06-17-17 04:19 PM
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  1. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    He's paying his dues from behind bars while my BlackBerry and OS10 still receives updates alive and kicking.

    Posted via CB10
    When was the last update and what version# ?
    Do you seriously expect to see another and how long will you wait before you accept that it's not coming?
    If it doesn't come in the next 100 years I don't think it ever will.
    06-14-17 12:05 AM
  2. Carjackd's Avatar
    Dude... you are harshing my buzz!
    Take another hit! It will make it better
    kbz1960 likes this.
    06-14-17 12:15 AM
  3. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Take another hit! It will make it better
    Way ahead of you.
    Carjackd likes this.
    06-14-17 12:18 AM
  4. Carjackd's Avatar
    I don't know why people seem to think that BlackBerry has no one skilled enough to work on BB10 or that the people brought along with the acquired companies have no applicable expertise.
    .
    Of course they do, but they are both on lunch break.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    06-14-17 12:20 AM
  5. Carjackd's Avatar
    I'm still waiting for OJ to find the real killer.
    *LGPA golf clap
    06-14-17 12:22 AM
  6. Carjackd's Avatar
    He's paying his dues from behind bars while my BlackBerry and OS10 still receives updates alive and kicking.

    Posted via CB10
    The only thing getting kicked is a dead horse
    kbz1960 likes this.
    06-14-17 12:27 AM
  7. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Apologies to all, I forgot the parameters of this thread.

    [Wishful thinking] Blackberry OS will be continuing after all.-443790_1.jpg

    Feeling much better now.
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    06-14-17 09:03 AM
  8. conite's Avatar
    Which is why BlackBerry should have followed Alan Brenner's suggestion of using Android as the SDK and making BB10 as source compatible with Android as possible, but with the Flow UX running on top of Neutrino. If Android SDK was a first class development choice for BB10 it would have been a development fork at worst for app developers instead of a whole new codebase that was supported nowhere else but on BB10.

    I had hoped when CEO John Chen told developers to develop for Android it was that he was belatedly taking Brenner's advice not abandoning BB10 to maintenance mode.

    Doing this would have improved developer ROI and would not have been a huge diversion from the path to Google's Android. They would have been in a position to decide between using Neutrino or switching to a security hardened Linux. If they had optimized Android it would have been a reason to continue with Neutrino.
    Now you're changing the subject and suggesting what you think they "should" have done. I'll leave the dozens of deal-breaker problems with this scenario alone since it's not the topic of the discussion.
    Last edited by conite; 06-14-17 at 03:23 PM.
    06-14-17 02:45 PM
  9. DonHB's Avatar
    Now you're changing to subject and suggesting what you think they "should" have done. I'll leave the dozens of deal-breaker problems with this scenario alone since it's not the topic of the discussion.
    OK:

    Which is why BlackBerry should have followed Alan Brenner's suggestion of using Android as the SDK and making BB10 as source compatible with Android as possible, but with the Flow UX running on top of Neutrino. If Android SDK was a first class development choice for BB10 it would have been a development fork at worst for app developers instead of a whole new codebase that was supported nowhere else but on BB10.

    I had hoped when CEO John Chen told developers to develop for Android it was that he was belatedly taking Brenner's advice not abandoning BB10 to maintenance mode.

    Doing this would have improved app developer ROI and would not have been a huge diversion from the path to Google's Android. They would have been in a position to decide between using Neutrino or switching to a security hardened Linux. If they had optimized Android it would have been a reason to continue with Neutrino.

    Now, if BlackBerry can no longer do this themselves, presumably due to licensing Google Play, they could open source their Android Player and make the run time removable and installable from BlackBerry World. To interest third parties such as BlueStacks to develop an up-to-date runtime, BlackBerry could use a device that is on (or will be) on the market using Snapdragon to enable Hardware Root of Trust (see above post for details) and maintain their software company identity.

    Finally, BlackBerry could follow through on their promise by naming the version of BB10 running on this device 10.3.4.
    Last edited by DonHB; 06-14-17 at 03:17 PM.
    06-14-17 02:57 PM
  10. conite's Avatar
    ... they could open source their Android Player and make the run time removable and installable from BlackBerry World. To interest third parties such as BlueStacks to develop an up-to-date runtime, BlackBerry could use a device that is on (or will be) on the market using Snapdragon to enable Hardware Root of Trust (see above post for details) and maintain their software company identity.

    Finally, BlackBerry could follow through on their promise by naming the version of BB10 running on this device 10.3.4.
    It's amazing that you keep going around and around.

    As has been explained to you countless times, BlackBerry will never, ever, ever do such a thing. It would take resources to extricate the Runtime, and 3rd parties would never be able to create anything without BlackBerry signing keys - which BlackBerry will never, ever provide. They would also have to work closely with BB10 teams (which no longer exist) because of the complete lack of public APIs.

