[spork141]

Thank you moderator. I am the op

Redlight "arguably" a useless feature is me saying that I understand there is a valid debate over it. I also stated a number if times that I welcome the toolbelt back.

Posted via CB10

[redlightblinking]

Thank you moderator. I am the op

Redlight "arguably" a useless feature is me saying that I understand there is a valid debate over it.

Yes, a valid debate about it's uselessness. Gotcha. Based on that logic you could say that there is a valid debate about the uselessness of BB10. That BB10 is "argueably useless". We can play semantics all night if you'd like.

Thank you moderator. I am the op

I also stated a number if times that I welcome the toolbelt back.

Posted via CB10

Strange, the moderator must have removed all references to it, because those words do not appear in any of your posts in this thread.

[Ecm]

Let's make this clear:
[WARN]
Debate the topic, not the poster![/WARN]

Elessar.cm / Moderator

[spork141]

So to be clear. While I don't see the toolbelt as being "necessary" it doesn't exactly bother me either. I mean there's some instances where I could find it useful for sure. Plus BlackBerry could do some cool stuff with it like an embedded fingerprint scanner to unlock the phone. Either way I think having it back might bring us together again. The toolbelt has been an area of much debate in the community and I hope the fact that it's coming back will rally us around the device.

So what I'm saying is the classic is shaping up to be the most bold like bb10 device yet and while it might not have every bell and whistle a bold owner would want, I think it'll prove more than enough of an upgrade for existing bbos to finally transition over to bb10.

I think it's important to the BlackBerry community, I think it's important to blackberry as a company, and I think if people continue to hold out for the perfect device we will never make it that far. There's not much time left.

Posted via CB10

[Mirk]

I agree with the OP to a certain degree; at least I certainly see where he is coming from.

Legacy users are going to have to face the fact that BBOS is not coming back. BlackBerry starting up and continuing development on BBOS would be literally insane, at least in my view. I would think it would almost certainly guarantee the demise of the company. They tried to continue down that path before they started to develop BB10, it was very clear where that was taking them.

Secondly, there is another reality that your BBOS phone is not going to last forever. It is unlikely that they will continue to make them forever and continue to support them forever. Eventually it won't hold a charge anymore, or the hardware will just stop working one day. Yes, I have seen it first hand, the phone will eventually die despite how durable they are and as unlikely as it seems. And, sure some of them may still last years or decades, but the day will come. Not to mention, although not in the foreseeable future, one day BIS might be shut down.

So, if the Classic doesn't take off and BlackBerry stops making the tool belt and your BBOS phone has finally seen its last days where does that leave you? Buying a different phone or rummaging through ads for a used BBOS phone? I've seen it first hand.

I mean, a friends beloved Bold 9900 crapped out a couple of weeks ago. Just suddenly out of the blue it would not turn on anymore, nothing, tried everything, just dead. He spent weeks tracking down a new one as it was a Wind phone and they are a little rarer. I can see the writing on the wall, if this phone breaks one day it's going to be even harder to find another one until the day he won't be able to.

Personally, it's not a huge concern of mine where you as a mobile phone consumer might end up, but I do think that some need to face the reality that BBOS is not coming back and that they will eventually have to move to a different phone. Mainly, I hope, primarily for my own sake, that BB is still making the phones I like. But, I'm also fairly certain that means people have to be buying into BB10.

[parryberry]

Im relatively new to BB but i think the way the general public is unaware of BB10 is similar to how BB users/fans are unaware of OS7.1. Its a huge improvement. My 9300 was a daily nightmare on OS6. My 9720 is a delight. Its smooth, hardly freezes and i have honestly only done about 3 battery pulls since i got it a year ago. We all know BB has found it difficult to lower the price point of BB10 devices. If things really take off for BB or if they decide to compete with the Nokia Ashas and basic Samsungs Alcatels etc of this world; Potentially BBOS could be used in devices cheaper than the Z3 (say $50-150). This is nothing unusual for a mobile phone brand. Nokia uses its old Symbian OS for cheaper devices and Samsung has Rex. A cheap BB OS7 device with BIS would probably sell very well in developing markets and act as a stepping stone to BB10. Just like Nokia uses the Asha range as an introduction to the Lumia range.

[spork141]

Im relatively new to BB but i think the way the general public is unaware of BB10 is similar to how BB users/fans are unaware of OS7.1. Its a huge improvement. My 9300 was a daily nightmare on OS6. My 9720 is a delight. Its smooth, hardly freezes and i have honestly only done about 3 battery pulls since i got it a year ago. We all know BB has found it difficult to lower the price point of BB10 devices. If things really take off for BB or if they decide to compete with the Nokia Ashas and basic Samsungs Alcatels etc of this world; Potentially BBOS could be used in devices cheaper than the Z3 (say $50-150). This is nothing unusual for a mobile phone brand. Nokia uses its old Symbian OS for cheaper devices and Samsung has Rex. A cheap BB OS7 device with BIS would probably sell very well in developing markets and act as a stepping stone to BB10. Just like Nokia uses the Asha range as an introduction to the Lumia range.

