[Jaalouro]

Point is that u can have a old product that is properly optimized and still have amazing performance, the OP fails to see that, judging based on numbers because he feels is low compare to other product.

Passport/CB10 on WIND

[vbdwork]

Based on my experience with trying out a BlackBerry Classic in person, I'd say $450 is a steal. It runs Temple Run 2 at 60fps and runs Netflix flawlessly (install Snap 3rd party app store)

BlackBerry Q10 on 10.3.1 OS will perform exactly the same. Same CPU, same GPU, same RAM. And you can find a new one for $250. If the games are your reason to buy Classic for $450, have you seen how high-eng games run on Nexus 5 for $350 on a full-HD 5" display?

[all3n7]

Ohh! Stop complaining, just wait for a while and look around craigslist, you'll get a better deal.

" Initiated from my QNX10 "

[Bbnivende]

To say it simply:
If BlackBerry is one of the only manufacturers, who is unable to price their devices correctly, then they are simply uncompetitive.

As a customer, it's not my job to think about how BlackBerry makes money and stays in the business. That is their job.
So if everyone has more or less acceptable specs for their phones and the price of their products, except for BlackBerry, then they are uncompetitive.
Such a manufacturer will usually leave the marketplace sooner or later.

If BlackBerry has other costs than their SoC, doesn't change that.
I can get a 300$ Android phone, which destroys the Classic performance-wise. Ecosystem-wise and app-wise.
At 200$, the same applies...

It's not my job to ensure BlackBerry's survival, through paying a 100% premium, for an uncompetitive phone.
Actually, one major reason for BlackBerry's current situation, is that they sold overpriced but underspecced phones for years.
The average customer is dumb, but not that dumb.

Enterprise users will pay less for fleet sales. BlackBerry makes the best PKB phone in the world and some folks are willing to pay the asking price. The Android's that you cite do not have PKB's. The majority of PKB phone buyers are not so much interested in specs.

I do agree that the Classic will not attract a lot of buyers and the specs or price is not the problem. There is a small niche market for PKB phones.

[vbdwork]

Stop complaining, just wait for a while and look around craigslist, you'll get a better deal.

Very true. This is how I got my Z10 on a right price of $200, new in a box, factory unlocked.

[MarsupilamiX]

Point is that u can have a old product that is properly optimized and still have amazing performance, the OP fails to see that, judging based on numbers because he feels is low compare to other product.

Passport/CB10 on WIND

You probably fail to realize an integral part of this discussion:
The price/performance ratio.

Bad specs are fine. Every low-end phone has them, and there is no reason to complain, because you pay 120$ for such a phone.

Bad specs on a 450$ phone are another thing all together. It's unacceptable at that price to not have a certain level of specs in such a device.
The way the market is segmented, makes a phone costing 450$ a part of the highest tier in the mid range (ignoring local Android manufacturers). Such a phone has to be slightly worse than the current flagship, but has to be significantly better than a low range device.

And the Classic clearly ignores that market convention completely (while gaining an obscene margin for BlackBerry).

Another thing that had been said quite some time now:
BlackBerries need an Android runtime to deliver an acceptable app experience.
That Android runtime needs ressources.
Using outdated hardware won't exactly help that cause.

[Supa_Fly1]

Software and hardware go hand in hand.

BlackBerry Passport - 10.3 - WIND Mobile

You're forgetting a VERY key component in your calculation ... Carrier!

If your carrier is crap, ahem Wind Mobile, like they where then doesn't matter what OS/Hardware/Brand of phone you have if it doesn't work well and the network is sparce of cellsites, bandwidth and at the core of it all doesn't support your phones bands ... then your BlackBerry, a phone at its most basic function will NEVER work! It would not matter if it had a Corei7 3.3Ghz core in it with 24GB RAM .... no network enjoyment no phone enjoyment.

[Alain_A]

I love a good heated discussion.

Keep going guys. That's my entertainment the night....lol

Posted via CB10

[slagman5]

Msi r6950 twin frozr ii 2gb gddr5 pci e

Card runs all games up to date. Companies use the sheet number for sales but really the right motherboard is where it starts.

Passport/CB10 on WIND

$300? I just bought a 7950 with 3GB memory for $120 shipped... Now running crossfire, but stupid MSI (mobo company) put the sata ports right where the video card went, now I have to get a PCI-e to Sata card in order for me to use my optical drive...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[slagman5]

Point is that u can have a old product that is properly optimized and still have amazing performance, the OP fails to see that, judging based on numbers because he feels is low compare to other product.

Passport/CB10 on WIND

It runs current games not because of how great it is, but because games are being held back by consoles. Consoles are extremely underpowered and most developers are too lazy to build games that take advantage of high-end PC hardware, so they just make games that consoles can run and then lazily port them to PC, that's why 3 year-old PC hardware can run most current games... And the same philosophy can be applied to phones, if we limit the abilities of the OS, then old hardware can keep running it smoothly. But that's what we have to ask, are we ok with being limited to exactly what the OS can currently do? Or would you want the ability to do more things if new software advancements happen in the next year or two?

