[Alain_A]

A device is only sold to its apps

[crackberry_geek]

BlackBerry's problem with sales has nothing to do with the device itself, or what format they chose to make them. After all, the Z10 had great initial interest.

The problem was - and still is to this day - marketing.

At the Z10 launch, the marketing message was so confusing and misguided, that no one knew what really differentiated it from any other phone. Then, in the U.S., the carriers delayed the launch for so long that what brief interest there was, was totally lost. The new Samsung phones were announced, and speculation of the next iPhone had everyone's attention.

The Q10 IS a physical keyboard device, came out soon after, and it didn't do any better - maybe worse.

People here get hung up on one format being a favorite of so-called "BlackBerry enthusiasts". Yet, again and again - sales are proving otherwise.

Are there fans of the PKB? Sure.

Are there fans of the full touch? Sure. And they should be no less important to BlackBerry.

BlackBerry now has to actually sell the phones. Even to the enterprise/corporate customer. At this point, many in corporate and the enterprise are now already on all touch phones. They've moved on.

BlackBerry now has to sell what makes them special. And if they do it right, it won't matter what format they make their phones in. As long as it does what's expected. You can have your PKB, and the all touch, and the slider. Sell the BlackBerry Service.

Apple didn't sell the fact that their phone was an all touch device back in '07. They sold an experience. It just happened to be done on an all touch device. BlackBerry needs to do something similar. I don't know what that is, but they need to get off their arses and market BlackBerry. When done right, the devices will follow that message.

I think it would be okay to even mass market their corporate/enterprise-centric aspects to the general public. Make them seen again. Not everyone is the intended target, but cast a wide enough net, and actual corporate/enterprise interested parties will take notice.

Not everyone needs a ***** pill, yet they market the heck out of Viagra and similar meds all over various media outlets. I realize I'm comparing the advertising budget of Major Pharmaceutical to that of BlackBerry. But i think the general idea still applies.

Posted via CB10

EXACTLY!!!

BlackBerry's biggest misstep is still the fact that virtually no one outside this geek community even knows they still exist.

I've had my awesome Passport for almost 6 months now. Never seen another one in the wild. And I can't tell you how many times I get the following when people see it...

"What is that? Is that a phone? I didn't even know BlackBerry still made phones. I loved my BlackBerry back in the day and would have tried another but I didn't know they still existed."

BlackBerry 2015 = Stealing defeat from the jaws of victory

Posted via CB10

[tufcustomer]

Did the Q5 sell any better? That was a budget PKB device. Terrible sales.

How about the Q10? High end PKB device. Also miserable sales.

Going by your logic they shouldn't release any new PKB devices since those aforementioned devices sold miserably and don't justify a new device.

Reality is that the Z10 sold better than any other BB10 device. The reality is also that the Z10 and Z30 both over promised and under delivered, which is definitely a contributing factor in the sales numbers. Releasing a touch device that is actually competitive is key.

You also have to accept that it will take several good devices in a row before people accept that BlackBerry is back. The first few competitive devices aren't going to cause people to come running, aside from the BlackBerry faithful.

 Posted using my Z30 via CB10 

I didn't mean that PKB sold any better, my point was that keyboards is what BlackBerry does and evidently is going to continue to do. It's their niche in the market. It's what their best at whether they sell or not hence their insistence on PKB devices. Again I have no problem whatsoever with an all new full touch, hell I'd probably get one too. I'm just saying business wise it's probably why Chen is shying away from it. Not that I agree with it, but it's what it seems like.


Posted via CB10

[mlsins]

Somebody else already said this but don't knock it till you try it. I've had them all and Passport is by far the best device out there. Typing on the keyboard is a joy and the screen size and performance is bar none the best. Thank You BlackBerry!!!

Posted via CB10

[yawdman72]

It's a Z10/Z30/Z3 mashup.

It's actually an excuse for BB to get rid of the HUGE excess inventory of harware internals it acquired for the Q10 & Z10. When sales for those 2 devices tanked, BlackBerry had to re-purpose the hardware. Thus we ended up with the Classic & the Leap. There is no other logical expalnation in my book as to why BB has 4 year old hardware in inventory.

[cr4igora]

Somebody else already said this but don't knock it till you try it. I've had them all and Passport is by far the best device out there. Typing on the keyboard is a joy and the screen size and performance is bar none the best. Thank You BlackBerry!!!

I don't think you can say "Passport is by far the best device out there", that's simply a statement of opinion, not fact. I've used the Passport and I have returned to my trusty Z30 because the Passport is cumbersome and awkward...in my opinion.

