10-31-13 09:13 PM
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  1. jonty12's Avatar
    Huh... interesting that the leaked firmware caused this issue for you. Glad to hear though it was fixed, and at least you were able to determine the connections weren't making it to the Exchange server.
    Since I'm thing a little time off work for the rest of May, my email isn't as critical as it normally is. BlackBerry may want to do some investigation of the issue with me so, at their request, I may upgrade again.

    I'll let you know if we figure anything out.

    Posted via CB10
    05-17-13 12:15 PM
  2. QTSFRBB's Avatar
    I have had the original poster's problems (the erratic syncing behavior) twice in the past 10 days of owning a new Q10: each time it was when I was roaming and desperately needed pushed emails during my trips (1st time a week ago from France to UK; 2nd time this week from France to Switzerland).

    I wonder if there is a link between this problem and the device's behavior when roaming (for example, if the number of attempts to reach the server as the device floats from network to network is higher when roaming, rather than being locked into the home network)?

    This issue is being discussed here: Activesync - long delays in email delivery while r... - BlackBerry Support Community Forums

    I wonder if the Original Poster can specify if he experienced this problem in his home network, or whilst roaming?
    05-30-13 03:52 PM
  3. jonty12's Avatar
    I have had the original poster's problems (the erratic syncing behavior) twice in the past 10 days of owning a new Q10: each time it was when I was roaming and desperately needed pushed emails during my trips (1st time a week ago from France to UK; 2nd time this week from France to Switzerland).

    I wonder if there is a link between this problem and the device's behavior when roaming (for example, if the number of attempts to reach the server as the device floats from network to network is higher when roaming, rather than being locked into the home network)?

    This issue is being discussed here: Activesync - long delays in email delivery while r... - BlackBerry Support Community Forums

    I wonder if the Original Poster can specify if he experienced this problem in his home network, or whilst roaming?
    My "workaround" has been to forward my problem email to an outlook.com account. That way I can see it and respond real-time instead of waiting for my EAS push to kick in. I'm able to reply by forwarding via my EAS account since the issue is with receiving mail and sending works fine.

    Today I turned off push and set my sync time to "manual" and was getting my mail real-time for about five hours. It has since seemed to stop.


    Posted via CB10
    05-30-13 07:59 PM
  4. HotFix's Avatar
    My "workaround" has been to forward my problem email to an outlook.com account. That way I can see it and respond real-time instead of waiting for my EAS push to kick in. I'm able to reply by forwarding via my EAS account since the issue is with receiving mail and sending works fine.

    Today I turned off push and set my sync time to "manual" and was getting my mail real-time for about five hours. It has since seemed to stop.


    Posted via CB10
    How does your email being on Outlook.com make a difference? Aren't you using ActiveSync for that as well?

    Also how are you getting email updates with syncing and push turned off. That makes no sense as that should require you to perform manual syncs to see new email.

    Posted via CB10
    05-31-13 06:14 AM
  5. Omnitech's Avatar
    Also how are you getting email updates with syncing and push turned off. That makes no sense as that should require you to perform manual syncs to see new email.

    Counter-intuitively, some people have found that turning off "use push if available" on OS 10.1 sometimes helps reduce or eliminate email delivery problems.

    http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...onight-810755/
    http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...issues-811237/
    05-31-13 07:45 AM
  6. jonty12's Avatar
    How does your email being on Outlook.com make a difference? Aren't you using ActiveSync for that as well?

    Also how are you getting email updates with syncing and push turned off. That makes no sense as that should require you to perform manual syncs to see new email.

    Posted via CB10
    See Omnitech's response re: not using push. It's whacky. If I set push off and set sync time to anything other than manual it doesn't work. I've tried 5 minutes, 15 minutes, etc, doesn't matter. Only manual works.

    The EAS issue doesn't seem to affect outlook.com. This is what makes it frustrating. There seems to be no rhyme or reason why the problem exists.

    Gmail, outlook.com, and Yahoo mail work, but my corporate EAS account doesn't. It used to work, but doesn't now. It works for all other Z10s in the company as well as all iOS and Android users. I'm the only Z10 that's upgraded to 10.1. The last time I reverted back to 10.0 it all worked again.