The shift to android in developing markets is more than underway. This might have been a great strategy 3 years ago. Too late now. Besides blackberry owns bb10. They can just make an ultra cheap BlackBerry 10 device. That's what they are kind of doing with z3.

Supporting both bbos and bb10 is likely very costly. BlackBerry should be focused on getting users away from bbos

Posted via CB10

[acovey]

The Q20 tools belt was conceived of because certain legacy users were reluctant to buy into Bb10 without something similar to what they already had with their legacy devices. It is literally a carrot they are dangling in front of reluctant BBOS users to come over to the 21st century. It's a gable, at best, since I don't think enough of those "customers" (read: hold-outs) will actually see the belt as enticing enough. I'm sure some will. But not enough to merit the time and economy spent on creating this dangling carrot.

Short Stories and Similar Submissions, a Channel dedicated to creative writing and constructive critique C003CC54C. Daily Old Radio Shows! The only Channel that actually offers you a source for entertainment. C0012487D

NO the Classic was created because Blackberry asked their Enterprise customers what they wanted. They did not ask their comsumer customers who some wanted iBerry's or 1/2 Berry's. I'm still waiting for a BB10 slider with a big screen, tool belt and the missing features of my old, old 9810. I hope the 99xx group buy lots of Classic's and maybe, just maybe I'll get my slider.

[DJ BigToe]

What about people that are still on contract? If BlackBerry wants to pay the full price of the new phone for me, then great, if not, they will just have to wait for the contract to run it's course. And if there is a better phone out at that time, then the classic will be passed over.

[MaxxxBerry23]

Sure, with the Classic BlackBerry is going the right way, but if they were listening to customers prior to releasing the Q10 or P'9982 we wouldn't even be here in the first place. The fact that there's no real Q10 successor sizewise means neglecting a big chunk of potential customers.
That said I'm really disappointed that there's no Khan with a toolbelt and Classic specs - Quite some folks will be seriously reconsidering buying the device. I enjoy using my P'9981 much more than the Q10, actually and sure will use it until it breaks, then get another one.

Secondly, there is another reality that your BBOS phone is not going to last forever. It is unlikely that they will continue to make them forever and continue to support them forever. Eventually it won't hold a charge anymore, or the hardware will just stop working one day.

Time to start buying them in advance then!

[1Criz]

Totally agree with you 100%.

Also from my understanding a HUGE percentage of Blackberry Service Subscribers are still on legacy devices. Therefore it is safe to assume alot of these legacy device users find BB10 QWERTY devices less productive for the simplistic of tasks which BB was renowned for. BB10 has brought the devices into a modern era, by providing better access to a number actions/services however at the expense of legacy services that some believe to great a sacrifice.

I assume, that they don't have time or patience to adapt their work flow and to abandon years of trained muscle memory.
And I don't blame them for that. P
Or they need to travel internationally and BBOS data compression is superior then.
However OP main point still stands. If you (BBOS lovers) don't embrace Classic, there will be no more of this type of device.

Posted via CB10

[Q10Bold]

I agree with OP. This might be our last chance. If the Classic and Passport fail there wont be any new phones from BlackBerry. Thats for sure. No Z50, no Z20 etc.

Posted via CB10

[greenberry666]

I agree with OP's main point (also I'm sure he was being tongue-in-cheek with his impassioned speech ).

If these new keyboard phones don't sell then there won't be any more BlackBerry keyboard phones. and not many other companies are making them.

[parthokarki]

Yep BB7 trackpad lovers have to get the classic seriously.

Posted via CB10

[kbz1960]

Totally agree with you 100%.

Also from my understanding a HUGE percentage of Blackberry Service Subscribers are still on legacy devices. Therefore it is safe to assume alot of these legacy device users find BB10 QWERTY devices less productive for the simplistic of tasks which BB was renowned for. BB10 has brought the devices into a modern era, by providing better access to a number actions/services however at the expense of legacy services that some believe to great a sacrifice.

A lot of users are still on it because of cheaper plans and BIS. I bet if they could get the same cost, BB10 uses more data, they would not be holding on to those old phones.

[early2bed]

Ask your customers what they want and give it to them a year later. That's a pretty flawed strategy. First of all, you are limiting yourself to your existing customer base. Then you perhaps have a third that really wanted the trackpad. Finally, it took you a year to get it to them.

