06-20-14 12:07 AM
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  1. waterfrontmgmt's Avatar
    This is wrong on so many levels. I'm sure a 3rd grade class could be more productive on a legacy device too. Data from one company means nothing. It all depends on who the users are and what they are using the device for.

    I'm sure if a company relied on download speed, they would be FAR more productive on a BB10 device with 4G.

    I am excited for the tool belt too, but reality is reality.
    I'll try to get a more detailed reply as time permits later today but the short answer starts with efficiency of movement. It only requires 1/4" of thumb movement to navigate 4" worth of screen. That makes single handed operation a joy. And that navigation is done with a relatively discrete "pointer" that occupies significantly less screen real estate than a relatively gigantic finger does. You can see what you're selecting while you're selecting it. Several of us in my office can go on forever about it but the easiest way to see for yourself is if you can get access to an old 9930 and just play with it and your q10. Try selecting and updating some excel cells on both devices. Especially with a single hand.

    The other "easy" path to my overly generalized conclusion is simple productivity experience. Our office can very easily document the difference in productivity as we transitioned from 9650 to Z to Q and back to 9930/9650. We also have data through direct comparison with a competitor that never abandoned their 9650s. Despite the older OS in the legacy devices, productivity data speak for themselves. Most in our office state that they feel less exhausted by shift change (we are 24/7 operation) now that we've reverted to legacy. Touch demands more user attention than trackpad, in our collaborated opinion.

    Reliability and predictability of the devices' reactions to input are another significant superiority of track. It's simply less exhausting to assure the device is actually doing, or not doing, the will of the user. I'm sure it depends on how mission critical the end result is for the individual user. Mistakes made on touch devices have lost us customers. Never a problem with the track devices.

    We've joked that BB should use our office to torture test their devices. NO doubt our usage is extreme but if we give up after a year, the general population must eventually see the same thing. It will just take longer. It will be a long while before i can convince anyone in my crew to abandon track.

    Edit: The deal seal for me was when one of my crew asked: "...what can touch do that track can't?" ???
    Mr4aces likes this.
    04-23-14 10:52 AM
  2. koebi90's Avatar
    A November release would make sense considering, that the 10.3 release is about to happen around the end of the year according to newest N4BB article!

    http://n4bb.com/blackberry-os-10-3-1...sing-end-year/

    Posted on CB 10 and typed on the best Keyboard ever
    waterfrontmgmt likes this.
    04-23-14 10:54 AM
  3. waterfrontmgmt's Avatar
    I have had somewhere around 20 trackpad devices. Never had a single problem with any of them, as far as the trackpad goes.
    I'll never buy another BlackBerry with the track pad. Had 50% failure rate on six devices used in the family with them, making the devices difficult to use.

    Posted via CB10
    Mr4aces likes this.
    04-23-14 10:54 AM
  4. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    A November release would make sense considering, that the 10.3 release is about to happen around the end of the year according to newest N4BB article!

    http://n4bb.com/blackberry-os-10-3-1...sing-end-year/

    Posted on CB 10 and typed on the best Keyboard ever
    Sigh.... that's 10.3.1 not 10.3....

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141
    04-23-14 11:03 AM
  5. kevets's Avatar
    I am all for some convenience keys again! When everything is touchscreen, a couple of hardware buttons that are always-on and programmable would be a welcome sight.

    Toolbelt, physical trackpad, personally I don't need it. Would I prefer a virtual toolbelt with all the proposed functionality? Hell Yeah!

    Now I need to find a good virtual toolbelt mock-up for my channel nobody will ever look at, lol
    04-23-14 11:07 AM
  6. idssteve's Avatar
    I'll never buy another BlackBerry with the track pad. Had 50% failure rate on six devices used in the family with them, making the devices difficult to use.

