11-14-14 07:44 PM
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  1. Nine54's Avatar
    I agree with OP in wanting a compact, 9900 sized and featured, device fitted with modern OS, processor, ram, etc. Simply put, the Q20 "Classic" is not that device. Despite overstated claims in this thread, the Q20 "Classic" does NOT restore "ALL" or "EVERY" functionality lost from 9900. Generalized overstatements like that counter-productively miss the point but 10.3.1 has taken a significant leap forward to 7.1 level maturity. Or, at least about 4.5 level maturity, anyway. A GOOD thing. If the original Z had intro'd with 10.3.1 and Q10 with toolbelt, we would ALL be discussing vastly different topics today, IMO.

    I, for one, simply could not find a way to care less whether the device software is BBOS, BB10, QNX, Linux, CP/M, Pascal, etc. so long as the end result provides users with the experience they want. BBOS was bumping limits, especially running touch interfaces, but blaming it for BB's nose dive is like blaming a 30yr old horse for loosing the race. It simply isn't the old horse's fault the owner didn't get the young colt ready years earlier!! Rushing a poorly prepared young colt into a race is a recipe for last place. Delaying till BBOS was over the hill and THEN belatedly rushing an immature BB10 to market was also a recipe for last place, imo. It can be successfully argued that getting rid of BBOS's infamous "spinning clock" probably helped sales. In what way did getting rid of profile customization IMPROVE sales? Rushing a half baked OS into premature service did as much to damage BB's market share as anything BBOS's "spinning clock" had done, IMO.
    I don't think I could have said this better--and the 30-year-old horse analogy was perfect! How many companies have to attempt and arguably botch a massive platform migration before others learn from it? It's almost mind-boggling to me how corporate leaders simply ignore history and the mistakes of their competitors. Microsoft with Windows Mobile to Windows Phone, Nokia with Symbian to Windows Phone, and BlackBerry with BBOS to BB10: all of these suffered from similar strategic and tactical errors that have cost the companies millions (if not billions) of dollars, cost employees their jobs, and cost shareholders significant earnings. All of them must have thought, "Oh no, our situation is different from so-and-so's. That will never happen to us." Let's look at the top 3 critical errors made during each of these transitions:
    1. Announcing to the world that your existing platform is dead before your new platform is anywhere near ready. This is like sending an SOS to your customers telling them to stop buying your existing products. This is probably the most egregious error, especially since history has shown that the likelihood of obstacles and delays with developing a new platform is very high.
    2. Offering no backwards-compatibility or seamless migration plan between your existing and new platform. Microsoft--almost to a fault--usually ensures backwards-compatibility on the PC side. But, on the mobile side, in addition to offering zero compatibility between Windows Mobile and Windows Phone, Windows Phone 7 was so immature that hardware supporting it wouldn't even be able to support future versions of the OS. With BlackBerry, why couldn't they include a JRE with BB10 and run BBOS as a JVM? Or, just completely virtualize a BBOS device? The entire BBOS operating system + apps was loaded into less than 1GB of RAM/cache on BBOS devices! Throw a little more memory into a BB10 phone and have it run both BB10 and BBOS and just allow for seamless application windows.
    3. Overestimating your brand equity. BlackBerry had a high loyalty factor, but expecting your customers to just wait around while you get your act together shows incredible hubris. In this highly competitive market, you have to keep your customers engaged with your brand and, more importantly, give them something to buy.