    Posted via CB10
    05-31-13 09:07 AM
  7. Omnitech's Avatar
    If I set push off and set sync time to anything other than manual it doesn't work. I've tried 5 minutes, 15 minutes, etc, doesn't matter. Only manual works.

    The EAS issue doesn't seem to affect outlook.com. This is what makes it frustrating. There seems to be no rhyme or reason why the problem exists.

    For what it's worth, in looking over the protocol documents, it appears that by default, there really is no "manual sync" for Exchange ActiveSync - if the network supports it, it will push all updates/notifications/changes.

    It seems like the "manual sync" options might only have a bearing if the network conditions do not support push. (Microsoft's name for this is "Direct Push".) The usual reason for that is when one or more elements in the path do not support long-lived TCP sessions, ie longer than 5 minutes.

    I suppose it's possible that what is going on here is a combination of things:

    1. Network conditions are not conducive to push as described above, and
    2. BB10 is not properly falling-back to timed sync (ie the "Sync Interval" setting in advanced email account settings)



    Interestingly, I just noticed that the outlook.com account on my Verizon Z10 (OS 10.0.9.2743) has the "Sync Interval" setting greyed-out and inaccessible. (Displaying "Manual" but not changeable.) I don't recall setting it that way myself.
    05-31-13 05:28 PM
  8. WArcher's Avatar
    Hi Anton.
    I have the same setup but it works perfectly on two different ActiveSync installations: One for work and one for MS365 (my personal work instead of GMail).

    On my device it shows up far faster than it does on Outlook for both accounts.

    When you set up your phone did you just give it the username, then the password, and let it do its "AutoDiscover" thing?
    05-31-13 05:31 PM
  9. jonty12's Avatar
    For what it's worth, in looking over the protocol documents, it appears that by default, there really is no "manual sync" for Exchange ActiveSync - if the network supports it, it will push all updates/notifications/changes.

    It seems like the "manual sync" options might only have a bearing if the network conditions do not support push. (Microsoft's name for this is "Direct Push".) The usual reason for that is when one or more elements in the path do not support long-lived TCP sessions, ie longer than 5 minutes.

    I suppose it's possible that what is going on here is a combination of things:

    1. Network conditions are not conducive to push as described above, and
    2. BB10 is not properly falling-back to timed sync (ie the "Sync Interval" setting in advanced email account settings)



    Interestingly, I just noticed that the outlook.com account on my Verizon Z10 (OS 10.0.9.2743) has the "Sync Interval" setting greyed-out and inaccessible. (Displaying "Manual" but not changeable.) I don't recall setting it that way myself.
    If you have push turned on, you can't set a sync time (manual will be dimmed and unchangeable). If you turn push off, you can then change the sync time.

    As mentioned previously, my mail worked perfectly on stock Verizon software. 10.1 broke it.

    My settings are identical to all others in my firm with Z10s. I'm the only one on 10.1 and I'm the only one not getting push Mail.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by jonty12; 05-31-13 at 08:41 PM.
    05-31-13 08:24 PM
  10. anon(2729369)'s Avatar
    Gmail, outlook.com, and Yahoo mail work, but my corporate EAS account doesn't. It used to work, but doesn't now. It works for all other Z10s in the company as well as all iOS and Android users. I'm the only Z10 that's upgraded to 10.1. The last time I reverted back to 10.0 it all worked again.
    Wouldn't it be possible for you to access your emails via IMAP? Just temporarily turn off email sync in your BB10 activesync account and create an IMAP account with the same credentials.
    05-31-13 08:42 PM
  11. Omnitech's Avatar
    Wouldn't it be possible for you to access your emails via IMAP? Just temporarily turn off email sync in your BB10 activesync account and create an IMAP account with the same credentials.
    That's assuming their email provider has IMAP enabled. No guarantee of that.

    Then there's the question of what would happen with any formerly synced calendar/contact/notes.

    And what would happen if they had 2 accounts trying to sync 2 sets of the same messages into the Hub. I'd imagine that might get messy.
    05-31-13 08:47 PM
  12. anon(2729369)'s Avatar
    Then there's the question of what would happen with any formerly synced calendar/contact/notes.