    Hardware root of trust is 1/1000th of the issues with regards to using new hardware (which by itself would involve huge coding changes), so that too is beyond fantasy.
    Last edited by conite; 06-14-17 at 03:41 PM.
    06-14-17 03:28 PM
  11. DonHB's Avatar
    It's amazing that you keep going around and around.

    As has been explained to you countless times, BlackBerry will never, ever, ever do such a thing. It would take resources to extricate the Runtime, and 3rd parties would never be able to create anything without BlackBerry signing keys - which BlackBerry will never, ever provide.
    It is amazing that you refuse to believe that BlackBerry could remove the keys from the Android Player and make it a downloadable app from BlackBerry World.

    Hardware root of trust is 1/1000th of the issues with regards to using new hardware, so that too is beyond fantasy.
    It is amazing that you continue to believe that each Snapdragon SoC is not compatible in any way with the previous generation. EFats post above details this point regarding the Snapdragon 820A well which I also discussed in another thread in a reply to you.
    06-14-17 03:44 PM
  12. conite's Avatar
    It is amazing that you refuse to believe that BlackBerry could remove the keys from the Android Player and make it a downloadable app from BlackBerry World.

    It is amazing that you continue to believe that each Snapdragon SoC is not compatible in any way with the previous generation. EFats post above details this point regarding the Snapdragon 820A well which I also discussed in another thread in a reply to you.
    A redesign of the OS could remove the keys from the Android Runtime, sure. But it will never happen. Not ever. The access to the OS that the Runtime requires, alone makes it a security risk.

    A total BB10 driver set for new hardware is far, far from trivial. Qualcomm, among others, charge huge dollars for theirs.
    06-14-17 03:47 PM
  13. thurask's Avatar
    It is amazing that you refuse to believe that BlackBerry could remove the keys from the Android Player and make it a downloadable app from BlackBerry World.
    They already put out the occasional Android Runtime update in BB World (https://crackberry.com/android-runti...-now-available), so detaching it from the OS and making it an optional download might work, but opening it up to third party development is not the same thing as making it an optional download. The update still requires BlackBerry's signing keys, since it's their BB World account and is still installed with system privileges. More importantly, updating the Android runtime requires developers to genuinely care about BB10, which will never happen no matter how many times you stick your head in the sand and go "la la la signing keys".
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    06-14-17 05:20 PM
  14. app_Developer's Avatar

    It is amazing that you continue to believe that each Snapdragon SoC is not compatible in any way with the previous generation. EFats post above details this point regarding the Snapdragon 820A well which I also discussed in another thread in a reply to you.
    Every new SoC has a new set of drivers. That doesn't mean 100% of the code is new. Of course it isn't. But there is real work involved in producing a new set of drivers for each SoC, even if you start with the set from a previous SoC.

    On the Android runtime, most of the Android runtime is actually just the AOSP. BB modified the AOSP to run on Neutrino, and to support their particular set of hardware for the Z*, Passport. If they were to make that available to other developers, most developers can't really work on it anyway because most developers (like 99+% of us) haven't charged our BB10 phones in months or years or never owned one to begin with.

    Neutrino is a bad idea on phones. That kernel was available for decades before BB bought them. None of the other phone teams used it for phones, because it makes very little sense. If QNX had been a German or American or Korean or Japanese company, even BB themselves would never really have considered it for phones. This was one Canadian founder falling in love with a nice story from another Canadian founder and the rest was history.

    Now, QNX does make a LOT of sense in cars and especially autonomous driving. So now the developers at BB who have experience with QNX are working on productive things like cars instead of chasing after phone windmills.
    StephanieMaks likes this.
    06-14-17 05:36 PM
  15. DonHB's Avatar
    A redesign of the OS could remove the keys from the Android Runtime, sure. But it will never happen. Not ever.
    No redesign of the OS should be required to validate the Android Player as an app, because it is not a sink for platform services like Contacts, Calendar, BBM or Hub. Actually, you want to allow apps the Player runs to utilize all the platform's services. These services parallel those that are available in Android and will allow developers to closely match functionality under Google Android.

    The access to the OS that the Runtime requires, alone makes it a security risk.
    What OS access is required by the runtime beyond what a native app requires? Android Player is not a full implementation of Android. Its purpose is to run applications.

    A total BB10 driver set for new hardware is far, far from trivial. Qualcomm, among others, charge huge dollars for theirs.
    Qualcomm may be interested in reducing their debt to BlackBerry by reducing the cost of drivers in lieu of cash, but I am inclined to believe that QNX has been writing Neutrino drivers for Qualcomm's hardware for years.
    06-14-17 08:05 PM
  16. conite's Avatar
    No redesign of the OS should be required to validate the Android Player as an app, because it is not a sink for platform services like Contacts, Calendar, BBM or Hub. Actually, you want to allow apps the Player runs to utilize all the platform's services. These services parallel those that are available in Android and will allow developers to closely match functionality under Google Android.

