[idssteve]

For all the threads with comments about woven glass vs a leather back similar to Bold vs plastic backing vs _ _ _ _, I've yet to learn much of anything but opinion what some random user wants to see.

I don't come to these forums to hear an opinion, but to learn something so I can make my own informed opinion to inform my purchasing decision. I don't know the first thing about woven glass, but I wish someone who knew about manufacturing processes and materials to pitch in some thoughts around the various backing materials Blackberry has used in its devices from the Bold and after, and what could inform Blackberry's decision to use/not use woven glass or some other material in the Q20/Classic.

Like you, I too am no more informed about the backing of the phone. All I hear are opinions when most people are asking for factual explanations to teach them something. There is really a dearth of useful information on this topic so far. Can ANYONE provide a good explanation?

I'll venture a couple observations. The stronger a material is, the thinner it can be. Thinness isn't a concern for me but someone at BB obviously values it. Woven fiber glass is notoriously strong.

The other observation parallels a comment in an early 9900 review... Despite the "shiny" appearance of the 9900's back, fingers seem to "stick" pretty reliably to it, assisting reliable grasp. Not sure what friction property is in play but even after several years and exposure to various lubricants and solvents, the "shiny" back still finds some way to very reliably "stick" to my fingers. Just washed my hands and it still sticks. Is there some sophisticated micro porosity at play?

The cover of the aftermarket 3600mAh batt. i frequently use is probably polycarb and NOT glass reinforced so... no big deal to to me anyway. I, for one, LIKE the added thickness of the extended capacity battery & cover. Makes for more reliable grip.

Edit: One more thought... shiny is easily cleaned.

Edit2: The back of the device is what clients, management and vendors see when sitting across the conference table... impressions can turn into $$... just another thought...

[slagman5]

For all the threads with comments about woven glass vs a leather back similar to Bold vs plastic backing vs _ _ _ _, I've yet to learn much of anything but opinion what some random user wants to see.

I don't come to these forums to hear an opinion, but to learn something so I can make my own informed opinion to inform my purchasing decision. I don't know the first thing about woven glass, but I wish someone who knew about manufacturing processes and materials to pitch in some thoughts around the various backing materials Blackberry has used in its devices from the Bold and after, and what could inform Blackberry's decision to use/not use woven glass or some other material in the Q20/Classic.

Like you, I too am no more informed about the backing of the phone. All I hear are opinions when most people are asking for factual explanations to teach them something. There is really a dearth of useful information on this topic so far. Can ANYONE provide a good explanation?

I've actually explained all of the technical things about the materials, but this spork character just disregards all of that with "oh, that's mystical unicorn stuff, it's all plastic." So just scroll up to where you see him brushing it all off, and scroll a little more and you'll see my actual technical explanation of the difference in materials. My only big advice to you is to not listen to the person who has absolutely no clue about that topic yet has a strong opinion on it...

Edit: Instead of making you do the work to look for it, I'll sum it up. The glass weave material is basically fiberglass constructed in a similar way as carbon fiber. They can't use actual carbon fiber because that's been known to act as a faraday cage and will interfere with the phone's signal. So instead of weaving carbon strands, they weave glass strands. And despite what some people think, glass strands are stronger than steel of the same weight and thickness. So in essence when you make the cover with this material, it is stronger than if they had made it with the equivalent weight in steel. You get a thinner material than plastic that's much less fragile. I've seen phones with broken back covers. But those are plastic. You'll likely not find one of these glass weave backs broken unless someone really tried to break it... Combine that with a stainless steel frame/bezel and you have a very durable and well put together device.

?Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[spork141]

I've actually explained all of the technical things about the materials, but this spork character just disregards all of that with "oh, that's mystical unicorn stuff, it's all plastic." So just scroll up to where you see him brushing it all off, and scroll a little more and you'll see my actual technical explanation of the difference in materials. My only big advice to you is to not listen to the person who has absolutely no clue about that topic yet has a strong opinion on it...