    And what would happen if they had 2 accounts trying to sync 2 sets of the same messages into the Hub. I'd imagine that might get messy.
    Formerly synced events don't disappear. The activesync account is not deleted, just modified.

    And there is only one account which syncs emails, so no duplication issues.
    05-31-13 08:53 PM
  13. jonty12's Avatar
    Wouldn't it be possible for you to access your emails via IMAP? Just temporarily turn off email sync in your BB10 activesync account and create an IMAP account with the same credentials.
    We don't have IMAP enabled. The only ways to access my corporate mail on a mobile are:

    1. BES with BBOS
    2. EAS with iOS 4+, Android 2.3+, BB10
    3. OWA through a browser
    05-31-13 09:30 PM
  14. Omnitech's Avatar
    Formerly synced events don't disappear. The activesync account is not deleted, just modified.

    And there is only one account which syncs emails, so no duplication issues.

    Right, you say the original EAS account is not deleted, so all the messages that it had formerly synced to the device remain in the Hub, it just stops updating them.

    Then you setup a 2nd account to sync the SAME messages, resulting in a second set of identical messages (outside of perhaps some difference in the header that we can't see) ALSO synced to the hub.

    Sounds like a big morass to me.
    05-31-13 10:36 PM
  15. HotFix's Avatar
    See Omnitech's response re: not using push. It's whacky. If I set push off and set sync time to anything other than manual it doesn't work. I've tried 5 minutes, 15 minutes, etc, doesn't matter. Only manual works.

    The EAS issue doesn't seem to affect outlook.com. This is what makes it frustrating. There seems to be no rhyme or reason why the problem exists.

    Gmail, outlook.com, and Yahoo mail work, but my corporate EAS account doesn't. It used to work, but doesn't now. It works for all other Z10s in the company as well as all iOS and Android users. I'm the only Z10 that's upgraded to 10.1. The last time I reverted back to 10.0 it all worked again.

    Posted via CB10
    That sounds like a bug and you should open a ticket with BlackBerry support.
    06-01-13 08:33 AM
  16. HotFix's Avatar
    For what it's worth, in looking over the protocol documents, it appears that by default, there really is no "manual sync" for Exchange ActiveSync - if the network supports it, it will push all updates/notifications/changes.

    It seems like the "manual sync" options might only have a bearing if the network conditions do not support push. (Microsoft's name for this is "Direct Push".) The usual reason for that is when one or more elements in the path do not support long-lived TCP sessions, ie longer than 5 minutes.

    I suppose it's possible that what is going on here is a combination of things:

    1. Network conditions are not conducive to push as described above, and
    2. BB10 is not properly falling-back to timed sync (ie the "Sync Interval" setting in advanced email account settings)



    Interestingly, I just noticed that the outlook.com account on my Verizon Z10 (OS 10.0.9.2743) has the "Sync Interval" setting greyed-out and inaccessible. (Displaying "Manual" but not changeable.) I don't recall setting it that way myself.
    Why would Microsoft's ActiveSync documentation have to include a reference for a client manual synching for there to be a manual sync on the client side? I don't think they need to define that kind of a client behavior , as a client chooses how to sync including how often (if they aren't using Direct Push). To my knowledge a manual sync exists for ActiveSync if the client decides to not use Direct Push and is not configured for a periodic check in period.

    I think you are confused as to what exactly Direct Push is. Configuring Direct Push on the device tells the device to register itself with Exchange for update notifications. Then if a device is registered for direct push notifications and it receives them from the server, the device will automatically download the updates it was notified about. That's why you use Direct Push >or< defined sync intervals, but not both.
    Understanding Direct Push and Exchange Server 2010

    You are correct though that firewalls or other connection points in-between the ActiveSync device and the server can prematurely terminate the connection between the device and server before the two end points think it should be. That is the premise behind:
    Enterprise firewall configuration for Exchange ActiveSync Direct Push Technology

    In my experience when a device is configured for Direct Push, it never uses a manually configured Sync Interval. Rather it uses the heartbeat algorithm described in the TechNet article above to check in with the server which should eventually reach an agreeable age limit. You can manually refresh an ActiveSync connection though which *should* reset the timer and heartbeat process, which is the quickest way to know if your device is out of sync or not.
    06-01-13 08:49 AM
  17. jonty12's Avatar
    Can't officially open a ticket because it's unsupported software on Verizon. The fix is to go back to verizon's official release.

