06-20-14 12:07 AM
198 ... 45678
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  1. kevets's Avatar
    I think this, plus the enterprise BBM play, and cloud BES, is a big gamble on people being ready for phones with buttons again. I hope it works, and all culminates with a next gen slider and touchscreen model.

    If it's a disaster, slider gets cancelled and there's the touchscreens to fall back to while they try and keep plugging BBM.
    04-22-14 09:56 AM
  2. Bonnie Bonzai's Avatar
    So. Far. Away.

    I think "fall" was only the game plan from what I could tell.... was under the impression they were shooting for October, but I guess it could easily be November and maybe Chen is being safe (promise late, deliver early?).

    Z30 love going to have to suffice until then.
    Mmm, I like that "promise late, deliver early" Alright! Let's see if this happens.
    Mr4aces likes this.
    04-22-14 11:25 AM
  3. Bookshelf's Avatar
    Government starts burning end of year cash around June/July/August. Posted via CB10
    ;-| That sort of explains why they restarted making the Bolds.
    I was talking about next years budget. If you can get a phone as a unfunded early in the cycle you might get one next year.
    04-22-14 11:56 AM
  4. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    Don't feel bad, I'll explain it to you.
    I am not going to respond to each comment, as it seems that it is way over your head and you totally missed the whole concept of field to field movement. A mouse click is not the same event as a field to field event. In BBOS, when you moved up with the scroll in the trackpad, it went from field to field or icon to icon in the main menu. There is currently no function that is comparable in the BB10 OS that matched that functionality so the field or icon loses focus and the next one in the direction of the movement receives focus. A mouse moves a pointer on a screen and accepts certain events. A trackpad is not a mouse all the time. You seem to don't understand the concept. On the main screen in BB10,when you press and drag like a mouse, what happens? The main screen moves as it is a gesture. So you have to change the events so that they don't get mixed up. I can see that you have not programmed before as you are missing a lot of understanding how things work.
    04-22-14 02:32 PM
  5. RyanGermann's Avatar
    I am not going to respond to each comment, as it seems that it is way over your head and you totally missed the whole concept of field to field movement. A mouse click is not the same event as a field to field event. In BBOS, when you moved up with the scroll in the trackpad, it went from field to field or icon to icon in the main menu. There is currently no function that is comparable in the BB10 OS that matched that functionality so the field or icon loses focus and the next one in the direction of the movement receives focus. A mouse moves a pointer on a screen and accepts certain events. A trackpad is not a mouse all the time. You seem to don't understand the concept. On the main screen in BB10,when you press and drag like a mouse, what happens? The main screen moves as it is a gesture. So you have to change the events so that they don't get mixed up. I can see that you have not programmed before as you are missing a lot of understanding how things work.
    You're hung up on the fact that on BBOS, when you are on a form, and swipe on the trackpad, the focus changes to another field or icon on the homescreen or whatever.

    It took me all or three seconds to come up with this idea: how about making it so there is an INVISIBLE pixel wide mouse pointer... whatever object the pointer moves over is examined and a "setFocus" event is sent to that object.

    I didn't have to change the form fields to respond to new events or anything.

    You wanna keep telling me I don't know how to program, go ahead, because frankly, I'm not very good... but I'm a VERY VERY good UX designer and a huge part of that is knowing (as I've known since the mid 90's) what technology is capable of, and I know what kinds of events and methods are possible in modern user interfaces. Maybe you're TOO GOOD a programmer and can only see the $$$ from the bazillion lines of code you'd get paid to write if it was implemented YOUR way. I'm done wasting your time... it's easiest if I just say "you are smart and I am stupid you are right and I am wrong I'm not worthy I'm not worthy". You keep winning like Charlie Sheen.
    04-22-14 04:02 PM
  6. Tim Heard's Avatar
    Just a note that you two are likely to get this thread locked if you keep up the personal jabs.
    04-22-14 05:08 PM
  7. Ray III's Avatar
    The PlayBook wasn't half of the core functionality of a device that is a "phone" and all that work is now done or underway: it's not credible to compare the PB - BB10 delta to that of BB10 - BB10Belted.
    No, it's not as much work, but we're only looking at 6 months to implement hardware buttons vs. 2 years to develop BB10 from PlayBook OS.


    Because I know technology and software / UX design and most people who suggest how hard it will be don't say why, and often when objections are raised they are easily refuted.