    Posted via CB10
    Yeah, we've had failures also. Especially early 9650... a protective? layer of some kind wears off and snags the finger. Looked like a crack. Later replacement TPs don't seem so affected... for us anyway. My personal 9930 once got into a fit where sunlight would mess with it. Never knew if it was a scratch in just the right place or ? Just replaced the keyboard and went on. $10 and 10 minutes. We replace keyboards due to paint wearing off the keys pretty regularly. The trackpad just gets replaced along with it so maybe there's a production issue we're not really seeing. 50% failure would certainly have me running from it as well. I'll see what our IT guy has for stats on that. My advocacy for track is about navigating efficiency and not necessarily production issues. But i'm all ears? We had some touch failures during that year long experiment but i can't really say it wasn't from abuse. My 9930 once got dropped face down and spiderweb cracked the glass and the thing kept on working! The touch seemed mostly unaffected by the cracks! Amazing tech.
    Mr4aces likes this.
    04-23-14 11:17 AM
  7. qbnkelt's Avatar
    I'll try to get a more detailed reply as time permits later today but the short answer starts with efficiency of movement. It only requires 1/4" of thumb movement to navigate 4" worth of screen. That makes single handed operation a joy.
    Joy is an emotion, and so inherently subjective. That which causes you joy is neutral to me. Since I type two handed, my thumbs are moving all over the keyboard and through two handed use, which is what I have used with every smartphone I have ever used, the most I have to reach on my Q10 are two inches vertically. Therefore, the reach/movement of my thumbs are of equal importance as, say, the colour of the paint on the keys. In other words, it is of no relevance. Therefore, that point is subjective.

    And that navigation is done with a relatively discrete "pointer" that occupies significantly less screen real estate than a relatively gigantic finger does. You can see what you're selecting while you're selecting it.
    Since I'm 4'11, there is nothing about me that is gigantic, making this point equally irrelevant to me. Therefore, this is subjective as it denotes a discrete personal preference due to individual size of fingers. Not everyone has gigantic fingers.

    Several of us in my office can go on forever about it but the easiest way to see for yourself is if you can get access to an old 9930 and just play with it and your q10. Try selecting and updating some excel cells on both devices. Especially with a single hand.
    I've got a work issued 9930. While I don't type on the screen, I do select text, cells, radio buttons on the screen as opposed to using the trackpad. To me, it feels more direct, and so more comfortable. Therefore, that point is also subjective. And as previously stated, I feel no preference in favour of one handed operation of any smartphone.

    The other "easy" path to my overly generalized conclusion is simple productivity experience. Our office can very easily document the difference in productivity as we transitioned from 9650 to Z to Q and back to 9930/9650. We also have data through direct comparison with a competitor that never abandoned their 9650s. Despite the older OS in the legacy devices, productivity data speak for themselves. Most in our office state that they feel less exhausted by shift change (we are 24/7 operation) now that we've reverted to legacy. Touch demands more user attention than trackpad, in our collaborated opinion.
    This could be an interesting objective experiment if there were an actual study and data to support it. However, if I were part of your sample, I might skew your data since I would revert to touch selection rather than trackpad. There are two different variables here:
    1) legacy BBOS with trackpad
    2) BB10 without trackpad
    I would be interested in how a trackpad can affect productivity and cause fatigue so dramatically. I feel the converse is true. I hate having to go to the menu button or trackpad and then having to select there rather than select on the screen, which is much more natural to me. One naturally points to the object of reference, and so to me the most natural reference is the item of the screen via direct touch. Therefore, without the objective experiment I alluded to earlier, this is also a subjective point, since I also find myself selecting on the screen while using my 9930. Two handed. As always.

    Reliability and predictability of the devices' reactions to input are another significant superiority of track.
    I have to vehemently disagree on the reliability and predictability of the trackpad. I have had the trackpad act with exctreme hypersensitivity even after adjusting the sensitivity as well as react to sunlight and to finger hovers. In fact, the forum has several posts that deal with trackpad issues. To add to the sensitivity issue, there is failure of the trackpad to respond at all. Finally, there have been instances of trackpads falling off altogether. The trackpad, as in anything physical, is prone to wear and therefore failure. On this, I disagree with your statement and cannot agree to calling it objective, since given the instances of failure for different reasons, it is actually a subjective opinion.


    It's simply less exhausting to assure the device is actually doing, or not doing, the will of the user.
    Subjective. I feel no exhaustion by touching the screen, and that ensures that I select what I mean to select.

    re it depends on how mission critical the end result is for the individual user. Mistakes made on touch devices have lost us customers. Never a problem with the track devices.
    This is not something that can be proven unless replicated. I defer to your data on that.

