06-23-15 11:46 PM
91 1234
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  1. Elite1's Avatar
    5.1, according to the Italian dev screenshot that sparked it all.
    Are you answering the OP? I wasn't sure what you meant by your post.
    06-19-15 03:46 PM
  2. sammyg423's Avatar
    If Blackberry gets rid of BB10, I will dump all my Blackberry Devices to the trash. Why can't blackberry just make the android runtime smoother and then implement google play/google services and yay everyone is happy, Or even give us the choice between Installing Google Play Services or not. If blackberry made the runtime just smoother, And have a good posibility of installing Google play services, Im sure people would stick around.

    -EDIT-
    Now, If the "Google Play Services" Thing is impossible, Then maybe Blackberry should start to maybe get some more apps on Blackberry world. I Mean, Blackberry world has never had that many apps. Maybe if they started encouraging Devs to code for BB, People would catch on. Its not like blackberry is dead, Because i still see people using blackberries. But maybe they should start to "Reboot" The App world, Just like the Windows phone market "ish" That now has many more apps then it did in the past. Would that be a solution?
    Last edited by Samuel Gabbay; 06-19-15 at 04:34 PM.
    06-19-15 04:24 PM
  3. conite's Avatar
    If Blackberry gets rid of BB10, I will dump all my Blackberry Devices to the trash. Why can't blackberry just make the android runtime smoother and then implement google play/google services and yay everyone is happy, Or even give us the choice between Installing Google Play Services or not. If blackberry made the runtime just smoother, And have a good posibility of installing Google play services, Im sure people would stick around.
    That's the whole point! BlackBerry cannot have Google Play Services unless Android is the base OS. Please read the thread.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2252
    diegonei likes this.
    06-19-15 04:28 PM
  4. sammyg423's Avatar
    That's the whole point! BlackBerry cannot have Google Play Services unless Android is the base OS. Please read the thread.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2252
    Just did, made an edit

    -EDIT-
    Now, If the "Google Play Services" Thing is impossible, Then maybe Blackberry should start to maybe get some more apps on Blackberry world. I Mean, Blackberry world has never had that many apps. Maybe if they started encouraging Devs to code for BB, People would catch on. Its not like blackberry is dead, Because i still see people using blackberries. But maybe they should start to "Reboot" The App world, Just like the Windows phone market "ish" That now has many more apps then it did in the past. Would that be a solution?
    06-19-15 04:32 PM
  5. conite's Avatar
    Just did, made an edit

    -EDIT-
    Now, If the "Google Play Services" Thing is impossible, Then maybe Blackberry should start to maybe get some more apps on Blackberry world. I Mean, Blackberry world has never had that many apps. Maybe if they started encouraging Devs to code for BB, People would catch on. Its not like blackberry is dead, Because i still see people using blackberries. But maybe they should start to "Reboot" The App world, Just like the Windows phone market "ish" That now has many more apps then it did in the past. Would that be a solution?
    Good grief.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2252
    diegonei likes this.
    06-19-15 04:47 PM
  6. Bonsaibo's Avatar
    I believe that I first posted that the Android runtime would be removed in 10.3.3.

    Where did this come from? I made it up.

    It makes sense that it would happen thought. But, if you read everything I wrote, I also said that the runtime would be downloadable. This is the way tizen handles android in order to comply with OHA rules.

    Posted via CB10
    Is this really how it's done on tizen? If, AND ONLY IF, BlackBerry had to move in this direction, and if this is even feasible, then is that a potential solution for BB to consider?
    06-19-15 04:49 PM
  7. Ment's Avatar
    You're looking at this from a point of view that we do not know what is in contractual agreements. Equally we do not know what is in the different implementations. Aliyun OS was speculated to be based on Android or the Dalvik runtime, this contravenes the OHA terms. BlackBerry however did not base BlackBerry 10 on Android OS and instead of incorporating the Dalvik runtime are believed to have used virtualization to translate BlackBerry 10 to Android commands and vice versa. This method does not contravene OHA terms, this does not constitute fragmentation of the Android OS, this is the massive difference between those cases.

    The fact is that Foxconn is able to build both types of device, if this contravened OHA terms a lack of action by Google would undermine the OHA. One unrelated but funny quirk is that the speculated BlackBerry Android 'Prague' device will also be manufactured by Foxconn (assumption made based on it being a low end device targeted at emerging markets) at a time when further BlackBerry 10 OS phones are expected.