    What OS access is required by the runtime beyond what a native app requires? Android Player is not a full implementation of Android. Its purpose is to run applications.

    Qualcomm may be interested in reducing their debt to BlackBerry by reducing the cost of drivers in lieu of cash, but I am inclined to believe that QNX has been writing Neutrino drivers for Qualcomm's hardware for years.
    No, no, and no.
    06-14-17 08:09 PM
  17. DonHB's Avatar
    If they were to make that available to other developers, most developers can't really work on it anyway because most developers (like 99+% of us) haven't charged our BB10 phones in months or years or never owned one to begin with.
    Judging, by those responding negatively to this thread, devices will be cheap to come by on eBay.

    Neutrino is a bad idea on phones. That kernel was available for decades before BB bought them. None of the other phone teams used it for phones, because it makes very little sense. If QNX had been a German or American or Korean or Japanese company, even BB themselves would never really have considered it for phones. This was one Canadian founder falling in love with a nice story from another Canadian founder and the rest was history.

    Now, QNX does make a LOT of sense in cars and especially autonomous driving. So now the developers at BB who have experience with QNX are working on productive things like cars instead of chasing after phone windmills.
    I don't want to rehash an argument that was extensively argued in another thread.
    06-14-17 08:10 PM
  18. DonHB's Avatar
    No, no, and no.
    Can you back up your opinions instead of providing empty arguments?
    06-14-17 08:12 PM
  19. app_Developer's Avatar
    What OS access is required by the runtime beyond what a native app requires? Android Player is not a full implementation of Android. Its purpose is to run applications.
    The player has to have access to everything on the phone in order to be able to vend access to any of it to Android apps (e.g. camera, GPS, filesystem). The player also almost certainly has privileged access to memory and other resources to make it perform well.

    Qualcomm may be interested in reducing their debt to BlackBerry by reducing the cost of drivers in lieu of cash, but I am inclined to believe that QNX has been writing Neutrino drivers for Qualcomm's hardware for years.
    Why would BlackBerry want to make this trade? I would be furious as a shareholder if Chen traded actual cash for drivers, when the drivers are only useful to make more phones to lose even more cash.

    Chen wants the $ from Qualcomm so he can use it to grow the new BlackBerry businesses.
    06-14-17 08:15 PM
  20. app_Developer's Avatar
    Judging, by those responding negatively to this thread, devices will be cheap to come by on eBay.
    I have 2 in a junk drawer somewhere. But there is zero point in finding them and plugging them in, let alone taking the time to hack on the Android player. The world has moved on already.
    06-14-17 08:20 PM
  21. Emaderton3's Avatar
    Can you back up your opinions instead of providing empty arguments?
    Let's say they can do everything you say. There is no guarantee of a market or apps. Why risk it?

    Posted via CB10
    06-14-17 08:50 PM
  22. eshropshire's Avatar
    Can you back up your opinions instead of providing empty arguments?
    Easy, what part of BlackBerry is out of the hardware business is not understood? Why would BlackBerry want BB10 drivers for phones they don't sell? Blackberry is now an enterprise software company.

    Blackberry Mobile has an exclusive on selling BlackBerry phones in most of the world. They have been very clear they are only selling BlackBerry Android phones. So who would sell BB10 phones and why would they sell better in 2017 than they sold in 2014?
    06-14-17 09:12 PM
  23. DonHB's Avatar
    Let's say they can do everything you say. There is no guarantee of a market or apps. Why risk it?
    Without numbers from the inside there is no way to judge the risk.

    But, to be clear, this proposal is about using devices which are on or will be on the market so hardware R&D was done by the manufacturer not BlackBerry. Making sure the software works and final QA would, however, be on BlackBerry. The KEYone would probably not be a good choice because its display does not match any existing BB10 device. There is a precedent for this. Sony provides Sailfish OS as an installable option. However, devices could instead be sold direct by BlackBerry.

    This is about having an alternative to Google and Apple. A third party up-to-date Android runtime that is free of Google/Alphabet could help with apps going forward, but I would settle for Android 4.4.
    06-14-17 09:44 PM
  24. conite's Avatar

    This is about having an alternative to Google and Apple. A third party up-to-date Android runtime that is free of Google/Alphabet could help with apps going forward, but I would settle for Android 4.4.
    That would be essentially useless. More apps require Google Play Services than KitKat. Forks of Android are no longer viable.
    06-14-17 09:48 PM
  25. DonHB's Avatar
    That would be essentially useless. More apps require Google Play Services than KitKat. Forks of Android are no longer viable.
    Empty conjecture as usual.

    The point is that BlackBerry need not manufacturer nor design the devices that run BB10.
    06-14-17 09:51 PM
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