Edit: Instead of making you do the work to look for it, I'll sum it up. The glass weave material is basically fiberglass constructed in a similar way as carbon fiber. They can't use actual carbon fiber because that's been known to act as a faraday cage and will interfere with the phone's signal. So instead of weaving carbon strands, they weave glass strands. And despite what some people think, glass strands are stronger than steel of the same weight and thickness. So in essence when you make the cover with this material, it is stronger than if they had made it with the equivalent weight in steel. You get a thinner material than plastic that's much less fragile. I've seen phones with broken back covers. But those are plastic. You'll likely not find one of these glass weave backs broken unless someone really tried to break it... Combine that with a stainless steel frame/bezel and you have a very durable and well put together device.

?Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

Wow slagman you really know how to get the mods attention in this thread.

To respond to your point. All the above is nice. So I'm not disregarding your input. I'm just saying it's not needed. You don't need stronger then steel materials on your phone. The reason most phones have nice materials is because it feels nice to the touch, and adds to the "premium feel" of the device. In the case of the glass weave. It's nice and I like the way it feels, but it doesn't feel much different than soft touch plastic.

Case in point. I'd be more horrified dropping an all aluminum and glass uni body phone on the concrete, than I would a plastic one. And if you don't think a phone could feel premium with soft touch plastic then go check out the moto x. Feels like butter. So stop with the nonsense about how durable these "premium materials" are and just judge the phone by how nice it feels in your hand. The rest is meaningless.

And I'm starting to think that the glass weave is made up of the hopes and dreams of starving children. I realized the unicorns sounded a bit ridiculous.


Posted via CB10

[th.1977]

Wow slagman you really know how to get the mods attention in this thread.

To respond to your point. All the above is nice. So I'm not disregarding your input. I'm just saying it's not needed. You don't need stronger then steel materials on your phone. The reason most phones have nice materials is because it feels nice to the touch, and adds to the "premium feel" of the device. In the case of the glass weave. It's nice and I like the way it feels, but it doesn't feel much different than soft touch plastic.

Case in point. I'd be more horrified dropping an all aluminum and glass uni body phone on the concrete, than I would a plastic one. And if you don't think a phone could feel premium with soft touch plastic then go check out the moto x. Feels like butter. So stop with the nonsense about how durable these "premium materials" are and just judge the phone by how nice it feels in your hand. The rest is meaningless.

And I'm starting to think that the glass weave is made up of the hopes and dreams of starving children. I realized the unicorns sounded a bit ridiculous.


Posted via CB10

i cant believe your actually arguing for cheap plastic material vs. premium materials like stainless steel and glass weave lol. just like tools u can buy the cheap socket of 1/10 of the price of snapon but there's no replacement for quality. both do the job but one does it better an last a lifetime. i would gladly pay more for quality hands down.
will the phone work fine without it well yes of course it will but thats not the point quality materials are just better, they feel better in the hand and are stronger. its not like blackberry is gonna pass the savings on to u the phone is still gonna be expensive likely 500.00 or better. if it gonna be plastic it better be 300 thats all i can say.

to sum it up plastic is crap and i dont wanna pay for a lexus and drive a hyundai. slagman is dead on with his responses. i agree with ur opening post but thats where it ends for me.

[spork141]

i cant believe your actually arguing for cheap plastic material vs. premium materials like stainless steel and glass weave lol. just like tools u can buy the cheap socket of 1/10 of the price of snapon but there's no replacement for quality. both do the job but one does it better an last a lifetime. i would gladly pay more for quality hands down.
will the phone work fine without it well yes of course it will but thats not the point quality materials are just better, they feel better in the hand and are stronger. its not like blackberry is gonna pass the savings on to u the phone is still gonna be expensive likely 500.00 or better. if it gonna be plastic it better be 300 thats all i can say.

to sum it up plastic is crap and i dont wanna pay for a lexus and drive a hyundai. slagman is dead on with his responses. i agree with ur opening post but thats where it ends for me.

You are late to the convo. I'm saying that in context of keeping the price down, soft touch plastic shouldn't really "cheapen" the device compared to glass weave. The glass weave was never some mystical material to begin with. It's nice l, and I prefer it, but it's not going to considerably change anyone's experience with the device. As slagman pointed out, it's supposedly as strong as an ox, but you don't need your phones battery door as strong as an ox.

