[Bluenoser63]

So a Q30 without tool-belt and with larger than 3.5" screen could be possible sooner than a Classic that requires a rebuild OS in that logic?

Yes

[kbz1960]

I think it is unfair to start the release cycle clock for the Classic from the launch of the Q10. The Classic was clearly created by Chen after he became CEO and was asking enterprise customers what they wanted.

I have seen no evidence that the Classic was in development prior to Chen taking over.

To put this in perspective, the Foxconn deal was already in negotiations, Chen just wrapped them up and put the Z3 on the quick release road map. It uses existing hardware and does not require almost any OS modifications. Much easier to have a quick roll out of the Z3, but it can't be rushed otherwise sales will suffer if the release is not coordinated and the experience is poor.

The Classic requires a much larger OS overhaul to give the tool belt value. The biggest issue I see is making the menu button due something useful throughout the OS and apps. Also making the back button work as expected from BlackBerry OS7 (since that is where the Classic users will be coming from).

The Classic also CANNOT launch with any bugs or hardware issues. It must go through full testing and CANNOT be launched prematurely. This is a workhorse device for enterprise. They aren't going to tolerate a device with problems, they want to purchase Classics for 2+ year deployments.

Posted via CB10

Would be a first or how long can they wait for it to be perfect? A year?

[Bluenoser63]

People say things like "The problem with the Q20 / Classic is that they have to make major modifications to BB10 for it."

Yet, these same people are too completely terrified to even TRY to describe what "major modifications" are required.

It irritates me, because ALMOST NO MODIFICATIONS WILL BE REQUIRED. ALMOST NONE. And, any that ARE made will be "invisible" to those on devices that don't have the Belt.

Looks like someone has no experience or knowledge about how software works. There are many things that need to be defined and designed with the navigation and function of the tool belt. Events have to be defined and then programmed into the OS. Software then needs to be changed to look for those events. Developer tools have to be be redesigned and then released so developers can change their software to deal with those events. All this takes time to develop, test and implement.

Just one little example that would have a large impact. In the 9900, you have the ability to move from field to field with the trackpad. That does not exist and will have to be developed. A driver needs to be designed for the trackpad. That driver needs to do multiple things and will need to send events to the OS/GUI. Those events need to be defined and then added to every control in the UI. This is not a simple task as there is ZERO functionality to support this in the current OS. It will be all new. So please don't try to minimize the changes that need to be done when you don't have any clue to them.

[dejanh]

Sorry but your statement is false and I'll tell you why.

I too have a Q10 and it will perform tasks or actions faster when using the physical keys than my Z10 and now Z30. I have all 3 phones and I know what the Q10 does better than a Z30 and vice versa. The OS has provisioning for physical key input already and it will always be more responsive because its input is individual rather than combined with the screen input and how it's data is prioritized.

If anything, the belt will only enhance the fine tuning aspects of the OS such as touching the trackpad to quickly bring up a cursor to select point of selection or entry point for text. The current method of interaction from the Q10 is superior but I can see where it can see an improvement. However they still need to make the OS faster at responding to when you want to put the cursor somewhere specifically, or getting the edit circle to appear. Q20 will be a hit in its intended marketplace.

Z30 is the most superior touch device though. Z10 is the iPhone killer with its size and one handed use. People really don't know how amazing BlackBerry is today.

Yeah, real iPhone killer. It killed alright, BlackBerry's bottom line that is...

Posted via CB10

[joe56984]

I wonder which carriers in the US will pick this up. Sprint didn't release the Z10, only the Q10. Verizon was the only carrier to pick up the Z30.

[Qurve]

I'd love it if the trackpad is a virtual one that one can turn off! after all I guess they might want to cater for both current BBOS users and Q10 owners with the Classic!

CB10 + my Q2^3+2

[slagman5]

This phone is not for consumers it is for thr regulated industries. The new flagship phone is supposed to be the one that has the BlackBerry people excited. I don't see Chen and company being excited by a phone called the classic.

Posted via CB10

??? Seriously? The guy gets absolutely giddy when talking about the Classic...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[slagman5]

Might be time to leave BlackBerry. Not liking them doing the same old mistake over and over.

Sad....JC is producing a phone he wants and not what the BYOD folks want.