Hey, everyone in this building, what do you want for lunch? OK, the consensus seems to be pizza. I'll be back in 3 hours with a bunch of them to sell to you.

[spork141]

NO the Classic was created because Blackberry asked their Enterprise customers what they wanted. They did not ask their comsumer customers who some wanted iBerry's or 1/2 Berry's. I'm still waiting for a BB10 slider with a big screen, tool belt and the missing features of my old, old 9810. I hope the 99xx group buy lots of Classic's and maybe, just maybe I'll get my slider.

Im waiting for the same exact phone BUT, ive upgraded to BB10 in the meantime and I'll be nabbing a classic. I don't ever expect the phone you and I want to come out, nor do I think Blackberry owes it to me. If this round of devices doesn't sell, the slider you describe will never come out.

[arlene_t]

I think toolbelt is still great. When ihad my curves and bolds I like using them. I just don't like touching the screen too much don't like the smudges and I have to keep wiping. I like the look of the 9900 than the classic though. Go Blackberry!

via Q10

[idssteve]

If a product line ceases to support itself, it should be cut. Only BB knows if OS7 is supporting itself. Given their market share position, it's easy to understand BB's reluctance to relinquish half of their sales. Even so, I haven't heard anyone say they're seriously waiting for OS7.2. I, myself, am patiently waiting for 10.3.1 + xxx to mature to a point where BB10 CAN truly replace OS7. It's close, getting closer. Shutting off OS7 before BB10 is mature enough to assume the role will do little to improve BB's image or market share, imo.

The Q20's configuration is likely "cast in stone" at this point. All anyone, including BBRY, can do from here is trust their market research. Assuming the target market is, in fact, "legacy users", and given the significance of this device to BBRY's device production future, one might expect the development team to have considered all possible physical characteristics of their most popular legacy device. Seems logical to me. But then, what do i know??

For more than a few of us, the Q10 was flawed by lack of toolbelt. It's keyboard and swappable battery at least provided two valued legacy features. Many love their Qs and happily left their legacy devices for it. Good for them. I love a lot about my Q10 but, because it left too much legacy behind, it must remain relegated to back up service for my 9900. Now, after patiently waiting 3 years since the last tool belt device, we finally get a toolbelt equipped Q20! Yay!! BUT, they just couldn't bring themselves to provide more than two legacy features in a single BB10 device. Now we get keyboard and tool belt but swappable battery is in question. Amazing. WHY, given the importance of this device's success, would BB even consider taking such a risk as abandoning the universal legacy (also z/q10) feature of swappable battery? There's another thread out there for discussing the swappable battery. My point is that DECISION represents a ridiculous risk, IMO. IF, that's what they do. We'll know when we know.

The bigger point is that if BBRY's survival ultimately depends on charity from me, they are simply not going to survive in an Appledroid world. I'll buy a Q20 but if it's battery is fixed, it will be relegated to in office service right next to the fixed battery PassPort and PlayBook on my desk. There WILL be a spare battery in my pocket for the device i leave the office with.

[spork141]

now we get keyboard and tool belt but swappable battery is in question. Amazing. WHY, given the importance of this device's success, would BB even consider taking such a risk as abandoning the universal legacy (also z/q10) feature of swappable battery?

This is the exact type of throught process that's infecting the forums. Why is it necessary for BlackBerry to product the 100% perfect phone for you to upgrade and adapt?

I don't know for sure why they chose to abandon the removable battery for the classic but I assume it had to do with cost/ value in some way. My assumption is that using the z30 internals for low cost implementation means they can't use a swappable battery since the z30 wasn't designed for one. Unfortunate for sure but a sacrifice made for the bigger picture.

Why can't you just get the phone and deal with it? Buy an extra charger or carry a battery pack around with you in your bag. I have that blackberry battery charger thing and it was cheap and great.

Like I said, you could wait for the perfect phone and os but if everyone refuses to upgrade and waits for it, it'll never come.

Posted via CB10

[spork141]

Just to clarify, I see that you already upgraded to a q10 so I guess you are not a holdout . It's the mindset that many share about their blackberrys that I'm questioning. The blackberry abandoned "me" their loyal fan, their paying customer,. Why did they forget "me" and my needs. I won't play along with their plans until they listen to "me"

Meanwhile in reality blackberry is really struggling and they need some serious pull in order to stay afloat. At this point I assume the decision making process has to be split between the die hards and the mass public.

It's tough for sure but I can understand it.

Posted via CB10

[slagman5]

Just to clarify, I see that you already upgraded to a q10 so I guess you are not a holdout . It's the mindset that many share about their blackberrys that I'm questioning. The blackberry abandoned "me" their loyal fan, their paying customer,. Why did they forget "me" and my needs. I won't play along with their plans until they listen to "me"

Meanwhile in reality blackberry is really struggling and they need some serious pull in order to stay afloat. At this point I assume the decision making process has to be split between the die hards and the mass public.