Again I say this in context of the phones price being key to its success and the further production of phones on blackberry part. Produce a $299 - $349 off contract phone, and you can keep your glass weave forever.

Posted via CB10

[idssteve]

This seems the wrong thread for the discussion and I mostly use aftermarket battery covers and so have zero axe to grind here, but as an engineer let me clarify a point. "Stronger" materials would likely not be used to make a stronger device. They would be applied to make a THINNER device of the "same strength".

Thinner battery cover means thicker, higher capacity, battery. It also likely affords better heat dissipation during charge/discharge cycles. Likely affording slightly faster charge/discharge.

Whether possible advantages outweigh cost is an entirely seperate debate.

[Antton]

Use day after day 2 Blackberry devices: Q10 and Bold 9900. Blackberry Classic will definitely be the next one.

[slagman5]

i cant believe your actually arguing for cheap plastic material vs. premium materials like stainless steel and glass weave lol. just like tools u can buy the cheap socket of 1/10 of the price of snapon but there's no replacement for quality. both do the job but one does it better an last a lifetime. i would gladly pay more for quality hands down.
will the phone work fine without it well yes of course it will but thats not the point quality materials are just better, they feel better in the hand and are stronger. its not like blackberry is gonna pass the savings on to u the phone is still gonna be expensive likely 500.00 or better. if it gonna be plastic it better be 300 thats all i can say.

to sum it up plastic is crap and i dont wanna pay for a lexus and drive a hyundai. slagman is dead on with his responses. i agree with ur opening post but thats where it ends for me.

Don't even bother man. It's all just "mystical unicorn" stuff. All that "snapon" tools are all just the same metal, blah blah blah. Seriously, it's more head-ache than it's worth. I just reply to others now...

BTW almost all of my tools are Snap-On. I'm also a fan of Matco. :-)

?Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[slagman5]

I'd like to see more of this -- good debate about materials/workmanship/tools and less just making fun of each other. We can all learn a lot from you and slagman5 trading thoughts (even if you disagree) on build quality and materials. You both know more than me on the topic, and I'd imagine more than many other people here too.

Well, it might be a good idea to go back a few pages. I did simply state the facts and why the material is good. It's just frustrating when someone asks about it, you answer, in detail, and that person goes "oh, that's all mumbo jumbo, it's all plastic." Which is basically what happened... So sorry if I let my frustration show.

?Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[idssteve]

...
BTW almost all of my tools are Snap-On. I'm also a fan of Matco. :-)

?Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

LOL, I've long been partial to Williams for combination wrenches. SnapOn are TOL fine but their chrome wrenches are too slippery for oily hands, IMO. Craftsman ratchet cogs are comparatively weak and coarse but their single handed "feel" is unbeatable. SnapOn sockets are a little too thick to fit into tight spots sometimes, IMO. But, that's what they make bench grinders for... lol

The point relevant to this thread is that the tools you use are an expression of your commitment to your profession. When a mechanic rolls his SnapOn box over to your car, you can derive some comfort in his commitment to his profession. No doubt a talented enough mechanic can "get the job done" with Buffalo tools but... which would you bet your entire business and/or life on??

When sitting across the conference table with a potential client, the tools in your hand will make an impression. If that client is looking for the cheapest possible job, he might be impressed by a $10 phone in your hand. If he's observing for signs of commitment, a tool projecting your commitment level is "money in the bank". Under those conditions, the price of the device become very secondary.

Additionally, if you're SnapOn, or BlackBerry, the BEST advertisement you can have is the man holding the tool! I wish i could arrange to charge BBRY commissions for BB's clients, vendors and COMPETITORS have purchased after exposure to my crew and the tools they're committed to. LOL.

That said, we won't know for sure what kind of back will be on the Q20 "Classic" until we see. I, too, am hoping it, at minimum, telegraphs "commitment" to my profession.