Posted via Verizon Z10 - OS v10.1.2.2174

Uh, actually he's giving more options. The all-touch phones that all of the cool people must have will still be released so relax...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[slagman5]

The 'classic' may or may not woo back corporate professionals, but I fear BlackBerry is going to be an even more niche player in an already niche area here with this revamped 'classic'. Nothing I see to really get excited about. Keyboard phones are dead to the mass market, and only the die hard BlackBerry fans seem to want these dinosaur phones around still.

Careful! Z10 in action!

There's nothing wrong with being a niche player as long as their company is structured for being a niche player... Right now they are losing money because they are selling X amount of phones while their company is structured to sell Y amount of phones. That's why even here on CB the layoffs are seen as good for the company. They are not good for the individuals losing their jobs, but it is essential to downsize the company to match the volume. Just remember that when BB was #1 in smartphones, they were actually still selling fewer total phones but still making a profit...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[slagman5]

I'm certainly not waiting for it. I have always preferred the all-touch phones (bigger screen estate and all), never really was the keyboard kinda guy. So Z30 here i come.

Posted via CB10 using my Gorgeous Z10

So interesting... Enjoy it.

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[slagman5]

You are right, it will still be too complicated for them

Posted via CB10

Yah, all of those nitwits that want the tool belt. I can't believe some people are dumb enough to not have the exact same opinions as you...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[slagman5]

It's a too little to late phone, released yet again late. Sure it will appeal to those stuck in the past from os7. But in no way is this phone going to turn things around.

The amount this will sell it's not going to generate positive cash flow.

When a company is well behind any product cycles it slides further and further into nothingness.

A time machine going back to cater to the old os7 users is the final death sentence. I look at it as catering to VHS users. Eventually that market all but dried up.

Much will be the fate of releasing yet another outdated flop phone. Catering to the past era..

You're not innovating going backwards like blackberry is. They're simply throwing things out there hoping something sticks!

All of this blah blah blah (it's "too" btw) and you don't seem to understand this phone is IN ADDITION to the all-touch and regular qwerty phones that they're already making. Those should "cater" to the general public under you logic (how have that been working out?). You act like releasing another option would somehow make their situation any worse...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[waterfrontmgmt]

I would not expect any more OS7 phones to be released. Ever.

I still do not see BB10 mentioned anywhere near the 'Classic' name. I have a pretty big suspicion, that this is going to be old system device (but then - why wait till November?).

Posted via CB10

[idssteve]

BB10 already fully and proficiently supports navigation using a bluetooth/usb mouse with a cursor in case many didn't realise. Adding track pad controls wouldn't really be any challenge since it can function in exactly the same manner. They might add some stuff but it's not like they would have to start from scratch to allow track pad control. I can see the track pad being very useful in situations where the device is hooked up to a projector, monitor or TV via HDMI or Miracast and the device can be easily used as a mini desktop/laptop replacement without the need for an additional mouse / keyboard. That would be one advantage real-world advantage over the touchscreen only paradigm because using a touchscreen only to control mirrored content while not looking at the touchscreen is difficult to near impossible to do proficiently.

Posted via CB10

I was not aware that BB10 supported bluetooth/usb mouse with a cursor. I'll have to dig out my Q and try that. If so, that should make trackpad implementation at least a little simpler than the "Manhattan Project" development nightmare some of the trolls around here are touting.

[Orange UK]

Classic ? So given its name, by nature it SHOULD have BIS!

[anon(5828343)]

Z10 is the iPhone killer with its size and one handed use. People really don't know how amazing BlackBerry is today.

Given the amount BBRY has already written down because of the disaster that is the Z10, it's probably a little more accurate to call the Z10 the BB-killer rather than the iPhone killer.

[sixpacker]

I think it is unfair to start the release cycle clock for the Classic from the launch of the Q10. The Classic was clearly created by Chen after he became CEO and was asking enterprise customers what they wanted.

I have seen no evidence that the Classic was in development prior to Chen taking over.

To put this in perspective, the Foxconn deal was already in negotiations, Chen just wrapped them up and put the Z3 on the quick release road map. It uses existing hardware and does not require almost any OS modifications. Much easier to have a quick roll out of the Z3, but it can't be rushed otherwise sales will suffer if the release is not coordinated and the experience is poor.

The Classic requires a much larger OS overhaul to give the tool belt value. The biggest issue I see is making the menu button due something useful throughout the OS and apps. Also making the back button work as expected from BlackBerry OS7 (since that is where the Classic users will be coming from).