    The last point, I believe, is what the OP was driving at: while BB10 was being developed and then delayed and then delayed again, the company could have continued refreshing its existing product lines. He's not saying they needed to throw an army behind it; rather, just continue to iterate on the products just like Apple does with devices like the iPhone 5 and iPhone 5s. BlackBerry could have had the 9900 and 9900+, which would have been largely the same phone but with bumped-up specs, a better camera, and whatever other new features could have been incorporated into a form-factor that wouldn't have required extensive machine retooling. And it could have run an updated version of BBOS...BBOS 7.2 or 7.5 let's say.
    Mr4aces, DiegoV_G, Frehley and 1 others like this.
    10-05-14 11:20 AM
  2. Dirtymike14's Avatar
    Ok never had a 9000 but it is still a BBOS

    Personally that was my favourite phone for typing, simply because of the thickness and huge keyboard

    Posted via CB10
    Mr4aces and Frehley like this.
    10-05-14 11:52 AM
  3. Joao Oliveira's Avatar
    I think the faith of the "Classic" was predetermined by a staff that never used the 9900 during the first 2 months if JC tenure. Then to make matters worst they had another bozo to do a rendering that also never used a 9900. JC most likely took the word of these people by the time JC announced the "Classic" the proto types were already setup as a straight keyboard. Mean while the cash went out for a new Q10 with a track belt. Just think if JC would have asked a BBOS employee instead of a BB10 bozo, we would have had the retro 9900 out in 3 months running on BBOS8.

    Look at all the 9900 parts on Ebay and Amazon. Just think same frame, same keyboard, same glass. Make the back a little thicker to accommodate a bigger battery, updated mother board with 2-3g RAM and a better camera.

    If I was running the R & D and my staff could not come up a design in 7 days they would be all fired.

    BBOS8? Just some updates from 7.1 or modify the hybrid. The retro 9900 does not need the BB10 the screen is to small to play games anyway. Sell this for under $200-300 and you have a winner. Dedicate one (1) person to update and develop the BBOS8. And if BIS is going away modify the OS.

    Continue to keep making this retro 9900 til hell freezes over. Drop the price 10-15% each year for 3-4 years.

    While this retro phone is making money and increasing the user base. Start working on a 3.5 screen for the next update 6-10 months later under a new series using BB10.

    I wonder how many man hours went into the BB10 OS to add the track belt with the BBOS hub? I would bet money it is not up to par with BBOS7. I took them 2-3 years to add about half the features that was dropped from OS7.

    Yeah, I'm the guy that was ******** 1-2 mos ago about BB10 not being as good as OS7. I don't think Blend will do everything OS7 does. So if Blend is suppose to incorporate the features of OS7 what happened when BB10 came out?

    OP think I'm beating a dead horse. Open your eyes.

    BB "just don't get it"
    I don't think Blackberry has resources to be supporting 2 completely different operative systems, every Blackberry has to come for BB10.

    Yes the Classic is a "Q20", a Q10 with tool belt and slight bigger screen, but the "Classic" name is just branding strategy to help support the marketing objective of this phone: Bring people in OS7 to upgrade to BB10.

    The name "classic" and the "tool belt" are they key features to connect the old users to the new platform
    10-05-14 05:06 PM
  4. yyzberry's Avatar
    Yes the Classic is a "Q20", a Q10 with tool belt and slight bigger screen, but the "Classic" name is just branding strategy to help support the marketing objective of this phone: Bring people in OS7 to upgrade to BB10.

    The name "classic" and the "tool belt" are they key features to connect the old users to the new platform
    -----------------------------------------------
    There are probably under 100,000 of those people remaining. I bet les than have of them will bother to stick around. They're picking up 75/25 iPhone/Android.

    The turnaround has failed.
    10-05-14 05:44 PM
  5. Joao Oliveira's Avatar
    Yes the Classic is a "Q20", a Q10 with tool belt and slight bigger screen, but the "Classic" name is just branding strategy to help support the marketing objective of this phone: Bring people in OS7 to upgrade to BB10.

    The name "classic" and the "tool belt" are they key features to connect the old users to the new platform
    -----------------------------------------------
    There are probably under 100,000 of those people remaining. I bet les than have of them will bother to stick around. They're picking up 75/25 iPhone/Android.