[idssteve]

I'd like to see more of this -- good debate about materials/workmanship/tools and less just making fun of each other. We can all learn a lot from you and slagman5 trading thoughts (even if you disagree) on build quality and materials. You both know more than me on the topic, and I'd imagine more than many other people here too.

Well, i've never designed a phone. What little i know about LiPo batteries causes me to wonder about the wisdom of burying the battery down inside the device, Z30 style, where heat dissipation capacity is limited. Thanks to the built in protective circuitry, I wouldn't necessarily worry about "overheating" the thing but that protective circuitry might inhibit charging as the LiPo heats up. Possibly prolonging charge times. ?? Positioning the batt near the outside surface of the device helps assure cooling.

If that outer surface happens to be a cover, thinner covers will aid cooling. Like I said before, making the cover thin requires utilizing "stronger" materials in order to achieve the same structural design criteria. "Strength", usually referring to yield strength gets really tricky with plastic materials. Yield, representing plastic deformation. More relevant to the battery cover on the 9900 might be referred to as "stiffness", defined by Young's modulus. The 9900's battery cover must be rigid enough to keep retaining cogs engaged while allowing enough "springiness" so that a thumb nail can flex and release the cover. To this end, Glass Fiber Reinforced Polymers are just about as good as it gets for making a thin, thermally conductive, cover while satisfying minimum structural criteria. Young's modulus for GFRP ranges about 20x that of Polycarbonate. (about 40 GPa vs 2GPa) It's thermal conductivity is also a good 5x that of Polycarb. (about 1W/mK vs .2W/mK). Rough numbers.

I can visualize quite a few reasons for using other materials. Cost of production being a big one, but GFRP would rate highly on my list if asked to design the 9900's batt cover.

[spork141]

Well, it might be a good idea to go back a few pages. I did simply state the facts and why the material is good. It's just frustrating when someone asks about it, you answer, in detail, and that person goes "oh, that's all mumbo jumbo, it's all plastic." Which is basically what happened... So sorry if I let my frustration show.

?Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

Slagman. Seriously. I know you really wanna get caught up in the unicorns and the dumb comments I make in an attempt to belittle the "glass weave" and not you of course. But I don't know how we keep failing to see eye to eye. So I'll make another tame and short attempt to squash this.

In short

Glass weave is better and stronger than soft touch plastic, but not a necessity for the user experience of this particular device. If a huge part of the success of this phone is based on price, and the ongoing success of blackberry benefits us all, then soft touch plastic should more than do the job in this case. I want blackberry to succeed, so one day they can make the premium device we all want, but they can't do that unless the holdouts start seeing the bigger picture, and stop obsessing over the minutia, like how premium of a material their battery doors are made of.

Is that fair enough of a statement? Can we at least see eye to eye on that?

Posted via CB10

[slagman5]

Slagman. Seriously. I know you really wanna get caught up in the unicorns and the dumb comments I make in an attempt to belittle the "glass weave" and not you of course. But I don't know how we keep failing to see eye to eye. So I'll make another tame and short attempt to squash this.

In short

Glass weave is better and stronger than soft touch plastic, but not a necessity for the user experience of this particular device. If a huge part of the success of this phone is based on price, and the ongoing success of blackberry benefits us all, then soft touch plastic should more than do the job in this case. I want blackberry to succeed, so one day they can make the premium device we all want, but they can't do that unless the holdouts start seeing the bigger picture, and stop obsessing over the minutia, like how premium of a material their battery doors are made of.

Is that fair enough of a statement? Can we at least see eye to eye on that?

Posted via CB10

And that's your opinion. Thanks for sharing, it was very interesting.

?Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[jayemmbee]

Aaaalllllllll those people who have been griping and complaining about not having a toolbelt and it's accompanying buttons on a BB10 phone, and citing that as the reason they're still on BBOS... best be gettin ready to switch. BlackBerry and John Chen, CEO.. they made a device just for you. Don't let it all be for nothing lol. Seriously though.