    We joke that BB should use our office to torture test their devices. NO doubt our usage is extreme but if we give up after a year, the general population must eventually see the same thing. It will just take longer. It will be a long while before i can convince anyone in my crew to abandon track.

    Edit: The deal seal for me was when one of my crew asked: "...what can touch do that track can't?" ???
    Subjective.
    I'm not familiar with how an office setting can be extreme. I would have to defer to you on that.

    None of what you have presented makes a case for reaching the inescapable conclusion that trackpad is better than screen selection of text. In point of fact, most of your points refer to personal preference, as much as personal preference to chocolate over vanilla, British comedies over American counterparts, or Angelina Jolie over Jennifer Anniston. I'm joking, but in reality, it's a matter of personal taste. I feel no need to handle my device one handed as a matter of choice, I don't prefer a trackpad over on screen selection, and I remember all too well my own issues with over sensitive trackpads as well as myriad posts here regarding trackpad problems and failures.

    Different strokes, different folks. If trackpads were such a force for effective selection, BlackBerry's BBOS 7 would not have lost ground as dramatically as it did. Therefore, there are other considerations when choosing smartphones. I happen to not feel that the trackpad is needed.

    Will I get a Q20? You bet. Will I use the trackpad? I'll see. I've got the feeling I won't. I'll buy the device because I'm a phone hoarder.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    04-23-14 12:23 PM
  8. idssteve's Avatar
    Joy is an emotion, and so inherently subjective. That which causes you joy is neutral to me. Since I type two handed, my thumbs are moving all over the keyboard and through two handed use, which is what I have used with every smartphone I have ever used, the most I have to reach on my Q10 are two inches vertically. Therefore, the reach/movement of my thumbs are of equal importance as, say, the colour of the paint on the keys. In other words, it is of no relevance. Therefore, that point is subjective.


    Since I'm 4'11, there is nothing about me that is gigantic, making this point equally irrelevant to me. Therefore, this is subjective as it denotes a discrete personal preference due to individual size of fingers. Not everyone has gigantic fingers.


    I've got a work issued 9930. While I don't type on the screen, I do select text, cells, radio buttons on the screen as opposed to using the trackpad. To me, it feels more direct, and so more comfortable. Therefore, that point is also subjective. And as previously stated, I feel no preference in favour of one handed operation of any smartphone.


    This could be an interesting objective experiment if there were an actual study and data to support it. However, if I were part of your sample, I might skew your data since I would revert to touch selection rather than trackpad. There are two different variables here:
    1) legacy BBOS with trackpad
    2) BB10 without trackpad
    I would be interested in how a trackpad can affect productivity and cause fatigue so dramatically. I feel the converse is true. I hate having to go to the menu button or trackpad and then having to select there rather than select on the screen, which is much more natural to me. One naturally points to the object of reference, and so to me the most natural reference is the item of the screen via direct touch. Therefore, without the objective experiment I alluded to earlier, this is also a subjective point, since I also find myself selecting on the screen while using my 9930. Two handed. As always.


    I have to vehemently disagree on the reliability and predictability of the trackpad. I have had the trackpad act with exctreme hypersensitivity even after adjusting the sensitivity as well as react to sunlight and to finger hovers. In fact, the forum has several posts that deal with trackpad issues. To add to the sensitivity issue, there is failure of the trackpad to respond at all. Finally, there have been instances of trackpads falling off altogether. The trackpad, as in anything physical, is prone to wear and therefore failure. On this, I disagree with your statement and cannot agree to calling it objective, since given the instances of failure for different reasons, it is actually a subjective opinion.



    Subjective. I feel no exhaustion by touching the screen, and that ensures that I select what I mean to select.


    This is not something that can be proven unless replicated. I defer to your data on that.


    Subjective.
    I'm not familiar with how an office setting can be extreme. I would have to defer to you on that.

    None of what you have presented makes a case for reaching the inescapable conclusion that trackpad is better than screen selection of text. In point of fact, most of your points refer to personal preference, as much as personal preference to chocolate over vanilla, British comedies over American counterparts, or Angelina Jolie over Jennifer Anniston. I'm joking, but in reality, it's a matter of personal taste. I feel no need to handle my device one handed as a matter of choice, I don't prefer a trackpad over on screen selection, and I remember all too well my own issues with over sensitive trackpads as well as myriad posts here regarding trackpad problems and failures.