    Posted via CB10
    I wasn't aware that BB10 is open source and you are privy to all the changes needed in the underlying architecture.

    And don't try telling me that they can just map a button to a gesture input; that's a half-assed way to go about it and they won't be doing it, per John Chen ("seamless").
    04-22-14 06:11 PM
  8. Mr4aces's Avatar
    Thank you for posting. I somewhat believe the keyboard and belt afficionados to be alive and kick before, and your post as well as others on this thread just reinforced it.

    BlackBerry sold 3.2 million BBOS last quarter even against dirt cheap androids and nokias. It does mean something.


    Q10SQN100-3/10.2.1.2228, Z30, Z10, iP5, SGS3
    Yes thank you idssteve and q10nutter. I was also one of the non CB people. If they dug real deep we 'might' be the majority.

    Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!
    Last edited by Mr4aces; 04-22-14 at 09:21 PM.
    04-22-14 06:11 PM
  9. tchocky77's Avatar
    I will buy one, unlocked, direct from BlackBerry.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using CB Forums mobile app
    04-22-14 09:20 PM
  10. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    You're hung up on the fact that on BBOS, when you are on a form, and swipe on the trackpad, the focus changes to another field or icon on the homescreen or whatever.

    It took me all or three seconds to come up with this idea: how about making it so there is an INVISIBLE pixel wide mouse pointer... whatever object the pointer moves over is examined and a "setFocus" event is sent to that object.

    I didn't have to change the form fields to respond to new events or anything.

    You wanna keep telling me I don't know how to program, go ahead, because frankly, I'm not very good... but I'm a VERY VERY good UX designer and a huge part of that is knowing (as I've known since the mid 90's) what technology is capable of, and I know what kinds of events and methods are possible in modern user interfaces. Maybe you're TOO GOOD a programmer and can only see the $$$ from the bazillion lines of code you'd get paid to write if it was implemented YOUR way. I'm done wasting your time... it's easiest if I just say "you are smart and I am stupid you are right and I am wrong I'm not worthy I'm not worthy". You keep winning like Charlie Sheen.
    Thanks for confirming that you can make pretty pictures in the form of UX but don't know how to program them. I have been programming for 35 years and have seen a lot of things in that time. And I don't get paid for lines of code. I get paid for performance. You are coming up with idea like you say without thinking on how they could be implemented in code. You keep thinking of a mouse, when the trackpad is more than just a mouse.
    04-22-14 09:21 PM
  11. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    No, it's not as much work, but we're only looking at 6 months to implement hardware buttons vs. 2 years to develop BB10 from PlayBook OS.

    I wasn't aware that BB10 is open source and you are privy to all the changes needed in the underlying architecture.

    And don't try telling me that they can just map a button to a gesture input; that's a half-assed way to go about it and they won't be doing it, per John Chen ("seamless").
    If he took the time to program for BB10, and followed since the Alpha days, you get a good idea how BB10 is implemented. To make pretty UX without any understanding on how they work is useless.
    04-22-14 09:25 PM
  12. idssteve's Avatar
    Thanks for confirming that you can make pretty pictures in the form of UX but don't know how to program them. I have been programming for 35 years and have seen a lot of things in that time. And I don't get paid for lines of code. I get paid for performance. You are coming up with idea like you say without thinking on how they could be implemented in code. You keep thinking of a mouse, when the trackpad is more than just a mouse.
    Hmm... good to see some "old school" folks around here. I built my first "computer" in 1969 from a kit consisting of 3 electromechanical relays, 8 toggle switches and 8 tungsten filament lamps. My first keyboard was wooden. An Apple, if memory serves. Threw out a bunch of old LPs, that are probably worth a fortune today, in order use the LP covers and storage racks for storing gigantic floppies of mid70's. College was spent programming by punching 80 bit Hollerith cards with COBOL & FORTRAN. Installed, maintained, programmed, etc various mainframes for IBM thru late 70's. IBM didn't sell computers back then. Only leased. Pieced together an IBM 360 at home. My circle of friends consisted of old "Captain Crunch Phreakers" that bought and never ate many boxes of Captain Crunch just to get the plastic whistles to use for tricking Ma Bell's system into making Phree Long Distance...

    Through the years i've programed, built and played with just about everything. I'm on my third "retirement". Just get too bored too easily. Current profession is Electrical Engineer. I've programed HP41C's, A-B SLC500, AD405, AD205, GE Panel Master TC's, EZ automation TC's, Cmore,... to think of a few off the top of my head...