    Posted via CB10
    Davlik already runs in virtual space everywhere its used, whether its in Android, BB10, Aliyun or in Tizen thats why its called Davlik Virtual Machine. Every Android app is its little VM. You can extract the runtime and use it in any number of OS as long as you build a layer between it and the hardware and Android apps will run happily. Just so everyone is on the same page this is the structure of Android.
    Attachment 244368

    Now the relationship between Foxconn and OHA is a unique one. They are an ODM but not an OEM, they make mobile devices for others but not for themselves which is not the case for Acer. There is probably some specific language in the OHA that governs this case. What happens if Foxconn starts selling their own phone so they expand the brand? Then perhaps they would no longer be able to make phones for BB10 as is. You could speculate that this may be a clue in why there is so much talk of BB Android and what then will happen to BB10 Android runtime.
    oystersourced likes this.
    06-19-15 04:58 PM
  8. sammyg423's Avatar
    Good grief.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2252
    Sorry. What if blackberry updated the Android Runtime to run 4.4? Things could be smoother. Devices would maybe work more smoothly? (Maybe). I know many people who's main complaints about Blackberry Android runtime were "It's slow and sluggish." So would a runtime update fix anything?
    06-19-15 04:58 PM
  9. Bonsaibo's Avatar
    Excellent! It should be mandatory reading for those wanting to discuss the issue.
    Completely agree. Really helps one to get a good sense of all the very interesting posts and articles on BlackBerry, Android and the OHA.
    06-19-15 05:00 PM
  10. conite's Avatar
    Sorry. What if blackberry updated the Android Runtime to run 4.4? Things could be smoother. Devices would maybe work more smoothly? (Maybe). I know many people who's main complaints about Blackberry Android runtime were "It's slow and sluggish." So would a runtime update fix anything?
    Very little. Google Play Services are the key.

    Apart from a few tweaks, the Runtime is running about as well as it can.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2252
    06-19-15 05:02 PM
  11. oystersourced's Avatar
    And you know that this is how Google views fragmentation?

    Posted via CB10
    I believe you are wrong, and that this is why Samsung are still in the OHA. Fragmentation occurs when the OS is forked and the subsequent changes developed for the fork lead to incompatibilities with the vanilla OS. This can occur if the developers of the fork create new functions or methods. Google cannot stop open source parts of their OS from being used by other companies, heck most of Android came from other projects. Google also can't stop other companies from creating their own solutions enabling running of vanilla Android apps. OHA was set up to try to keep everybody in line, to maintain the integrity of vanilla OS, the Google Services being the carrot, it doesn't try to limit the use of the Android Runtime in applications where compatibility with vanilla Android is sort. In these scenarios the availability of Google Services would be based on the agreement of the terms that their use comes with.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by oystersourced; 06-19-15 at 05:46 PM.
    RyanGermann likes this.
    06-19-15 05:04 PM
  12. sammyg423's Avatar
    Very little. Google Play Services are the key.

    Apart from a few tweaks, the Runtime is running about as well as it can.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.2252
    Damn. So is this pretty much a done deal for Blackberry? Are there any options for Blackberry? I really feel like Blackberry might go "Android Or Nothing".
    06-19-15 05:04 PM
  13. oystersourced's Avatar
    Damn. So is this pretty much a done deal for Blackberry? Are there any options for Blackberry? I really feel like Blackberry might go "Android Or Nothing".
    Why? The BlackBerry Leap has just been released aimed at businesses and this year's flagship will be sporting BlackBerry 10. If BlackBerry is still around in two years time so will BlackBerry 10 for these reasons alone.

    Posted via CB10
    06-19-15 05:18 PM
  14. CTU2fan's Avatar
    If BlackBerry does go this route it will be a huge screwjob to those of us with BB10 devices. I wonder if my Playbook will say "lol told you so"

    Posted via CB10
    06-19-15 05:52 PM
  15. lawguyman's Avatar
    I believe you are wrong, and that this is why Samsung are still in the OHA. Fragmentation occurs when the OS is forked and the subsequent changes developed for the fork lead to incompatibilities with the vanilla OS. This can occur if the developers of the fork create new functions or methods. Google cannot stop open source parts of their OS from being used by other companies, heck most of Android came from other projects. Google also can't stop other companies from creating their own solutions enabling running of vanilla Android apps. OHA was set up to try to keep everybody in line, to maintain the integrity of vanilla OS, the Google Services being the carrot, it doesn't try to limit the use of the Android Runtime in applications where compatibility with vanilla Android is sort. In these scenarios the availability of Google Services would be based on the agreement of the terms that their use comes with.