It's tough for sure but I can understand it.

Posted via CB10

What are you, a charity? I am using a BB, but if they stop releasing products with features I want, I'll stop buying them. Brand loyalty is downright STUPID. Get what suits you the best, that's it. Making compromise after compromise simply to help a brand doesn't make sense. Unless you work for them, know the CEO, or otherwise have some kind of relationship with them, why be loyal? What have they done for you? John Chen hasn't walked up to me to shake my hand and talked about his personal life with me, I have no reason to have an allegiance with him, I need a phone that offers me what I need for me to spend my hard-earned money on. I don't work my **** off to "donate" my money to some company just because. Sorry, if you feel the need to, great, I just don't understand it myself...

?Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[idssteve]

This is the exact type of throught process that's infecting the forums. Why is it necessary for BlackBerry to product the 100% perfect phone for you to upgrade and adapt?

I don't know for sure why they chose to abandon the removable battery for the classic but I assume it had to do with cost/ value in some way. My assumption is that using the z30 internals for low cost implementation means they can't use a swappable battery since the z30 wasn't designed for one. Unfortunate for sure but a sacrifice made for the bigger picture.

Why can't you just get the phone and deal with it? Buy an extra charger or carry a battery pack around with you in your bag. I have that blackberry battery charger thing and it was cheap and great.

Like I said, you could wait for the perfect phone and os but if everyone refuses to upgrade and waits for it, it'll never come.

Posted via CB10

Well, at the risk of getting "personal", it could be argued that the thought process that has infected the forums, and BBRY itself, seems to be that EVERYthing Apple does is right and EVERYthing BlackBerry did was wrong. If BB keeps imitating Apple, what motive would iPhone users have for moving to BB? Why not arrange for Apple to design, produce and re-brand with BlackBerry's name on it? Toolbelt and swappable batteries were once a positive differentiating characteristic. Differentiation can create market share of it's own.

I've been all over the fixed battery issue in other threads. Probably not the place, here. My point, however, is that IF the target market is legacy, how much legacy can you remove and still hit your target?

That's assuming the 20's batt will, in fact, be fixed. We'll know when we know. Like I said, i'll be buying a Q20. My company's policies are well thought out. Apparently better thought out than BBRY's, imo. We serve clients who's downtime can be many $K per hour. Our needs are our business and i really shouldn't need to explain but part of my problem is having convinced my management that Apple's devices weren't for us partly because of fixed batteries. Once again, should Q20 get "fixed", BB itself will have undercut my position.

In the end, this is a Q20 forum. It is oriented toward users, and future users, of Q20's. Once we have real facts on the device, my feelings on BB's choices will be mute. What can be done? I came back to these forums a few months ago to find shocking derision for Q20's toolbelt. Derision from at least a few who obviously had NO intention of ever owning the device. I pushed back against that derision and remain steadfast supporter of the toolbelt. Only BB can defend their other decisions.

[MaxxxBerry23]

What are you, a charity? I am using a BB, but if they stop releasing products with features I want, I'll stop buying them. Brand loyalty is downright STUPID. Get what suits you the best, that's it. Making compromise after compromise simply to help a brand doesn't make sense.

I bought many BlackBerry products because I want the brand to succeed. Because I like the company, agree with their values and how they make/made their products.

If another company like Samsung would release a well-built, feature rich Qwerty phone tomorrow, I wouldn't buy it because I disagree with the company's work ethics and strategic values.

That's how simple it is and why Brand Loyalty is a beautiful thing.



Posted via Q10 ?

[spork141]

Making compromise after compromise simply to help a brand doesn't make sense.

?Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

But it's not compromise after compromise. With the classic you'll get a much bigger screen and a bigger keyboard and a better battery we assume. In tradeoff you lose swappable battery. You only see "compromise" in that? The benefits don't factor in at all? For bbos folks I see a great upgrade in so so so much in hardware and software. I know the battery thing is a negative but to look passed all the good for that one thing?

Also, enough with the iPhone talk. Really. It's not even a comparison. If you want to see why people copy the iPhone look at the sales numbers. Everyone has gone the touch screen non removable battery route. Android and windows phone included. The z3 is likley BlackBerry only bb10 success and it doesn't have a removable battery. BlackBerry and iPhone don't need to be in the same convo anymore. It's not apple to apple (pun) in market, hardware, or software or anything. No matter how you feel about who does what better, blackberry just wants to make it through the next 2 years at this point, and making the best decisions to get there should be the only thing they are worried about.

Posted via CB10