    My point? NONE of us mere mortals know WHAT BlackBerry is doing to interface trackpad with OS10. Does it really matter? If they can't assemble the development resources to pull THIS off, they're headed for history. Just like old codgers like me...
    kbz1960 likes this.
    04-23-14 05:21 AM
  13. Mr4aces's Avatar
    Hmm... good to see some "old school" folks around here. I built my first "computer" in 1969 ..........

    My point? NONE of us mere mortals know WHAT BlackBerry is doing to interface trackpad with OS10. Does it really matter? If they can't assemble the development resources to pull THIS off, they're headed for history. Just like old codgers like me...
    ★★★★★

    Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!
    04-23-14 05:30 AM
  14. Koepman's Avatar
    Now I'm going to buy a Q10 till the Classic comes... so if many will act like me... BlackBerry won.

    But I guess I'm the only one...

    Since 2010 ?
    Mr4aces likes this.
    04-23-14 05:34 AM
  15. idssteve's Avatar
    Now I'm going to buy a Q10 till the Classic comes... so if many will act like me... BlackBerry won.

    But I guess I'm the only one...

    Since 2010 ?
    The Q10 is a fine device with several attractive features AND relatively few "bugs" for a "new" device. Whether you'll be happy with it depends on your individual needs. My q10 is in the drawer, still activated and still used on rare occasions. I just feel that the trackpad was a giant leap in concept. Why move your thumb 4" to do the same thing that only requires 1/4" movement on a trackpad? RIM's trackpad was so quietly implemented, AFTER the "glass revolution", as to be relegated to "mundane" status within the subconscious of too many users blinded by Apple's sparkle. Once you hold a Q10 and a 9930 in each hand and swap hands and honestly compare operations, the precision and productivity advantages of track over touch are inescapable. Track truly is the superior navigation strategy. But... i understand why BB tried to grab a byte (sp intentional ) of the i & d market and i'm really saddened that it didn't work for them. Meantime, SOME of us have work to do. BB has a chance to capitalize on their unique innovation. An innovation that sets them apart from the herd and gives them a CHANCE to be relevant 5 yrs from now. If not leading the way once again.
    04-23-14 06:09 AM
  16. qbnkelt's Avatar
    Let me preface my question by saying that I've currently got a Q10 and that I'll be getting a Q20, simply because it will be BlackBerry's next physical keyboard device. That said, why is the trackpad's superiority an inescapable fact in your opinion?

    Curious.


    Posted from my awesome Q10 via CB10.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    04-23-14 06:45 AM
  17. idssteve's Avatar
    Let me preface my question by saying that I've currently got a Q10 and that I'll be getting a Q20, simply because it will be BlackBerry's next physical keyboard device. That said, why is the trackpad's superiority an inescapable fact in your opinion?

    Curious.


    Posted from my awesome Q10 via CB10.
    I'll try to get a more detailed reply as time permits later today but the short answer starts with efficiency of movement. It only requires 1/4" of thumb movement to navigate 4" worth of screen. That makes single handed operation a joy. And that navigation is done with a relatively discrete "pointer" that occupies significantly less screen real estate than a relatively gigantic finger does. You can see what you're selecting while you're selecting it. Several of us in my office can go on forever about it but the easiest way to see for yourself is if you can get access to an old 9930 and just play with it and your q10. Try selecting and updating some excel cells on both devices. Especially with a single hand.

    The other "easy" path to my overly generalized conclusion is simple productivity experience. Our office can very easily document the difference in productivity as we transitioned from 9650 to Z to Q and back to 9930/9650. We also have data through direct comparison with a competitor that never abandoned their 9650s. Despite the older OS in the legacy devices, productivity data speak for themselves. Most in our office state that they feel less exhausted by shift change (we are 24/7 operation) now that we've reverted to legacy. Touch demands more user attention than trackpad, in our collaborated opinion.

    Reliability and predictability of the devices' reactions to input are another significant superiority of track. It's simply less exhausting to assure the device is actually doing, or not doing, the will of the user. I'm sure it depends on how mission critical the end result is for the individual user. Mistakes made on touch devices have lost us customers. Never a problem with the track devices.

    We've joked that BB should use our office to torture test their devices. NO doubt our usage is extreme but if we give up after a year, the general population must eventually see the same thing. It will just take longer. It will be a long while before i can convince anyone in my crew to abandon track.