    Posted via CB10
    So you think that Samsung made the Android runtime on Tizen a user downloadable option just because it felt like it? You understand that Tizen has almost no native apps and that the apps it does have are Android apps right?

    Believe what you want but think about it.

    Posted via CB10
    06-19-15 09:39 PM
  16. diegonei's Avatar
    It makes sense that it would happen thought. But, if you read everything I wrote, I also said that the runtime would be downloadable. This is the way tizen handles android in order to comply with OHA rules.
    Interesting.
    06-19-15 09:50 PM
  17. oystersourced's Avatar
    So you think that Samsung made the Android runtime on Tizen a user downloadable option just because it felt like it? You understand that Tizen has almost no native apps and that the apps it does have are Android apps right?

    Believe what you want but think about it.

    Posted via CB10
    I don't need to think about it but thanks for the suggestion. There are many more logical and sensible reasons an Android Runtime would have been made a user optional download, many believe BlackBerry should have done the same. Making the Android Runtime of Tizen downloadable does not change its functionality, if Google believed it fragmented Android OS (which it doesn't and would be a misuse of the term) then they would still have to stop it's use because it undermines the OHA. Samsung may be the king of Android but without Google Play Services there would be wheelie bins filled with Samsung devices.

    You keep asking me whether I understand something, each time it has absolutely no relevance on what we are talking about and each time I find it highly offensive. I wouldn't be contributing to the debate if I didn't understand what I am talking about.

    BlackBerry do not use the Android Runtime (in a way that would cause incompatibility), they have implemented their own solution using virtualization, BlackBerry's solution does not contravene the OHA terms, Foxconn are a member of the OHA while producing BlackBerry's current devices and vanilla Android devices and BlackBerry would need to join to gain access to Google Services. If BlackBerry choose to make the Android Runtime an optional feature it would have absolutely nothing to do with the OHA and based on BlackBerry's strengthening of the Amazon partnership that likelihood actually seems highly remote.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by oystersourced; 06-20-15 at 03:40 PM.
    06-20-15 07:05 AM
  18. lawguyman's Avatar
    There are too many facts that you ignore or spin. Sorry, you're just wrong about these things.

    The OHA agreement, which I have read, prevents members from even assisting in fragmentation of Android.

    Google objected to Acer building a non-Android device that ran Android apps on the basis that this was fragmentation

    BB10 is a non-Android OS that runs Android in the same way as the Aliyun OS that Google called out Acer about.

    Samsung's Tizen OS which relies on Android for Apps forces users to download the Android runtime separately.

    As others have pointed out, all Android is virtualized, Apps run in a virtual machine. Thus, the cornerstone of your rationalization is simply false.

    You ignore or try to explain all this away instead of just accepting the most obvious explanation which is that Google views what BlackBerry has done as fragmentation and it will be an obstacle for BB10 if BlackBerry is indeed becoming part of the OHA.

    It may not be an insurmountable obstacle. This is simply a matter of contract. Google could grandfather BB10 in. The Android runtime could be made available on BB10 as a user downloadable option as it is on Tizen.

    Posted via CB10
    06-20-15 08:15 AM
  19. Erkan Kater's Avatar
    I would be very happy if they start removing the Android crap!!!!

    Blackberry hardware and Blackberry software is my choice.

    I dont care what other people think

    !!! Blackberry should stay Blackberry !!!
    06-20-15 08:59 AM
  20. RyanGermann's Avatar
    There are too many facts that you ignore or spin. Sorry, you're just wrong about these things.

    The OHA agreement, which I have read, prevents members from even assisting in fragmentation of Android.
    You two are not talking about the same thing: reasons why Google won't let vendors deploy Google proprietary "stuff".

