[sergesc]

While I understand that if we are to believe RIM is catching up with the rest of the platforms, to me BB is different....I personally don't use the phone for gaming and heavy app use.....I use it for messaging,texting,emailing and productivity. I was actually thinking of trying the Thunderbolt until I started to think what is my primary purpose with this phone. It is not to play games and watch videos, it's for getting things done. I found that there are only 6-7 apps that I have used on a regular basis and I personally dont need all that space for applications. I want a phone that is responsive, intuitive and gets the job done. This is not an iPhone and I don't think RIM expects it to be. You have to ask yourself what do you want your phone to do. Hey maybe this phone is not for you. There are tons of other choices.

But we are looking at the platform as long-time BB users. We understand the limits of the phones, and what we want to do with them, and what to expect. If we look at it as an outsider, tempted to jump whichever platform the person is using to join the RIMpire, it is different. Consumers in general don't really know what to do with a smartphone in reality, other than what iOS and Android is pushing: applications, ****loads of applications, no matter what type, just applications (namely games).

We know that BB is arguably the worst platform for mobile gaming, hence we know we won't be doing so in our shiny new devices, but for the teenager that just got his first BB it won't be that obvious...

And for the ones that will tell me"if you want games, change platform", I can't. BBM is integral in my life, and e-mailing is extremely useful and easy, and I dislike those platforms. I'd love that my BB would just be what it has always been (my main communication tool), but I'd love to just get rid of this ****** iPhone. Well, I'm still sold, hurry up RIM, and give France some love!

[Nedved51]

Does anyone know what size that Rollercoaster Rush game is? And if it all gets installed into app memory or some onto SD card.

It seems like a fairly graphically intensive game (for BB's) so it might give a good idea of size and installation locations for these type of apps.

[johndoe086]

Those worried about apps memory please read link below:

http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...0-read-636746/

Memory won't be a problem.

[johndoe086]

Does anyone know what size that Rollercoaster Rush game is? And if it all gets installed into app memory or some onto SD card.

It seems like a fairly graphically intensive game (for BB's) so it might give a good idea of size and installation locations for these type of apps.

Installed on SD card, read link below.

http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...0-read-636746/

[sergesc]

From the user manual (filed in the FCC):

Textually: : TIPS; FREEING AND CONSERVING STORAGE SPACE

"try to maintain at least 400KB of available application storage on your Blackberry device. If you find that your device processes are unusually slow, try freeing storage space by deleting files that you don't need. Changing options for email messages, calendar entries, and media files might help you conserve storage space."

Full user manual found here: FCC filing

[greggebhardt]

Let the COMPLAINING BEGIN!

[Babybananaa]

How big are the blackberry apps including games? Roughly 1 - 10mb? I never have a blackberry so I don't know, however I hope it's an upgrade to my phone seeing as I have 17 installed apps and any more my phone goes REALLY slow and say not enough memory and have to delete my apps.

[nyc_rock]

The issue wont be of the performance of this device. What is depressing is that this clearly marks the end of the traditional BB OS. The fact that RIM didnt see the need to make this device even the slightest bit future proof is the sad part. Obviously, better, bigger, more powerful apps will not be developed for this platfom. The real question will be will this phone be upgradable to QNX or are all those jumping on board be in for a real disappointment when the Colt is released.

[Kansas City Mack]

The issue wont be of the performance of this device. What is depressing is that this clearly marks the end of the traditional BB OS. The fact that RIM didnt see the need to make this device even the slightest bit future proof is the sad part. Obviously, better, bigger, more powerful apps will not be developed for this platfom. The real question will be will this phone be upgradable to QNX or are all those jumping on board be in for a real disappointment when the Colt is released.

Yes but in all fairness, when has RIM ever "future proofed" their phones? I've had the 8330, 9530, and the 9650 and I wouldn't say that any of those were "future proofed". So for RIM, this is just business as usual.

[belfastdispatcher]

Can somebody check if application storage is the same as the device free memory? I'm wondering if emails/calendars etc get stored somewhere else now.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[nyc_rock]

Yes but in all fairness, when has RIM ever "future proofed" their phones? I've had the 8330, 9530, and the 9650 and I wouldn't say that any of those were "future proofed". So for RIM, this is just business as usual.

You are correct. I guess I was hoping for a bit more this time around.

[CrackersB21]

this is disappointing not completely sure but didn't the first torch have more application memory than this

[dkonigs]

It took me a long time to get to the end of this thread, since its just flying by. But the issue you're all complaining about is really a side-effect of the architecture of the BlackBerry phone platform (hardware and software), which has been pushed far beyond its initial design.