    The turnaround has failed.
    You are so wrong... In earnings report in December 2013, Blackberry recognised 4.3 million devices sold, wich 3.2 million of those were BBOS7 devices... not even 1 year ago, around 75% of Blackberry phones sold were OS7 devices
    Mr4aces, s2by10, Frehley and 1 others like this.
    10-05-14 06:55 PM
  6. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    This really belongs in the "Armchair CEO" forum
    Actually put it in the some people don't want and can't change. BBOS8? Yeah right.. LOL
    10-05-14 07:02 PM
  7. southlander's Avatar
    If the engineers at RIM had fixed the memory leaks and been able to seamlessly overhaul the architecture of BBOS along the way BlackBerry would not have needed to replace them. It's their fault for accepting the flaws. And the leaderships fault for letting that remain.

    And you can not expect the new folks to want to copy the old OS bit for bit. Though of course they are being forced to replicate many of the beloved BBOS features for the sake of placating the remaining fans and hopefully transitioning many of them over to BlackBerry 10. The remaining enterprise folks that is.

    Fundamentally BBOS needed restarts even as a stock installed OS to maintain performance. That's not acceptable.

    I do agree it would be cool to create the Bold 99XX hardware styling with a BlackBerry 10 OS based device. Maybe that is in the cards. You never know.
    10-05-14 08:42 PM
  8. FirstBerry101's Avatar
    This is a stupid thread.

    Posted via CB10
    ThunderShock2005 and ponpiri like this.
    10-05-14 08:52 PM
  9. MrGabriel's Avatar
    I think the faith of the "Classic" was predetermined by a staff that never used the 9900 during the first 2 months if JC tenure. Then to make matters worst they had another bozo to do a rendering that also never used a 9900. JC most likely took the word of these people by the time JC announced the "Classic" the proto types were already setup as a straight keyboard. Mean while the cash went out for a new Q10 with a track belt. Just think if JC would have asked a BBOS employee instead of a BB10 bozo, we would have had the retro 9900 out in 3 months running on BBOS8.

    Look at all the 9900 parts on Ebay and Amazon. Just think same frame, same keyboard, same glass. Make the back a little thicker to accommodate a bigger battery, updated mother board with 2-3g RAM and a better camera.

    If I was running the R & D and my staff could not come up a design in 7 days they would be all fired.

    BBOS8? Just some updates from 7.1 or modify the hybrid. The retro 9900 does not need the BB10 the screen is to small to play games anyway. Sell this for under $200-300 and you have a winner. Dedicate one (1) person to update and develop the BBOS8. And if BIS is going away modify the OS.

    Continue to keep making this retro 9900 til hell freezes over. Drop the price 10-15% each year for 3-4 years.

    While this retro phone is making money and increasing the user base. Start working on a 3.5 screen for the next update 6-10 months later under a new series using BB10.

    I wonder how many man hours went into the BB10 OS to add the track belt with the BBOS hub? I would bet money it is not up to par with BBOS7. I took them 2-3 years to add about half the features that was dropped from OS7.

    Yeah, I'm the guy that was ******** 1-2 mos ago about BB10 not being as good as OS7. I don't think Blend will do everything OS7 does. So if Blend is suppose to incorporate the features of OS7 what happened when BB10 came out?

    OP think I'm beating a dead horse. Open your eyes.

    BB "just don't get it"


    Posted via CB10
    10-05-14 09:34 PM
  10. Norg's Avatar
    You are missing the point of the Classic. The idea is to eventually migrate away from BBOS. It's a disadvantage to have to have to maintain two completely different code bases.
    The Classic will try to make BBOS hold-outs a little more comfortable with the transition. Those that simply can't deal with the change will be left behind and they can choose whatever alternative they want.
    BB10 is the way forward for BB. They will win some and lose some. That is just the reality of the situation.
    I hear ya, but it that's the case, then at least bring back some of OS7's key features that worked so flawlessly!! A big for instance, it's ticked off so many of us faithful since the launch of OS10 that it still does not sync completely with MS Outlook as it did with Legacy devices!! I and I'm sure hundreds of thousands of other business people, rely on MS Outlook for business on our laptops as our daily driver!!!