The Classic also CANNOT launch with any bugs or hardware issues. It must go through full testing and CANNOT be launched prematurely. This is a workhorse device for enterprise. They aren't going to tolerate a device with problems, they want to purchase Classics for 2+ year deployments.

Posted via CB10

Given the number of key resignations I suspect the classic idea wasn't well received by Senior bb10 developers (as it runs against many of the main design principles). This is truly chens baby. Personally I find it naive and delusional, but time will tell.

[Orange UK]

BB10 on a higher spec'd BOLD - it better have a UMA chip (no poor wifi calling app BB!) and BIS availability as option.

Because BIS and UMA really took Blackberry above anyone else, then the started shaving all the goodness away, if the Classic really is 'BB classic' BBOS or BB10 it best have all the greatness of secure connectivity everywhere at affordable data costs - the networks under BB10 have a licence to rape end users bank accounts for data.

Chen if you get Classic right, BB will prevail !

[Xadion]

I really hope that the delay, as many have stated is to get the UI updated and working well with having physical buttons. Coming from WebOS land- having a home button to equate to the swipe up is really useful- physical buttons always-ALWAYS provide a better responce than virtual or even captawhatever I cant spell... you know.

the geastures should remain, but pressing on the home/main/scroll button should minimize and take me to the window/tile view- I hope that they reconsider and take this chance to move back to a webos/playbook card style view and multi-tasking.

the hub is nice, but really annoying and it follows a completely different flow and geasture navigation to the rest of the os... imo it should be removed and made into a better toast notification system- but allow the actual full use of the apps to be like all others etc.

I will most likely get a Q10 now on verizon edge and pay the difference of 50% owed come the release of the classic... I do not foresee any android or iphone 6 wooing me...

[kbz1960]

BB10 on a higher spec'd BOLD - it better have a UMA chip (no poor wifi calling app BB!) and BIS availability as option.

Because BIS and UMA really took Blackberry above anyone else, then the started shaving all the goodness away, if the Classic really is 'BB classic' BBOS or BB10 it best have all the greatness of secure connectivity everywhere at affordable data costs - the networks under BB10 have a licence to rape end users bank accounts for data.

Chen if you get Classic right, BB will prevail !

When I see thousands of members posting they want this then I'll believe they might be on track. With only a handful or even hundreds then not so much. BBRY couldn't pay me to go back to BIS unless they find a way for it to not be a bottleneck and restrict file sizes to nothing.

[anon(5818411)]

Yah, all of those nitwits that want the tool belt. I can't believe some people are dumb enough to not have the exact same opinions as you...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

wasn't calling people on BBOS7 dumb..
It's just that BBOS7 was so easy to use and why give up it just for the trackpad if they are still hanging on to their phones. Obviously they don`t care about the apps.

People that use BBOS7 still (like my dad which is an example of a big enterprise person):
1. don't care about anything that the new BB10/android/apple which is the reason why they are still hanging onto their phone.
2. they love how easy it is
3. a lot of little features makes it superior to them BB10 with 10.2.1 starting getting a few but BB10 is still missing a lot of the key features.
4. BIS - my dad only uses linkedin, facebook, bbm. He doesn't want to go buy data
5. buying BBOS7 is dirt cheap now especially for developing countries, BIS overlaps with this as well

If BB10 opened up the theme API they can make it like Playbook OS for the BBOS7/PBOS theme. Horizontal active frames like I said at the end of last page. This can help change the look. Being able to activate a virtual trackpad (ALL of BELT) which works exactly the same would help. Try it yourself http://appworld.blackberry.com/webst...ode=US&lang=en

The trackpad isn't the only reason why people haven't upgraded yet, if you think that then you need to open your eyes

[idssteve]

When I see thousands of members posting they want this then I'll believe they might be on track. With only a handful or even hundreds then not so much. BBRY couldn't pay me to go back to BIS unless they find a way for it to not be a bottleneck and restrict file sizes to nothing.