These phones basically have 3 kinds of "memory":
1) RAM (technically DRAM, only keeps contents when it has power)
2) "Application Memory" (what we're always complaining about)
3) Mass storage (built-in eMMC on some models, SDCards, etc.)

#2 and #3 are physically separate areas on the hardware, and you can see this if you search out block diagrams of older phones. Its not some arbitrary "partition" as some keep speculating. I also think the "Application Memory" is actually specialized high-speed flash, and costs a lot more than the rest of the flash used for mass storage.

While I don't know much about the internals of the BlackBerry OS, I strongly suspect that its actually running the app code directly out of the "Application Memory". (Instead of copying it into a RAM segment first, then executing out of RAM, like your PC does.) This design probably made sense in the early days of BlackBerry OS, since it allows more apps to be running simultaneously on a device with limited RAM. (Note that the real reason the original iPhone didn't multi-task was probably due to the fact that it didn't have a lot of RAM.) Today, an approach where apps run out of RAM (and are kept on the eMMC/SDCard) would probably make you happy. However, the eMMC/SDCard is probably too slow or simply too architecturally detached from the JVM to run apps directly from. There's also performance considerations, especially with big-and-slow flash, for which you'd implement caching with extra RAM.

Now, a modern OS would do all of this magic, and wouldn't have special "application memory". It would simply have a filesystem on flash, where each app can have its executable code and its data as separate files. None of these complaints would exist, assuming they solved performance problems with caching. This is how Android (Linux-based) and iOS (OSX-based) work.

But remember, the current BlackBerry OS was designed with very different hardware considerations in mind. To get where we want, they'd have to rewrite a lot of the core parts of the operating system. You know, the bits they probably didn't even touch when going from OS 4.0 to 7.0. (And probably were afraid to touch, for fear of breaking something.)

[chiefbroski]

I don't care what the free memory is as long as I can install lots of apps and not worry about a slowdown or getting "clocked". It would be nice if someone did a test. Like download as many apps as possible and see whats the limit. I know that with the Storm, anything over 10 and you're asking for trouble. Over 15 and your phone is finished. (depends on their size of course).

[nyc_rock]

I don't care what the free memory is as long as I can install lots of apps and not worry about a slowdown or getting "clocked". It would be nice if someone did a test. Like download as many apps as possible and see whats the limit. I know that with the Storm, anything over 10 and you're asking for trouble. Over 15 and your phone is finished. (depends on their size of course).

If thats all you care about you will be fine. The phone has 768 mb of RAM so roughly 570 megs are dedicated to keeping things running smoothly.

[danny31]

well i have the 9360, have shrunk out vad and what not etc etc and am now sat at 237mb free with FB,BBM,Maps,tapatalk, bebuzz and youtube installed...

[danimalchil]

I always thought that the RAM is for when you are running multiple programs/apps at the same time. 5 apps open and running at the same time will eat up more RAM than 1 app would.
So isn't the 188MB space available for multitasking, and not for storage? I'm not sure.

[nyc_rock]

I always thought that the RAM is for when you are running multiple programs/apps at the same time. 5 apps open and running at the same time will eat up more RAM than 1 app would.
So isn't the 188MB space available for multitasking, and not for storage? I'm not sure.

No, the 188 is for app storage. the remainder of the 768mb is for running the OS and applications.

[pcgizmo#IM]

this is disappointing not completely sure but didn't the first torch have more application memory than this

I'd like to say I'm surprised, but I'd only be lying to myself.

[JasW]

There's RAM where the OS and apps operate, ROM where the OS and apps are stored, and device storage where pictures and files are stored just like an internal SD. I'd be shocked if they set aside 256MB of ROM for cache. That seems awfully large. I'd also be shocked if we couldn't shrink out more than 100MB of crap. One thing's for sure, we'll know very soon what these new BlackBerries limits really are.

The OS and apps can't be stored in ROM -- that's Read Only Memory! You can't download an app/put a new OS onto/into something that's read only. While none of us are RIM engineers, and the true workings of this appear to be a mystery to virtually all of us, I think dkonig's assumption that Application Memory is flash memory is probably accurate.

[TomRedman]

It took me a long time to get to the end of this thread, since its just flying by. But the issue you're all complaining about is really a side-effect of the architecture of the BlackBerry phone platform (hardware and software), which has been pushed far beyond its initial design.