    Different strokes, different folks. If trackpads were such a force for effective selection, BlackBerry's BBOS 7 would not have lost ground as dramatically as it did. Therefore, there are other considerations when choosing smartphones. I happen to not feel that the trackpad is needed.

    Will I get a Q20? You bet. Will I use the trackpad? I'll see. I've got the feeling I won't. I'll buy the device because I'm a phone hoarder.
    Logically analyzed. Your comments stand on their own. It mostly boils down to subjective preference. Different strokes (or gestures in this case) for different folks.
    kbz1960 and Mr4aces like this.
    04-23-14 01:24 PM
  9. qbnkelt's Avatar
    Obladi, oblada, etc.... :-D

    Posted from my awesome Q10 via CB10.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    04-23-14 01:44 PM
  10. AthenaSmith's Avatar
    Let me preface my question by saying that I've currently got a Q10 and that I'll be getting a Q20, simply because it will be BlackBerry's next physical keyboard device. That said, why is the trackpad's superiority an inescapable fact in your opinion?

    Curious.


    Posted from my awesome Q10 via CB10.
    I have a Q10 as well (Bold 9900 prior) and will be purchasing the Q20/Classic. I prefer my phone to have a trackpad because of its precision, speed, and exact cursor placement. It also makes selecting, copying, cutting, and pasting a lot easier. The Q10's white/blue circle takes up more seconds to execute what I want, because it tends to either overshoot or fall short, or not appear at all and I have to tap elsewhere first before tapping on the intended spot.


    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by AthenaSmith; 04-23-14 at 07:20 PM.
    04-23-14 07:09 PM
  11. Ray III's Avatar
    So what is in the other hand that everyone does everything one handed? I hope they aren't driving.
    I can carry something while using my phone.

    If wearing gloves covered in filth, I only have to remove one to use my phone.

    When operating equipment, I don't necessarily have to stop to check/make a quick reply to text messages.

    On my lunch break I can be on Facebook with one hand and eating pizza with the other.

    I play on my phone in bed and prefer to have the other arm under the covers where it's nice and warm.

    You can be on a ladder or some other place where you have to hang on.

    Etc...
    slagman5 likes this.
    04-24-14 05:49 PM
  12. Ray III's Avatar
    I would be interested in how a trackpad can affect productivity and cause fatigue so dramatically.
    A small reduction in movement may not result in a noticeable reduction in effort for one instance. However, when a movement is repeated over and over again, perhaps thousands of times in a day, it is proven that minimizing that movement will diminish the stress a person feels at the end of the day.

    For another example, look inside the cab of a modern farm tractor. The implement control levers of older tractors have been replaced by fingertip controls in an armrest. The old control levers were certainly not difficult to use, but by eliminating the arm movement and having merely the tips of your fingers move a switch up and down, operator fatigue is greatly reduced after 12 hours of lifting, lowering, and adjusting plows every pass through a field.
    04-24-14 06:14 PM
  13. idssteve's Avatar
    I can carry something while using my phone.

    If wearing gloves covered in filth, I only have to remove one to use my phone.

    When operating equipment, I don't necessarily have to stop to check/make a quick reply to text messages.

    On my lunch break I can be on Facebook with one hand and eating pizza with the other.

    I play on my phone in bed and prefer to have the other arm under the covers where it's nice and warm.

    You can be on a ladder or some other place where you have to hang on.

    Etc...
    One of the earliest lessons of parenthood was when holding a sleeping infant, doing ANYthing with both hands risked waking. The wife and i use our single handed devices for quiet communication when rocking the grand baby. The daughter has retired her iPhone and activated my old 9650 for similar single handed reasons.
    Last edited by idssteve; 04-24-14 at 09:40 PM.
    Ray III likes this.
    04-24-14 09:05 PM
  14. idssteve's Avatar
    A small reduction in movement may not result in a noticeable reduction in effort for one instance. However, when a movement is repeated over and over again, perhaps thousands of times in a day, it is proven that minimizing that movement will diminish the stress a person feels at the end of the day.