    You have to admit, when OS10 first launched, you would have sworn that a designer was asked to mimic key features of IOS to get it launch ready.
    Last edited by Norg; 10-07-14 at 09:44 PM.
    Mr4aces likes this.
    10-05-14 09:48 PM
  11. Norg's Avatar
    If the engineers at RIM had fixed the memory leaks and been able to seamlessly overhaul the architecture of BBOS along the way BlackBerry would not have needed to replace them. It's their fault for accepting the flaws. And the leaderships fault for letting that remain.

    And you can not expect the new folks to want to copy the old OS bit for bit. Though of course they are being forced to replicate many of the beloved BBOS features for the sake of placating the remaining fans and hopefully transitioning many of them over to BlackBerry 10. The remaining enterprise folks that is.

    Fundamentally BBOS needed restarts even as a stock installed OS to maintain performance. That's not acceptable.

    I do agree it would be cool to create the Bold 99XX hardware styling with a BlackBerry 10 OS based device. Maybe that is in the cards. You never know.
    One of the most important lessons to remember in maintaining and growing a strong business, and I witnessed this first hand after spending close to 20 years with an equipment manufacturer that is unfortunately now but a skeleton of its once mighty self... Never forget your clients that got you be successful in the first place, to do so is a slow and painful suicide.
    Nine54, Mr4aces and Frehley like this.
    10-05-14 10:07 PM
  12. Norg's Avatar
    I think the faith of the "Classic" was predetermined by a staff that never used the 9900 during the first 2 months if JC tenure. Then to make matters worst they had another bozo to do a rendering that also never used a 9900. JC most likely took the word of these people by the time JC announced the "Classic" the proto types were already setup as a straight keyboard. Mean while the cash went out for a new Q10 with a track belt. Just think if JC would have asked a BBOS employee instead of a BB10 bozo, we would have had the retro 9900 out in 3 months running on BBOS8.

    Look at all the 9900 parts on Ebay and Amazon. Just think same frame, same keyboard, same glass. Make the back a little thicker to accommodate a bigger battery, updated mother board with 2-3g RAM and a better camera.

    If I was running the R & D and my staff could not come up a design in 7 days they would be all fired.

    BBOS8? Just some updates from 7.1 or modify the hybrid. The retro 9900 does not need the BB10 the screen is to small to play games anyway. Sell this for under $200-300 and you have a winner. Dedicate one (1) person to update and develop the BBOS8. And if BIS is going away modify the OS.

    Continue to keep making this retro 9900 til hell freezes over. Drop the price 10-15% each year for 3-4 years.

    While this retro phone is making money and increasing the user base. Start working on a 3.5 screen for the next update 6-10 months later under a new series using BB10.

    I wonder how many man hours went into the BB10 OS to add the track belt with the BBOS hub? I would bet money it is not up to par with BBOS7. I took them 2-3 years to add about half the features that was dropped from OS7.

    Yeah, I'm the guy that was ******** 1-2 mos ago about BB10 not being as good as OS7. I don't think Blend will do everything OS7 does. So if Blend is suppose to incorporate the features of OS7 what happened when BB10 came out?

    OP think I'm beating a dead horse. Open your eyes.