+-keystroke queen-+

I think it was the vocal ppl who said this was their reasons, if they still don't switch after getting their wish then they just like to belly ache

Posted via CB10

[DJ BigToe]

I think it was the vocal ppl who said this was their reasons, if they still don't switch after getting their wish then they just like to belly ache

Posted via CB10

My wish is for a Passport with a toolbelt, if they don't make that, wel... Anything less than passport specs on a new phone from BlackBerry is pointless.

[dredewten85]

Interesting thread. Yes people should jump on the classic ship because its looking to be a great phone. However if you like your bbos phone and it is the perfect phone for you then there is no pressure to jump to the classic. I agree with the op about waiting for the perfect device because more than likely its never going to come, sometimes sacrifices have to be made even though we do not like it. For example I know me and Steve had a talk in another thread about the fixed battery and he explained why it was important to him and almost a deal breaker. However after a while we started talking about usb chargers and how he might have some custom made chargers for the phone. Guess to sum it up if your 9900 or whatever is already perfect for you the individual then keep it, however if you are holding out for little things that might not ever come at least try the classic out. You might find a new feature that outweighs the one you lost. All this is just my two cents.

[ChainPunch]

The best smartphone I had was the Blackberry Tour, but I had to down grade to a curve because of us cellular not having any other blackberry keyboard options at the time my Tour failed. The Classic is going to be an upgrade for me in every aspect, except for not having a removable battery. However, I still going for the classic because I need an upgrade and I just hope that my curve hold up in the meantime.

[world traveler and former ceo]

I can understand the bold 9900 holdouts.. trust me.. i am as die hard a bold 9900 person.. love the keyboard and efficiency of messaging, calling. And Contacts...

Had mine stolen two years ago... otherwise I would still be using it, paired with iPhone 5 likely...

Bold 9900.... I went z10, then q10 (hugely disappointed by that model...), now z30 (all day driver) + iPhone 5...

... but the Passport and classic are two awesome phones that should be seriously embraced... they are both fantastic phones... finally.

I also like that you can still buy bold 9900 on shop BlackBerry for $400... personally, I would like blackberry to charge $690 for new bold 9900!! ... so, those that really still want to buy... should pay a premium for legacy .. BlackBerry needs to profit accordingly...et demand drive it. Thus is business after all.

Yes.. this is coming from a die hard bold 9900 guy!!!...

Can't turn back the clock.... its not 2009.... Blackberry needs to seriously innovate and attract new customers... lots of them!!! ... to move ahead ... as well as to continue to retain loyal ones like me and you.

Classic looks awesome and I while I love the new phone I will be getting the Passport day One!! It has it all, IMO.

... and I'll be "retiring" the z10,z30, q10 (giving them to nieces etc...)....none of them really met my desires for an amazing keyboard experience like the bold 9900.... but they had many strengths in other ways...the new os is finally shaping up nicely....

Chen nailed it with passport and Classic... for me... a die hard bold, 9900 guy.

Passport it is! ....


Bold 9900 ---->>>>>> passport and classic......



Posted via CB10

[idssteve]

I can understand the bold 9900 holdouts.. trust me.. i am as die hard a bold 9900 person.. love the keyboard and efficiency of messaging, calling. And Contacts...

Had mine stolen two years ago... otherwise I would still be using it, paired with iPhone 5 likely...

Bold 9900.... I went z10, then q10 (hugely disappointed by that model...), now z30 (all day driver) + iPhone 5...

... but the Passport and classic are two awesome phones that should be seriously embraced... they are both fantastic phones... finally.

I also like that you can still buy bold 9900 on shop BlackBerry for $400... personally, I would like blackberry to charge $690 for new bold 9900!! ... so, those that really still want to buy... should pay a premium for legacy .. BlackBerry needs to profit accordingly...et demand drive it. Thus is business after all.

Yes.. this is coming from a die hard bold 9900 guy!!!...

Can't turn back the clock.... its not 2009.... Blackberry needs to seriously innovate and attract new customers... lots of them!!! ... to move ahead ... as well as to continue to retain loyal ones like me and you.

Classic looks awesome and I while I love the new phone I will be getting the Passport day One!! It has it all, IMO.