    1) if you change Android to the degree that it is considered a "fork". BlackBerry isn't doing this. Android apps run on BB10's Android just fine... unless they depend on Google Services, which are absent on BB10, which includes the Google Play store itself.
    2) if you have a device that isn't "only, exclusively" Android, you can't have Google proprietary "stuff". BB10 devices are logically not "only, exclusively android", so no Google Stuff.

    Posted via CB10
    06-20-15 09:38 AM
  21. oystersourced's Avatar
    There are too many facts that you ignore or spin. Sorry, you're just wrong about these things.

    The OHA agreement, which I have read, prevents members from even assisting in fragmentation of Android.

    Google objected to Acer building a non-Android device that ran Android apps on the basis that this was fragmentation

    BB10 is a non-Android OS that runs Android in the same way as the Aliyun OS that Google called out Acer about.

    Samsung's Tizen OS which relies on Android for Apps forces users to download the Android runtime separately.

    As others have pointed out, all Android is virtualized, Apps run in a virtual machine. Thus, the cornerstone of your rationalization is simply false.

    You ignore or try to explain all this away instead of just accepting the most obvious explanation which is that Google views what BlackBerry has done as fragmentation and it will be an obstacle for BB10 if BlackBerry is indeed becoming part of the OHA.

    It may not be an insurmountable obstacle. This is simply a matter of contract. Google could grandfather BB10 in. The Android runtime could be made available on BB10 as a user downloadable option as it is on Tizen.

    Posted via CB10
    I'm wasting my time if you are not going to research thoroughly or even read and acknowledge the contents of my posts. I wasn't making it up when I described what happened with Aliyun OS. Instead of accepting Google on face value or acknowledging every bit of reporting not speculation and appreciating that Acer probably knew that Aliyun was largely based on Android OS or used the Dalvik runtime (in a way that caused fragmentation) you've formed an unsubstantiated conclusion (it wouldn't be the first time a piece of technology has been cloned and an attempt has been made to pass it off as original, especially in China). BlackBerry have created their own solution, they seek compatibility not fragmentation, you misunderstand when I talk of BlackBerry using virtualization to accomplish Android compatibility and this has no effect on how Android OS works (which is irrelevant).

    Amazon's Fire OS is a perfect candidate of an Android fork that would lead to fragmentation of Android OS. That is why Amazon had to find a non-member of the OHA to build it (not a member that has done some sort of backroom deal with Google enabling them to break the terms of the OHA).

    I have not used spin, I try to keep to the facts we know. I have sought to explain the software solutions and their nuances (which is all important when studying the OHA terms). Android app compatibility is not achieved by just one solution and not all solutions contravene the terms of the OHA. Each of the examples you have given are different solutions, there are logical reasons for them to be treated differently. Ignoring the technicalities does not make your argument sound nor the misinformation any more accurate.

    If BlackBerry's Android is aimed at any market outside of China then they will need to join the OHA if they plan on having Google Play Services.

    Posted via CB10
    06-20-15 11:30 AM
  22. mrjmc99's Avatar
    Doesn't Foxconn make iPhones too, they pretty much manufacturer everything.

    Z30STA100-3/10.3.2.840
    06-20-15 12:10 PM
  23. jdesignz's Avatar
    I've read in a few posts here that 10.3.3 will be the last BB10 OS update, and that it will remove the android runtime to comply with OHA stuff.

    Where the heck do these rumors come from??? I'm curious to know some the sources of these rumors.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Yes. Because BlackBerry 12 will be next.

    Posted via CB App for Android
    06-20-15 12:29 PM
  24. lawguyman's Avatar
    If you don't think that the BlackBerry Android runtime is based on AOSP you have not done any digging into the BB10 at all. AOSP is there not even too far under the surface. Plus, it is incompatible because BlackBerry does not support all the Android APIs.

    Load Ghost Commander and see all the parts of AOSP Android that are there and can be loaded but that BlackBerry keeps hidden from view.

    Again, everything you write is based on things that are demonstrably false.

    You again have presumed ideas about what forking is or what fragmentation is. Go work for Google and your views might actually mean something. Until you do, what you think about it isn't nearly as important as what Google has said and done about these things.




    Posted via CB10
    Attachment 358638
    06-20-15 12:30 PM
  25. extisis's Avatar
    OK, take it easy everyone!
    We edited the thread title, so hopefully that's more clear.

    Now... discuss.
    i'm just curious to know what it was originally....
    06-20-15 01:11 PM
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