You wont see thousands of CrackBerry members openly supporting non-touch directions. They've been flamed into the closet, or out in the cold, by the condescendingly belligerent i-touch crowd. Out of 26 LOYAL BB users in my office, i am the ONLY one that will bother posting in these forums. AND you'll ONLY find me posting about trackpad devices. All 26 of us were once very active accessory customers at CrackBerry back when we were using the non-touch 9650. Those were great days at CB when you could come here and collaborate on fixing problems and improving productivity. Several out of my office made the mistake of just ASKING how to turn off the fricking touch digitizer on their 9930s. The unhelpful, condescending, and downright abusive responses chased those members so far into the closet they STILL leave all posting at this site to just me. I'm the only one who continues purchasing accessories from CB.

Us trackpad nuts have been waiting 3 years for a new model from RIM and we still get utterly irrational resistance from trolls here in our own little q20 corner of CB. The Z's failure is not OUR fault!! If the Z hasn't drawn iPhone kids into BlackBerry by now, after neglecting legacy for 3 yrs, it isn't going to happen. Sorry. RIM lost that battle with the ill fated Storm and the Z has failed to recover that ground. RIM is bleeding. The only thing left for RIM is the niche market.

[RyanGermann]

Looks like someone has no experience or knowledge about how software works.

Don't feel bad, I'll explain it to you.

There are many things that need to be defined and designed with the navigation and function of the tool belt.

You are aware that a trackpad is a mouse, a keyboard is a keyboard, a back button can be like a "left to right Swipe", and a menu button can be like a "swipe from the bezel down", all of which are already supported... long press on the trackpad performs a drag instead of a click, second click ends the drag action.

Events have to be defined and then programmed into the OS. Software then needs to be changed to look for those events.

You can add event handlers to Web pages... you make it sound like this is months of development to add a condition where a button press is detected and the "bezel.swipeUpFromBottom" event is called. This isn't rocket science.

Developer tools have to be be redesigned and then released so developers can change their software to deal with those events. All this takes time to develop, test and implement.

Everything new needs to be tested. Even you are just saying "stuff has to happen" but not saying what stuff. Tell me how hard it would be to treat the traditional "BlackBerry Key" as a "Swipe down from top bezel" or "Swipe up from Bottom Bezel" and I bet you're way overthinking it.

Just one little example that would have a large impact.

Only in the limited imagination of someone who can't implement an elegantly simple solution.

In the 9900, you have the ability to move from field to field with the trackpad.

...but on BB10, the trackpad would be a mouse with a pointer and everything, you click in the field you want to access. Simple. Why are you assuming that a total remake of the BBOS UX on BB10 is what is required to make BBOS7 users happy with having the Belt on the device?

You should look at this:

That does not exist and will have to be developed. A driver needs to be designed for the trackpad.

No it doesn't. It could even be bluetooth, and BlackBerry knows how to build devices with the trackpad and belt. If it was samsung trying to do it and get it working in Android, I'd say they'd have their work cut out for them.

That driver needs to do multiple things and will need to send events to the OS/GUI.

No it doesn't, because mouse and keyboard is already fully supported in BB10 PORTRAIT... if anything the problem is that landscape mode isn't great, but that's a) a problem with BB10 generally and b) the "Classic" is a "portrait only" device. Getting proper full landscape mode support into BB10 is a vital development priority in my opinion, but not directly impactful on "Toolbelt integration". Only the actions of the Call Start, Menu, Back and Call End buttons are an issue, and they just need to be mapped to existing gestures, rather than implementing a whole new "event model" for those buttons. Simple. Maybe now how you'd design it, but that's probably best left to BB designers anyway.

Those events need to be defined and then added to every control in the UI.

Again, no they don't.

This is not a simple task as there is ZERO functionality to support this in the current OS.

A) that's incorrect, and B) obviously not the way YOU'D do it.

It will be all new.

No, it won't.

So please don't try to minimize the changes that need to be done when you don't have any clue to them.

Well, I reserve the right to minimize them if you're going to go out of your way to maximize them.

[Pilchard]

No it was always coming in the fall. The problem with the Q20 / Classic is that they have to make major modifications to BB10 for it. BB10 was built from the ground up as a gesture based OS, and now they are adding a trackpad and menu button to it. Two things that it was never designed for

Posted via CB10

Why does Blackberry say "second half of the year" when it always means "November/December when we have missed Christmas marketing plans?"

[Tim Heard]

Hopefully BlackBerry is following the Montgomery Scott approach to setting expectations:

"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Relics (TV Episode 1992) - Quotes - IMDb