10, and stay the course. Advertise the fact that you effectively have a dual-OS phone, the best of both worlds. You have the security and productivity delivered by BlackBerry 10 and the play delivered by Android on BlackBerry 10. How many others can claim the same thing, yet this (as just one example) is never communicated to the potential customers.

Posted via CB10

The few people they might get from the legacy user pool is probably more than the even fewer we are drawing away from iphone and Android by trying to release something that's the same as the million and 1 different devices they offer...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[Atmarix]

Another thread... I'm not even reading it, reading the title was enough

From my White Z30

[dejanh]

You mean like all the people that bought a BB10 phone and then went back to a 9900 or ditched BB for another platform?

What "all the people"? Give me one source that supports what you said. Just one.

What you stated there is a rumor that somehow became coddled into a false reality.

The few people they might get from the legacy user pool is probably more than the even fewer we are drawing away from iphone and Android by trying to release something that's the same as the million and 1 different devices they offer...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

You are thinking about this the wrong way. A BlackBerry user is a BlackBerry user. They are not adding any new subscribers through this. They will only, possibly, maybe, save a few existing subs. That is not enough to make any impact to their bottom line and is not a viable long term strategy. They are desperately in need of growth, new subs.

Posted via CB10

[waterfrontmgmt]

How many people do you think work in media and are still on legacy devices? If you think it's a 100K...you are way off.

Very well put. Perception is everything. Q20 just makes the gesture based OS look like a failure. The public will not perceive it as "just helping out legacy users". They will perceive it as an admission that the UI paradigm set forward by BlackBerry 10 failed.


Haha, you made a funny.

High end business executives are a niche? How many devices are they planning to sell? 100,000?

Posted via CB10

[meztek]

What "all the people"? Give me one source that supports what you said. Just one.

What you stated there is a rumor that somehow became coddled into a false reality.

I bought a Z10. Not my style. I bought a Q10. Also not my style. I LIKE the toolbelt. I cannot make any generalizations, but then again neither can you.

The Z10 and Q10 did not ruin the image of BlackBerry for me, so the announcement of the Q20 should not ruin the image of BlackBerry for others. I am fortunate that the company which made my phone is making a new phone that I will also like. I'd rather this over Samsung which makes twenty different variations on the same model which differ primarily in screen size.

[Ray III]

What "all the people"? Give me one source that supports what you said. Just one.

http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...9900-a-912100/

Just one.

[dejanh]

I bought a Z10. Not my style. I bought a Q10. Also not my style. I LIKE the toolbelt. I cannot make any generalizations, but then again neither can you.

The Z10 and Q10 did not ruin the image of BlackBerry for me, so the announcement of the Q20 should not ruin the image of BlackBerry for others. I am fortunate that the company which made my phone is making a new phone that I will also like. I'd rather this over Samsung which makes twenty different variations on the same model which differ primarily in screen size.

BlackBerry is not in a financial position to be catering to tiny markets. As-is they have too many devices. They should have released only the Z10 (with better specs, like the Z30), the Q10, and the Z3. All else was and will be a colossal waste of money. Q5 was a failure, Z30 is in principle a failure, even though I own one as it was too late to the market and really should have been the Z10, and the Q20 will just continue this trend. Diversification in product portfolio is very expensive and not something BlackBerry can support.

At launch they should have had the Z3 at sub $200 prices off contract as the very first phone. They should have had the Q10 positioned as a middle tier device at around $400 off contract, and the Z10 with upgraded specs for around $550 off contract. That would have significantly boosted the chance of BlackBerry 10 taking off.

http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...9900-a-912100/

Just one.

I said a source, you know, like one with actual stats or some concrete data. Not a user's personal experience.

You guys really make me laugh.

Posted via CB10

[Ray III]

I said a source, you know, like one with actual stats or some concrete data. Not a user's personal experience.

You don't think a user's personal experience qualifies as "concrete data" of a user's personal experience? Do you want it notarized or something?

You asked for one example and I gave it. Go in the corner and cry if you don't like it.