... and I'll be "retiring" the z10,z30, q10 (giving them to nieces etc...)....none of them really met my desires for an amazing keyboard experience like the bold 9900.... but they had many strengths in other ways...the new os is finally shaping up nicely....

Chen nailed it with passport and Classic... for me... a die hard bold, 9900 guy.

Passport it is! ....


Bold 9900 ---->>>>>> passport and classic......



Posted via CB10

+1 for $690 9900! My Co would pretty readily justify twice that. At least until the Q20 "Classic" is available.

[MaxxxBerry23]

I went z10, then q10 (hugely disappointed by that model...)

Interesting points of view, but why have you been so disappointed by the Q?

[world traveler and former ceo]

Maxxberry23: i did not like the keyboard on the q10 ..Wanted the bold 9900 keyboard!!! .. keys too close together..awful for me.., .. just a big disappointment coming from bold 9900 for me

Took them a while to get it right, but i think the Classic is the true successor to the iconic Bold 9900.... awesome keyboard and bigger screen... etc....


Many will like the q10 form factor and keyboard... i could not type using that keyboard...


Posted via CB10

[idssteve]

I also went from 99 to Z10 for 9 months to Q10 for three months and back to 99. My Q is still activated providing backup and some added functionality but except rare occasions the 99 is the one I grab and keep in hand. Q10's keyboard is the second best I've ever used but it's a pretty distant second behind 99's superb kb. Like anything, its a matter of what an individual does with it. If I'd never been spoiled by 99 the Q10's kb would be tops, IMO.

Likewise, if I'd never been spoiled by the toolbelt, OR if the Q10 had been fitted with one, I'd still be using my Q. As with 25 coworkers in my office. I was the last Q holdout after they'd migrated back to the 99 on their own dime! Restoration of productivity and ZERO hang up failures in 6+ months since are well quantified and speek for themselves.

Now, the Q20 "Classic" promises to restore tool belt and hopefully improve on the Q10's "second best" kb! A wonderful development many of us have long "wished" for! . Just never occured to us that we needed to include the swappable battery in that wish list. Go figure...

[th.1977]

[QUOTE=idssteve;1086185

Now, the Q20 "Classic" promises to restore tool belt and hopefully improve on the Q10's "second best" kb! A wonderful development many of us have long "wished" for! . Just never occured to us that we needed to include the swappable battery in that wish list. Go figure...[/QUOTE]
ya no one thought bby would ever take that feature out. if i had known
i would have added to my wish list when complaining about not having a phone with a toolbelt.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

[Dsrtwlf]

Mtaylor I do agree with you. I am a very new on CB. I have used Blackberry awhile, starting with the Curve and then the Bold. Now I am on the Q10 phone, love them. However, I have had this phone for over a year, and feel that I have learned more in a couple week on CB. However, I look at the posts in the hopes of gaining more knowledge with the device that I have at the time. Seeing the posts of people bashing others is hard, since these forums should be of people helping others. As we all know, to each's own right? People make their choices, their choice. So no one should be trying to force their own choice onto others. My opinion certainly.

[NecroSemen]

I don't care if it's because of a toolbelt, removable battery, programmable hot keys, charging contacts, or some silly bbos feature that hasn't been ported over. If the classic doesn't sell, you won't see another blackberry of this nature. It's time to accept change and get on the right side. Holding on to your ancient phone because some granular feature hadn't made its way to bb10 hardware yet is just as bad for BlackBerry as you getting an iphone or Android.

John Chen has brought you the toolbelt. Arguably a useless feature with how far touchscreen tech has come, but the BlackBerry community has seemed to embrace it anyway. This is where the divide has to end though.

This is as good as its going to get unless BlackBerry can prove that it can push hardware again. Time to shut up about all the little advantages charging contacts, or removable batteries bring, and move into reality. It's either the classic, or you will be getting the next iphone because this is as good as its gonna get if it doesn't sell.

Posted via CB10

Dude I would definitely get it if it had more powerful specs than my Q10 which sadly it doesn't

Posted via CB10 on my BlackBerry Q10