    BB "just don't get it"
    I absolutely love BlackBerry to death and I especially love the potential for making BB OS10 the best damn platform out there...however rest assured that I do share some of your pain brother...
    Mr4aces and Frehley like this.
    10-05-14 10:13 PM
  13. velkod's Avatar
    Stick to your bold I guess. Man some ppl are offended here. Start your own phone company and show BlackBerry how it's done I guess. Don't like it? Don't buy it. It's the tool belt that's classic not the phone. My god, otherwise it'd be called the new BlackBerry Bold!!!!!!
    Norg and ThunderShock2005 like this.
    10-05-14 10:15 PM
  14. BBjer's Avatar
    The Classic is verified the thinnest bb10 device. I'm pretty sure nothing like the qq10

    Posted via CB10
    10-05-14 10:17 PM
  15. matt4pack's Avatar
    If the engineers at RIM had fixed the memory leaks and been able to seamlessly overhaul the architecture of BBOS along the way BlackBerry would not have needed to replace them. It's their fault for accepting the flaws. And the leaderships fault for letting that remain.

    And you can not expect the new folks to want to copy the old OS bit for bit. Though of course they are being forced to replicate many of the beloved BBOS features for the sake of placating the remaining fans and hopefully transitioning many of them over to BlackBerry 10. The remaining enterprise folks that is.

    Fundamentally BBOS needed restarts even as a stock installed OS to maintain performance. That's not acceptable.

    I do agree it would be cool to create the Bold 99XX hardware styling with a BlackBerry 10 OS based device. Maybe that is in the cards. You never know.
    That's like saying that Microsoft should have fixed windows 9x or windows mobile and apple should have fixed mac os or newton os instead of moving on to windows nt and os x architectures.

    If the architecture isn't there it just isn't there and you have to move on as bbos was originally designed for pagers and they got all they could out of it.
    Xenolock likes this.
    10-05-14 11:14 PM
  16. idssteve's Avatar
    That's like saying that Microsoft should have fixed windows 9x or windows mobile and apple should have fixed mac os or newton os instead of moving on to windows nt and os x architectures.

    If the architecture isn't there it just isn't there and you have to move on as bbos was originally designed for pagers and they got all they could out of it.


    Microsoft DID carry and advance Win3.1, 3.11, DOS 6.22, 95, 98 and ME while simultaneously marketing NT from it's intro as NT 3.1 in 1993 thru Win2000 as it matured into XP in 2001. Hard to call XP anything but a profitable success for MS. Shutting down your existing OS BEFORE the new OS has matured enough to truly replace the old one is a recipe for failure. MS wisely knew better and profited.
    Nine54 and Mr4aces like this.
    10-06-14 02:01 AM
  17. enik's Avatar
    They don't want to sell more legacy products. The quicker they get everyone on bb10 the more resources it will free up.

    Posted via CB10
    10-06-14 07:13 AM
  18. matt4pack's Avatar
    Microsoft DID carry and advance Win3.1, 3.11, DOS 6.22, 95, 98 and ME while simultaneously marketing NT from it's intro as NT 3.1 in 1993 thru Win2000 as it matured into XP in 2001. Hard to call XP anything but a profitable success for MS. Shutting down your existing OS BEFORE the new OS has matured enough to truly replace the old one is a recipe for failure. MS wisely knew better and profited.
    Only because the consumer hardware of the time couldn't run nt. They had no choice and as soon as the hardware caught up with software 9x was thrown out as fast as possible after the ME failure.

    I guess Blackberry should have come out with their own Blackberry ME as the final swan song to make a few of you happy.
    10-06-14 02:23 PM
  19. dale-c's Avatar
    My first mac was an OS 9 I Mac which I upgraded to OS X fairly soon after. This is very similar. Sure, there were cool things left out that took years to get back in. However, no one that actually made the switch was wanting to go back after learning OS X.

    BBOS is dead. BBOS is HATED by a huge portion of the population. The sooner they can get people to think of BlackBerry as bb10 the better.

    Posted via CB10
    Elite1 likes this.
    10-06-14 09:19 PM
  20. idssteve's Avatar
    Only because the consumer hardware of the time couldn't run nt. They had no choice and as soon as the hardware caught up with software 9x was thrown out as fast as possible after the ME failure.