[slagman5]

You don't think a user's personal experience qualifies as "concrete data" of a user's personal experience? Do you want it notarized or something?

You asked for one example and I gave it. Go in the corner and cry if you don't like it.

Didn't you know? It has to be financed by some big firm that has an agenda to prove with its findings for it to be official.

[JAS0NB0URNE]

BlackBerry is not in a financial position to be catering to tiny markets.

I said a source, you know, like one with actual stats or some concrete data. Not a user's personal experience.

You guys really make me laugh.

Posted via CB10

John Chen believes they are in financial position to make these phones; I think he probably has a much better idea than anyone in these forums.

If BlackBerry does have internal data about how many users went back to Legacy devices or other platforms due to current BB10 phones having no trackpad or function keys, which I doubt, there is no way they would release such data.



Posted with my ?Q10 running 10.2.1.1925.

[waterfrontmgmt]

And you make me laugh. If you expect BB to go after the mainstream market, let me know how that works out.

BlackBerry is not in a financial position to be catering to tiny markets. As-is they have too many devices. They should have released only the Z10 (with better specs, like the Z30), the Q10, and the Z3. All else was and will be a colossal waste of money. Q5 was a failure, Z30 is in principle a failure, even though I own one as it was too late to the market and really should have been the Z10, and the Q20 will just continue this trend. Diversification in product portfolio is very expensive and not something BlackBerry can support.

At launch they should have had the Z3 at sub $200 prices off contract as the very first phone. They should have had the Q10 positioned as a middle tier device at around $400 off contract, and the Z10 with upgraded specs for around $550 off contract. That would have significantly boosted the chance of BlackBerry 10 taking off.


I said a source, you know, like one with actual stats or some concrete data. Not a user's personal experience.

You guys really make me laugh.

Posted via CB10

[dejanh]

John Chen believes they are in financial position to make these phones; I think he probably has a much better idea than anyone in these forums.

If BlackBerry does have internal data about how many users went back to Legacy devices or other platforms due to current BB10 phones having no trackpad or function keys, which I doubt, there is no way they would release such data.

Posted with my ?Q10 running 10.2.1.1925.

Tell me this then...have we not heard this same type of reasoning about Thorsten, and about Jim and Mike? I recall this same type of "they know what they are doing" argument used so many times yet time and time again (given enough time) it became apparent they had no clue what they were doing.

And you make me laugh. If you expect BB to go after the mainstream market, let me know how that works out.

BlackBerry without the consumer will fail. The world where they could rely on the business market is gone and never coming back, but this thread is not about that, is it? It's about the perception that BlackBerry is creating by effectively flip-flopping on its own platform.

On a more personal note, can you please proof read your posts? You managed to write two fragments and put a comma in the middle of the second sentence where it makes no sense at all. Yes, grammar police...it hurts my eyes.



Posted via CB10

[JAS0NB0URNE]

Tell me this then...have we not heard this same type of reasoning about Thorsten, and about Jim and Mike? I recall this same type of "they know what they are doing" argument used so many times yet time and time again (given enough time) it became apparent they had no clue what they were doing.

Posted via CB10

John Chen actually has a proven track record of turning around a floundering company. Ever hear of Sybase?



Posted with my ?Q10 running 10.2.1.1925.

[waterfrontmgmt]

Or maybe the entire smartphone market started changing dramatically when Apple wised up and put an iPod in a cell phone.

Tell me this then...have we not heard this same type of reasoning about Thorsten, and about Jim and Mike? I recall this same type of "they know what they are doing" argument used so many times yet time and time again (given enough time) it became apparent they had no clue what they were doing.


BlackBerry without the consumer will fail. The world where they could rely on the business market is gone and never coming back, but this thread is not about that, is it? It's about the perception that BlackBerry is creating by effectively flip-flopping on its own platform.

On a more personal note, can you please proof read your posts? You managed to write two fragments and put a comma in the middle of the second sentence where it makes no sense at all. Yes, grammar police...it hurts my eyes.

Posted via CB10