    That being said, I've been working directly with BlackBerry on it since May 16.

    Posted via CB10
    06-01-13 08:50 AM
  18. HotFix's Avatar
    We don't have IMAP enabled. The only ways to access my corporate mail on a mobile are:

    1. BES with BBOS
    2. EAS with iOS 4+, Android 2.3+, BB10
    3. OWA through a browser
    Also I am under the impression IMAP is less efficient than ActiveSync, as ActiveSync was designed for mobile devices with battery preservation in mind, and IMAP has just been "enhanced" to work in a mobile environment (referencing Google's adaptation of IMAP "push").

    I would focus on getting ActiveSync working since that's about as good as mobile synching gets when it works correctly (even BES 10 uses it on the back-end).
    06-01-13 08:52 AM
  19. anon(2729369)'s Avatar
    Right, you say the original EAS account is not deleted, so all the messages that it had formerly synced to the device remain in the Hub, it just stops updating them.

    Then you setup a 2nd account to sync the SAME messages, resulting in a second set of identical messages (outside of perhaps some difference in the header that we can't see) ALSO synced to the hub.

    Sounds like a big morass to me.
    You're wrong. If you stop syncing emails via ActiveSync, they don't show up in the Hub.
    06-01-13 09:09 AM
  20. anon(2729369)'s Avatar
    Also I am under the impression IMAP is less efficient than ActiveSync, as ActiveSync was designed for mobile devices with battery preservation in mind, and IMAP has just been "enhanced" to work in a mobile environment (referencing Google's adaptation of IMAP "push").

    I would focus on getting ActiveSync working since that's about as good as mobile synching gets when it works correctly (even BES 10 uses it on the back-end).
    The Lemonade profile used by IMAP to push notifications was designed for mobile devices.
    It works in a similar manner, but only for emails.

    If I'm not mistaken, the advantage ActiveSync has over imap+card/caldav is that you only open "one" connection to the server in order to have access to all your PIM data, but the downside is as others have mentioned, the protocol is quite complex and thus more fragile.
    So, yes, creating an IMAP account on your device will open a new connection to the server, but that's it in terms of overhead. It was even better in the BIS days due to BB's push technology.

    And BES is using ActiveSync simply because a lot of SMEs were using Exchange when BES was created, not because it's the best technology out there today. There was no push via IMAP and no cal/carddav. The whole point was to give employees access to all their PIM data on the go, not just email.

    But you're right, the best thing would be for ActiveSync to work as planned. Using IMAP is a good plan B solution imho.
    06-01-13 09:39 AM
  21. Omnitech's Avatar
    Why would Microsoft's ActiveSync documentation have to include a reference for a client manual synching for there to be a manual sync on the client side? I don't think they need to define that kind of a client behavior , as a client chooses how to sync including how often (if they aren't using Direct Push). To my knowledge a manual sync exists for ActiveSync if the client decides to not use Direct Push and is not configured for a periodic check in period.

    What I was saying was that based on what I read, by default, any activity or state-change on either the server-side or client side would initiate a sync without waiting for any periodic sync period.

    In IMAP for example, you can make changes on the client side all you want, they will not get propagated to the server until the sync period arrives. On the server-side, folder state changes do get propagated to the client proactively if that folder is synced and IMAP IDLE is running.


    I think you are confused as to what exactly Direct Push is. Configuring Direct Push on the device tells the device to register itself with Exchange for update notifications. Then if a device is registered for direct push notifications and it receives them from the server, the device will automatically download the updates it was notified about. That's why you use Direct Push >or< defined sync intervals, but not both.
    Understanding Direct Push and Exchange Server 2010

    That document says nothing at all about "registration" - perhaps you were thinking of a different one?
    06-01-13 05:10 PM
  22. Omnitech's Avatar
    You're wrong. If you stop syncing emails via ActiveSync, they don't show up in the Hub.