    For another example, look inside the cab of a modern farm tractor. The implement control levers of older tractors have been replaced by fingertip controls in an armrest. The old control levers were certainly not difficult to use, but by eliminating the arm movement and having merely the tips of your fingers move a switch up and down, operator fatigue is greatly reduced after 12 hours of lifting, lowering, and adjusting plows every pass through a field.
    The fatigue i was referring to was stress fatigue. The stress of uncertainty. Sort of like driving 8 hrs on open interstate compared with 8 hrs in NYC. The difference in steering wheel, brake and accelerator caloric requirements might be nearly negligible but which 8 hrs might leave you more exhausted at the end of the day? Some folks are stressed by track and comforted by touch. Others, like myself, are stressed by touch and find comfort in track. Plenty of room for both in the world. As long as one type doesn't seek to disenfranchise the other.
    Last edited by idssteve; 04-24-14 at 10:03 PM.
    04-24-14 09:12 PM
  15. bborgimicks's Avatar
    Given the number of key resignations I suspect the classic idea wasn't well received by Senior bb10 developers (as it runs against many of the main design principles). This is truly chens baby. Personally I find it naive and delusional, but time will tell.
    That's an interesting statement. Sometimes programmers can be very resistant to change, especially if they feel it's too far reaching for the timeline in question ....things can only go up hill in my not-so-humble opinion.
    04-25-14 12:46 AM
  16. kbz1960's Avatar
    I can carry something while using my phone.

    If wearing gloves covered in filth, I only have to remove one to use my phone.

    When operating equipment, I don't necessarily have to stop to check/make a quick reply to text messages.

    On my lunch break I can be on Facebook with one hand and eating pizza with the other.

    I play on my phone in bed and prefer to have the other arm under the covers where it's nice and warm.

    You can be on a ladder or some other place where you have to hang on.

    Etc...
    Well I can use my phone one handed too, without buttons.
    lnichols likes this.
    04-25-14 07:01 AM
  17. idssteve's Avatar
    Well I can use my phone one handed too, without buttons.
    So can I. Did so for the best part of a year. The four letter expletive "can't" is no where in my vocabulary. (courtesy USMC) Some of us find single handed operation possible with and without buttons but simply prefer buttons and trackpad for missions we find them best suited for. Others find glass best suits their mission. Diversity is a wondrous thing.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    04-25-14 10:01 AM
  18. Prem WatsApp's Avatar
    All of this blah blah blah (it's "too" btw) and you don't seem to understand this phone is IN ADDITION to the all-touch and regular qwerty phones that they're already making. Those should "cater" to the general public under you logic (how have that been working out?). You act like releasing another option would somehow make their situation any worse...

    Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10
    Thanks slagman, for making sense. Into that and the previous posts you replied to.

    Zzzzwiped from a Zedevice....
    04-27-14 02:40 AM
  19. Xadion's Avatar
    After getting a Q10 and having only about a day with it, I really see the need for the belt and the OS optimizations as it is clear coming from my Z10 that this OS is not really made with keyboard in mind, ironically.


    Posted via CB10
    04-27-14 11:47 AM
  20. Koepman's Avatar
    Can't wait to get it... and also the Q30...

    Visit my Channel C00121417 ?
    Bonnie Bonzai likes this.
    05-01-14 05:17 AM
  21. waterfrontmgmt's Avatar
    I disagree. BB10 is awesome on the Q10. There are a few areas where the smaller screen makes it tough to click on specific areas...like inside the Calendar app. But the trackpad will solve this.
    After getting a Q10 and having only about a day with it, I really see the need for the belt and the OS optimizations as it is clear coming from my Z10 that this OS is not really made with keyboard in mind, ironically.


    Posted via CB10
    05-01-14 10:49 AM
  22. constable24601's Avatar
    Confirmed by my local AT&T store also.
    05-13-14 01:15 PM
  23. calicocat2010's Avatar
    Sweet my bday month!

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using CB Forums mobile app
    anon(8263181) likes this.
    05-13-14 07:14 PM
  24. anon5759238's Avatar
    Ya someone else from a farming background!

    Posted via CB10
    05-13-14 07:53 PM
  25. jrwagh333's Avatar

    I play on my phone in bed and prefer to have the other arm under the covers where it's nice and warm.
    Yeah, OK. That's what you do with your other hand....


    Posted via CB10 on my SwagBerry
    kbz1960 and Ray III like this.
    05-14-14 06:23 AM
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