    I guess Blackberry should have come out with their own Blackberry ME as the final swan song to make a few of you happy.
    Not about making me happy. It's about BB's survival. 98SE died a "natural" death through ME. Consumers EAGERLY migrated from the ME disaster into an XP that was ready to accept them. MS didn't HAVE to kill ME off unnaturally. Natural market forces took care of that for them. Painful for ME users but marketing genius on MS's part. XP was made ready through 8 years of parallel development. Had MS shut off 98SE and attempted to coerce their loyal customers into a not yet ready Win2000 a couple years too early, Apple might be the dominant OS today. The consumer really doesn't care if their HD is FAT32 or NTFS. They just wanted the BSOD to go away. MS was smart to ADD useability features over 9x while leaving very few behind. User interface changes were cautiously managed. Some lessons MS seems to have neglected with their XP to 8 transition. Blame the "ignorant consumer" all you want but if you want their money, you'll need to leverage technology to provide that consumer with features they perceive as important. Offer the customer something that they can perceive as truly BETTER and the migration will happen naturally, and voluntarily.

    It's looking like BB10.3.1 will finally start getting there, once released.
    10-07-14 04:36 AM
  21. kenzo_44's Avatar
    I don't know...It takes a few features from the 9780!

    Posted via CB10
    10-07-14 04:45 AM
  22. idssteve's Avatar
    I don't know...It takes a few features from the 9780!

    Posted via CB10
    Agreed. And we could more readily accept those losses if those features were somehow responsible for the infamous "spinning clock" or if consumers were refusing to buy the device because they simply didn't want those features anywhere on the device. The real case of it, imo, is that it takes time to code features into a new OS. I'm encouraged that BB is at least demonstrating intention to eventually include valued BBOS features into the powerful, and reliable, QNX OS.
    10-07-14 04:59 AM
  23. VeryBumpy's Avatar
    All this debate has me wondering, has anyone ever done an interview with BB on why so many great BBOS features are missing from BB10?
    Mr4aces, Plazmic Flame and Frehley like this.
    10-07-14 10:50 AM
  24. Mr4aces's Avatar
    I support this statement hoping it's true, they need to have a laser focus on a few specific products, and keeping OS7 around is bad for everyone: it's a drag on BBRY bottom line, it's bad allocation of R&D, bad allocation of resources, keeps the public/enterprise from upgrading to OS10. I know Thorsten said they'd continue to support OS7 - that was in 2012. I hope Chen changes that. As a turnaround guy, he knows the importance of killing off dying products. OS7 is a dying (but not yet dead) breed. The catch is doing it in a way that enterprise (Chen's focus) doesn't run away.
    My first mac was an OS 9 I Mac which I upgraded to OS X fairly soon after. This is very similar. Sure, there were cool things left out that took years to get back in. However, no one that actually made the switch was wanting to go back after learning OS X.

    BBOS is dead. BBOS is HATED by a huge portion of the population. The sooner they can get people to think of BlackBerry as bb10 the better.

    Posted via CB10
    How is BBOS draging BlackBerry down? They don't support it, they make money off BIS and they are still selling BBOS phones used and new. There is no R & D cost, no additional tooling cost to make the 9900.

    Think like a executive and look at the bottom line.

    BBOS is HATED by a hug portion of the population
    No the other way around, people that were on BBOS and went to BB10 when it first came out. Have that feeling of being rip off because BB10 was not ready and the BB10 phones were over prices. Then to top things off RIM came out the the Playbook and abandon the BBOS platform. How many people over paid for that product?

    After 3 years BB10 is only now getting to be what it should have been. I wonder how many man hours went into BB10 to get it up to this point?
    10-07-14 11:14 AM
  25. Mr4aces's Avatar
    All this debate has me wondering, has anyone ever done an interview with BB on why so many great BBOS features are missing from BB10?
    Good question. I think it would only open the RIM/ML can of worms.

    Research, no motion: How the BlackBerry CEOs lost an empire | The Verge
    10-07-14 11:21 AM
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