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[cbvinh]

The raw specs might not add up to a $450 phone, but it's the usage value. For those upgrading from the Bold, it's a big upgrade that may be worth the cost. The Classic is like what they're already familiar with, just much faster. No time wasted re-learning everything or figuring out stuff. That's time savings value right there.

[MarsupilamiX]

Enterprise users will pay less for fleet sales. BlackBerry makes the best PKB phone in the world and some folks are willing to pay the asking price. The Android's that you cite do not have PKB's. The majority of PKB phone buyers are not so much interested in specs.

I do agree that the Classic will not attract a lot of buyers and the specs or price is not the problem. There is a small niche market for PKB phones.

Agreed and disagreed.

Ofc fleet discounts are a thing, but I doubt that a lot of enterprises will actually buy that phone.
There really aren't a lot of reasons to do that...

I agree however that there are physical keyboard die-hards, who want a Classic. But how many of them are really out there?
In terms of marketshare, we witness a new all time low every single consecutive quarter for years now, so the bottom has still not been reached, at around 0.5% marketshare for keyboard phones.

There is also the question, of where these die-hards would go to?
Would they just stop using smartphones all together when BlackBerry disappears?

But yes, I know that a tiny, ever decreasing part of the market is willing to pay the premium for a keyboard phone like the Classic.
There are just 2 things I don't understand:
Why is their no significant premium on the Passport over non keyboard phones, but there is one for the Classic?

Why are potential BlackBerry customers not demanding more from BlackBerry?
The only reason why BlackBerry overprices the Classic so hard, is because they think that they can sell the phone at that price (which will either be completely wrong, or BlackBerry only wants to sell a very very very tiny amount of those Classics. As in, far less than most people believe).

[vbdwork]

The raw specs might not add up to a $450 phone, but it's the usage value. For those upgrading from the Bold, it's a big upgrade that may be worth the cost. The Classic is like what they're already familiar with, just much faster. No time wasted re-learning everything or figuring out stuff. That's time savings value right there.

I agree. But how many Bold users are out there? 0.2% of the market, probably? Is this Mr. Chen's company saving plan? If it is, then it's not going to work. Market analysts predict further 50% reduction in BlackBerry market share in few years. They can't survive with 2 devices per year, targeting very specific customer needs only.

[slagman5]

To be fair, we can't judge it by specs alone since the Androids didn't have to spend any money developing the OS. But I still would have liked it more at like $375 - $400 max. But oh well, $450 isn't a terrible price, but it is a bit more than I think it's worth.

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[Alain_A]

The Classic 2 will be $700.00 next year

Posted via CB10

[insandouts]

If you buy a car, you want the experience, no the size of the engine. .

maybe if you are a retiree or you use it to go shopping you might not care for the performance but most drivers care a lot about engine performance much more than anything else

[MarsupilamiX]

I agree. But how many Bold users are out there? 0.2% of the market, probably? Is this Mr. Chen's company saving plan? If it is, then it's not going to work. Market analysts predict further 50% reduction in BlackBerry market share in few years. They can't survive with 2 devices per year, targeting very specific customer needs only.

The thing is, that if both of us know that, what's the point of their strategy?
That's what really confuses me.
I am great, no questions asked, but a man like John Chen should also have his qualities.
He must understand those very simple things (for everyone who isn't a fanboy apparently) even better, since he also should have some more accurate data than we have.

So what's the matter?
Why pump out one overpriced device after the other, have one fire sale after the other, and concentrate on shrinking market segments, even though the company hasn't seen a profit in years?

The 3 simple answers I could think of:

1) BlackBerry just needs to stay in the market in one way or another, because they think that they are competitive for "the next big thing".
So having the phone business, is a necessary evil to not become fully obsolete.

2) John Chen knows that the battle is lost and that he could just as well stop making phones tomorrow, and basically nothing would change in the world of technology.
He however does continue because he believes in Halo effects (QNX, BES, BB10 needing each other), and therefore trails the phone business along until he can't do it anymore.

3) Those guys making decisions at BlackBerry are idiots who actively destroy shareholder value and should be sued into oblivion.

[vbdwork]

To be fair, we can't judge it by specs alone since the Androids didn't have to spend any money developing the OS.

Really? Samsung TouchWiz, HTC Sense, Sony Xperia UI, Motorola MotoBlur, etc. come for free? Didn't know that... I love the new Sense on HTC One, nothing even close to stock Android look and feel. And I can change global system fonts size! Imagine that! This new and exciting feature is coming to BlackBerry 10 when... around 2020?

The thing is, that if both of us know that, what's the point of their strategy?

I see no strategy. They are trying to survive with that they have left. In few years John Chen himself will be drawing hardware boards in the morning, typing software on his laptop in the afternoon, and browsing job search sites evening time.

[Carrtman]

The only thing that should happen here is simple:

Both you guys (vdbwork and Masupilami) should find another spamthread. 450 is too much for you ? Don't buy it then

Yeah the passport is slightly more expensive bit lacks the toolbelt, programmable shortcuts and simply is too wide for a lot of people

Yeah the specs - especially display - isn't top notch BUT the the target audience of this phone needs to get work done simple.