    Edit: The deal seal for me was when one of my crew asked: "...what can touch do that track can't?" ???
    Last edited by idssteve; 04-23-14 at 08:24 AM.
    Mr4aces, donemt and itsachickthing like this.
    04-23-14 07:53 AM
  18. kbz1960's Avatar
    So what is in the other hand that everyone does everything one handed? I hope they aren't driving.
    04-23-14 08:10 AM
  19. idssteve's Avatar
    So what is in the other hand that everyone does everything one handed? I hope they aren't driving.
    Taking notes, for one thing.
    04-23-14 08:22 AM
  20. kbz1960's Avatar
    Taking notes, for one thing.
    Wouldn't note taking be faster with two hands? I thought it was all about speed?
    04-23-14 09:16 AM
  21. idssteve's Avatar
    Wouldn't note taking be faster with two hands? I thought it was all about speed?
    Yeah, i grew up with a kid that could handle a pencil and write with his feet... both hands and both feet would be faster yet....

    Most of us write with one hand. SOME of us have things to write down while using our phones.
    04-23-14 09:48 AM
  22. Mr4aces's Avatar

    .......The other "easy" path to my overly generalized conclusion is simple productivity experience. Our office can very easily document the difference in productivity as we transitioned from 9650 to Z to Q and back to 9930/9650. We also have data through direct comparison with a competitor that never abandoned their 9650s. Despite the older OS in the legacy devices, productivity data speak for themselves. Most in our office state that they feel less exhausted by shift change (we are 24/7 operation) now that we've reverted to legacy. Touch demands more user attention than trackpad, in our collaborated opinion.

    Reliability and predictability of the devices' reactions to input are another significant superiority of track. It's simply less exhausting to assure the device is actually doing, or not doing, the will of the user. I'm sure it depends on how mission critical the end result is for the individual user. Mistakes made on touch devices have lost us customers. Never a problem with the track devices.

    ......... It will be a long while before i can convince anyone in my crew to abandon track.

    Edit: The deal seal for me was when one of my crew asked: "...what can touch do that track can't?" ???
    Hello Steve

    Well said, it is hard to miss something it you never had it.

    Great feedback 9900 vs Q10

    Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!
    04-23-14 10:08 AM
  23. lnichols's Avatar
    I'll try to get a more detailed reply as time permits later today but the short answer starts with efficiency of movement. It only requires 1/4" of thumb movement to navigate 4" worth of screen. That makes single handed operation a joy. And that navigation is done with a relatively discrete "pointer" that occupies significantly less screen real estate than a relatively gigantic finger does. You can see what you're selecting while you're selecting it. Several of us in my office can go on forever about it but the easiest way to see for yourself is if you can get access to an old 9930 and just play with it and your q10. Try selecting and updating some excel cells on both devices. Especially with a single hand.

    The other "easy" path to my overly generalized conclusion is simple productivity experience. Our office can very easily document the difference in productivity as we transitioned from 9650 to Z to Q and back to 9930/9650. We also have data through direct comparison with a competitor that never abandoned their 9650s. Despite the older OS in the legacy devices, productivity data speak for themselves. Most in our office state that they feel less exhausted by shift change (we are 24/7 operation) now that we've reverted to legacy. Touch demands more user attention than trackpad, in our collaborated opinion.

    Reliability and predictability of the devices' reactions to input are another significant superiority of track. It's simply less exhausting to assure the device is actually doing, or not doing, the will of the user. I'm sure it depends on how mission critical the end result is for the individual user. Mistakes made on touch devices have lost us customers. Never a problem with the track devices.

    We've joked that BB should use our office to torture test their devices. NO doubt our usage is extreme but if we give up after a year, the general population must eventually see the same thing. It will just take longer. It will be a long while before i can convince anyone in my crew to abandon track.

    Edit: The deal seal for me was when one of my crew asked: "...what can touch do that track can't?" ???
    I'll never buy another BlackBerry with the track pad. Had 50% failure rate on six devices used in the family with them, making the devices difficult to use.

    Posted via CB10
    04-23-14 10:13 AM
  24. Lefty724's Avatar
    Well, it's going to be worth the wait imo.

    I've been using my 9900 as a backup and can't believe how much I use/need the tool belt, especially the track pad!

    The 9900 is a backup right now, but might come to the front of the pack while the Q10 gets to be the backup.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    04-23-14 10:28 AM
  25. 2c's Avatar
    that looks very purty tho.
    04-23-14 10:42 AM
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