    OK, I never tried that, not sure what the point of that feature is but OK. (Should only take 60 seconds to re-setup an account, though perhaps in some corporate environments there is the issue with limited "enrollments" that you might avoid if you started over from scratch and had to request a new "enrollment" or something.)



    The Lemonade profile used by IMAP to push notifications was designed for mobile devices.
    It works in a similar manner, but only for emails.

    If I'm not mistaken, the advantage ActiveSync has over imap+card/caldav is that you only open "one" connection to the server in order to have access to all your PIM data, but the downside is as others have mentioned, the protocol is quite complex and thus more fragile.

    IMAP IDLE provides push without the need for the "Lemonade profile", though the latter does help by pipelining commands and allowing operations like forwarding of messages without having to download them to the client and re-send them. IMAP still has the problem of having to create a TCP session for every synced folder, not having any other PIM functionality, absence of advanced security features and various other things.


    So, yes, creating an IMAP account on your device will open a new connection to the server, but that's it in terms of overhead. It was even better in the BIS days due to BB's push technology.

    See above. If you sync a lot of IMAP folders, the overhead is non-trivial.


    And BES is using ActiveSync simply because a lot of SMEs were using Exchange when BES was created, not because it's the best technology out there today. There was no push via IMAP and no cal/carddav. The whole point was to give employees access to all their PIM data on the go, not just email.

    As much as I have never been much a fan of building an entire infrastructure from Microsoft back-office components, I have to admit that EAS these days is pretty ritzy. And because of certain legal mandates that Microsoft is operating under, they have to fully document the protocol, and since it's grown quite a bit in sophistication and is publicly documented, and because the VAST majority of large organizations are using MS Exchange these days, I am honestly not a bit surprised that Blackberry made the decision to embrace it that they did. Especially since lack of native support for EAS on their mobile devices was starting to really handicap their competitiveness in the marketplace.
    06-01-13 05:27 PM
  23. Omnitech's Avatar
    In IMAP for example, you can make changes on the client side all you want, they will not get propagated to the server until the sync period arrives.

    I should clarify - obviously a client could be designed to initiate an out-of-cycle sync whenever a change was made on the client-side, but that doesn't seem to be a common practice.
    06-01-13 05:31 PM
  24. HotFix's Avatar
    What I was saying was that based on what I read, by default, any activity or state-change on either the server-side or client side would initiate a sync without waiting for any periodic sync period.

    In IMAP for example, you can make changes on the client side all you want, they will not get propagated to the server until the sync period arrives. On the server-side, folder state changes do get propagated to the client proactively if that folder is synced and IMAP IDLE is running.
    The activity or state change on the client or server would only initiate a sync if the client is configured for direct push. Otherwise a manually defined synching period is needed, because without the client registration with the server through direct push the server would have no way to get to the client. Separately the client isn't supposed to sync with the server w/o direction to do so regardless of local client side changes, otherwise you couldn't use your email client at all for fear of making a change that would kick off synchronization over a network connection you might not want.

    If you can point to something that shows syncs will happen even if you define no schedule and disable direct push, other than the behavior of the BB10 client some people have reported which I do not believe is indicative of the way things should work with ActiveSync, then I would like to see it because it's quite possible I am completely wrong on this (although it would be a departure form all email synching protocols I have worked with for over 15 years).

    That document says nothing at all about "registration" - perhaps you were thinking of a different one?
    To my knowledge the step "The client issues an HTTP message known as a ping request to an Exchange server, asking that the server report whether any changes that occurred in the user’s mailbox within a specified time limit. In the ping request, the client specifies the folders that Exchange should monitor for changes. Typically these are the inbox, calendar, contacts, and tasks." is the registration process.
    06-02-13 08:52 AM
  25. uyi2g's Avatar
    I am also having the same syncing issue with the Z10. It started after I updated (officially) to the 10.1 firmware. E-mails would just stop coming with no information given when you manually refresh. After missing some very important e-mails, I decided to set up the same e-mail account on my ipad and noticed that when the email stopped appearing on the z10 I get a "unable to connect to mail server error" on my ipad. I have disabled the e-mail acct on the z10 and now just receive the e-mails on my ipad and have not had any issues since then.
    06-04-13 05:53 AM
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