[dvarnai]

The only thing that should happen here is simple:

Both you guys (vdbwork and Masupilami) should find another spamthread. 450 is too much for you ? Don't buy it then

Yeah the passport is slightly more expensive bit lacks the toolbelt, programmable shortcuts and simply is too wide for a lot of people

Yeah the specs - especially display - isn't top notch BUT the the target audience of this phone needs to get work done simple.

for what its worth the shortcuts are part of 10.3.1 and if you install the leak it is available.

[vinniesworld]

If you want something, you'll buy it. It's that simple.
You might think, why the hell would I pay 1.5 million quid for an apartment in London when I can buy an 8 bed mansion in the country for the same price. It's all about wants and needs.

I would pay 1.5 million quid for the apartment because it is centrally located, good for work and has everything available within a short distance, something the mansion cannot offer.

I would agree in some part though that a Q10 can be picked up at a very low price now so in some respects BlackBerry has inadvertently pitched the Classic against it on a spec for spec basis though obviously the Classic (with its fully featured tool belt complete with track pad) is more suited to those die hard Bold users that lost the will to live in business when BlackBerry stopped producing them.

People will buy the Classic, it happens every time a new BlackBerry handset gets released, people always expect something for nothing.
I'm sure the gurus that market the device at that cost have done their homework and are a lot more clever than most of us CB users. The last thing BlackBerry want to do is market the device at too low a cost and it be laughable and comparable to those cheap plastic things that have a robot logo available in every single carrier store for your 7yr old kid.

[vbdwork]

Both you guys (vdbwork and Masupilami) should find another spamthread. 450 is too much for you ? Don't buy it then.

It will get very clear in just few months if it's only both of us. No worries.

[anon3700711]

My video card is 3 years old yet out performance most latest video cards today. Even after three years it sells for 300 bucks, three year old video card.

Passport/CB10 on WIND

GRAPHIC cards actually cost good money to produce, build etc. A phone can be assembled for $50. Not the same.

Posted via CB10

[eyesopen1111]

This thread is a great debate. I agree that the Classic seems overpriced, given what you receive (hardware AND software).

But i'm not sure just how this value picture will impact sales to the device's target markets of (1) die hard pkb fans who are still using legacy devices and (2) corporate fleet phone buyers. Chen had better know this part of the game quite well or else this plan will fail miserably because there simply are no other groups that I see even considering the Classic (and no advertising to lure any such others either).

What I think is important to corporate buyers is longevity of the Classic and I wonder if the lack of future proofing that comes with older specs might play a role in deciding whether to avoid the Classic as a fleet phone.

An additional risk would be future compatibility with Android apps built for newer hardware and which use locked Google Play services APIs.

So, like some others, this strategy confuses me because, from the drawing board, the Passport and the Classic seemed inadequately designed to make the number of unit sales that Chen stated that he needed to stay in the phones business. That said, I sincerely hope that Chen's plan works well because the future of BlackBerry phones may well depend on its success.

Heck, I at least hope to see the rumored hidden keyboard slider BlackBerry and the Z50 beast make it to market next year.


iPhone 6+ / iOS 8.1.2 / T-Mobile USA

[MarsupilamiX]

People will buy the Classic, it happens every time a new BlackBerry handset gets released, people always expect something for nothing.
I'm sure the gurus that market the device at that cost have done their homework and are a lot more clever than most of us CB users. The last thing BlackBerry want to do is market the device at too low a cost and it be laughable and comparable to those cheap plastic things that have a robot logo available in every single carrier store for your 7yr old kid.

1) Remember the Playbook and the Z10?
Yes? You remember the fire sales for those devices?
A fire-sale happens when you grossly overpriced your product and can't move it otherwise.

So whoever those Gurus are/were. .. My 11 year old niece understands the market better.

2) Remember the Q10/5 and the Z30?
No fire sale, but abysmal sale numbers.

Said Gurus should have knowm that overpricing doesn't help a struggling manufacturer that can't offer an ecosystem and after-sale support.

So overall, the guys pricing the devices up until now, where incompetent idiots. And that's a friendly way to say it.

3) Through overpricing their devices, while underspeccing them, BlackBerry puts itself in an even worse position, that they would be if they start to price their devices competitively.
If the Classic would cost 300$, a comparison to a phone with better specs and a better ecosystem that costs 200$ wouldn't hurt BlackBerry that much.
A Classic at 450$, suffers far more from that comparison. It also suffers more when you compare the phone to equally priced alternatives.
450$ is around the threshold to the high end. It's the price for a phone in the highest tier of the mid range. Not for an entry level device, which the Classic is, with the current specs.

4) Those cheap Android toy phones (basically what you said), outperform the Classic in terms of specs, ecosystem and apps.
Combine that with the following facts:
There are for more Androids in enterprise setups, than BlackBerries. There are far more productivity apps for Android, than BlackBerry.
More professionals use an Android, compared to BlackBerry users.
Sooo... How should I say...
Those toy phones are a better tool for a lot of people, than the "tool" called BlackBerry.