These phones basically have 3 kinds of "memory":
1) RAM (technically DRAM, only keeps contents when it has power)
2) "Application Memory" (what we're always complaining about)
3) Mass storage (built-in eMMC on some models, SDCards, etc.)

#2 and #3 are physically separate areas on the hardware, and you can see this if you search out block diagrams of older phones. Its not some arbitrary "partition" as some keep speculating. I also think the "Application Memory" is actually specialized high-speed flash, and costs a lot more than the rest of the flash used for mass storage.

While I don't know much about the internals of the BlackBerry OS, I strongly suspect that its actually running the app code directly out of the "Application Memory". (Instead of copying it into a RAM segment first, then executing out of RAM, like your PC does.) This design probably made sense in the early days of BlackBerry OS, since it allows more apps to be running simultaneously on a device with limited RAM. (Note that the real reason the original iPhone didn't multi-task was probably due to the fact that it didn't have a lot of RAM.) Today, an approach where apps run out of RAM (and are kept on the eMMC/SDCard) would probably make you happy. However, the eMMC/SDCard is probably too slow or simply too architecturally detached from the JVM to run apps directly from. There's also performance considerations, especially with big-and-slow flash, for which you'd implement caching with extra RAM.

Now, a modern OS would do all of this magic, and wouldn't have special "application memory". It would simply have a filesystem on flash, where each app can have its executable code and its data as separate files. None of these complaints would exist, assuming they solved performance problems with caching. This is how Android (Linux-based) and iOS (OSX-based) work.

But remember, the current BlackBerry OS was designed with very different hardware considerations in mind. To get where we want, they'd have to rewrite a lot of the core parts of the operating system. You know, the bits they probably didn't even touch when going from OS 4.0 to 7.0. (And probably were afraid to touch, for fear of breaking something.)

This is easily the best and most accurate information in the thread from a technical point of view. Not saying it excuses RIM from anything, but it's exactly why they are moving to QNX. These phones are "hold them over" devices.

[dkonigs]

Precisely.

When something requires major investment and platform changes, RIM drags their feet for as long as possible, until they can't justify it any longer, then drag their feet a little more.

It was obvious that their browser sucked in OS 4.5. They tried improving it in 4.6, and tried a bit more in 5.0. They kept trying with their legacy browser because it fit well within their architecture. When they finally sucked it up and moved to Webkit, it was a big deal. Why? Because the browser engine had to run outside the JVM sandbox they were used to keeping all their application code within, and they had to come up with a way of hooking it into the UI. I doubt this was easy to do.

[hdizzle]

I have an Android, and have loads of apps and games on it (over 30), including Angry Birds, Skype and so on. Despite this I'm using less than 200MB. When I had a BB I was using about 90MB on apps despite having a large number of them. The fact is, you will NOT need to surpass that 188MB that is dedicated to apps, because the apps that are available for Blackberry are not particularly large in size. Furthermore, since the 9930 has 8GB of onboard memory, with new releases of the OS, more and more memory can be dedicated to the apps.

[axe50]

Clearly, this "bump" in memory is in reality, a significant drop to us - this is strike 2 for me. (Strike 1 being no UMA support...which is a different topic but might be a showstopper for me)

My disclaimer - Yes I know you can shrink an OS, but my point is that you shouldn't have to. I don't buy a car then go and strip out the interior so i can get an extra 1mpg.

The 9700 had approximately 110mb left over after install, of which around 80 could be used for apps (I'm assuming that 30 is needed to keep things from going hourglass crazy). With themes running around 1.2mb a hit, and apps ranging from 50-400kb at launch, we could install about 25-30 apps, and about half dozen themes before things started to slow down.

The 9900 for all its glory, only having an additional 70mb would be nice if apps were the same size. Just about every app is now in the 1-3mb range, with some lower end ones in the 300-500 range.

In short, app sizes are growing, OS size has swelled, and the available memory has not kept up.

[laurah2215]

Ok guys, seriously please think this through. bb apps are fairly small generally being less than 1mb. You have 188mb from the box and when u shrink this putty down u will EASILY shrink down another 100+mb (removing fonts, help files, startup videos, ringtones, im's u dont use and soo much more). just wait for a version of hybrid tools and shrink it down. as long as i never see another clock face i will die happily.

This is what I said! 188 of application storage may not seem like a lot but that is just out of the box. You don't have to live with that. Delete what you don't need and be satisfied. I know some people are frustrated because they expected this device to have more storage out of the box, but I'm just not convinced that it is a problem that can't be easily fixed. No big deal, IMHO.