The point is, FAR more people want a phone that is touch-screen and not a phone with a physical keyboard and that is a fact. It's perfectly acceptable to have one top-of-the-range keyboard phone to appease the hardcore keyboard-loving BlackBerry fans but three is ridiculous. If they want to be successful then they need to focus on a flagship all-touch phone which utilises what I think is a fantastic operating system.

[NYTOC83]

Fella you said it, my 9800 on Telus was a beast at the time. That phone of mine took a beating and dropping (none of which was my fault) but the scratches on that phone made all the Apple phones that crack and break today look .... I don't even think there's a word for it. That is how strong and sturdy BlackBerry's have been. Sure the trackball was an issue, but c'mon, look at how many iPhone users line the side of an Apple store just to repair their screen so it can look "PRETTY" again only to be cracked the next day. But a BlackBerry device, sheesh, go ahead and drop it.. just like a microphone and walk-away with it still intact!

[laplace52]

There is additional weight and thickness as a result of the slider portion. There's also the fact that you won't be able to get as sturdy a case because of the sliding component.

I think they would have been far better off releasing the same device minus the sliding keyboard or at the very least releasing a touch only version in parallel.

The numbers are very clear. People have been waiting for a replacement for the Z10 and Z30. As usual BlackBerry haven't listened and have stubbornly stays the course and come out with yet another PKB device without so much a hint of a new high end touch.

 Posted using my Z30 via CB10 

Nokia got an astoundingly robust device, the E7, using a slider. That was some three years ago. BlackBerry should be able to do it today.

Posted via CB10

[amjass12]

I agree completely with you OP. I don't want a kb and full touch in one, especially as the thickness will increase unnecessarily (from the all touch users point of view who wont use the kb). I am willing to give the curved edge a chance to see what they do with it. the s6 edge allows you to add favourite contacts which I like and I think its quite nice.

but from bb's point of view as well is that it is not the market they are focussing on I guess and keyboard devices are the market they will focus on, even if it means they have to add it to a full screen.

I love bb10... but if there comes a time where there is nothing clear in site in terms of all touch it will be time to go but if ios or android end up offering bb10 os full touch devices maybe all is well after all.

I wont jump to leap as I currently have the z30 and it is amazing, but this wouldn't be an upgrade at all. never mind

[MC_A_DOT]

Fella you said it, my 9800 on Telus was a beast at the time. That phone of mine took a beating and dropping (none of which was my fault) but the scratches on that phone made all the Apple phones that crack and break today look .... I don't even think there's a word for it. That is how strong and sturdy BlackBerry's have been. Sure the trackball was an issue, but c'mon, look at how many iPhone users line the side of an Apple store just to repair their screen so it can look "PRETTY" again only to be cracked the next day. But a BlackBerry device, sheesh, go ahead and drop it.. just like a microphone and walk-away with it still intact!

My 9800 was a brilliant phone that turned into a piece of s**t, sturdy my a**.

Trackpad stopped working, buttons stopped working, lasted about 3 hours off charge, black clocked and completely black screened twice.

Never ever dropped it, treated it like a first born child.

My PlayBook is still spotless, even though the software is pants.

[Mr.Willie]

It is primarily a communication device, after all, and is quite good in that regard.

Unfortunately most other people use them as a Pocket PC or PDA, and BB has been lacking at that for quite some time.

BlackBerry's problem with sales has nothing to do with the device itself, or what format they chose to make them. After all, the Z10 had great initial interest.

The problem was - and still is to this day - marketing.

<Snip>

Problem with the Z10 was it was delayed for how long ? Then when it finally came out, it's hardware was dated and you had random reboots. The manager of a local store had one on his hip and pushed them. He ended up with 100% returns. People moved on.

If marketing was the only solution needed, the problem could be solved by recruitment. But their problems run deeper than that. Also, if I was a sought after, employed marketing exec, would I leave a paying job to go work for BB ?

[Superfly_FR]

Ughh I'm so angry right now. I want a high end touch device - something comparable to iPhones - but instead, we get a slider.
I DON'T WANT A PKB!!! I don't like pkb and that's why there's all those pkb devices such as the passport.
Why can't BlackBerry just yank off that keyboard and sell it as an all touch. It'd sell much better.
And finally, to end my rant, why make the screen curved? What does that help with????
Posted via CB10

Chen explained it.
They believe the Enterprise hight tier users want a PKB. There's the passport.
They believe the Enterprise mid+ tier is also PKB oriented : There's the Classic.
They believe the Enterprise low/mid- users want a SKB : There's the Leap.

So your question might be "what about us, individual consumers ?".
Then the answer could be 'CU next year'.

$0.02

[kbz1960]

Chen explained it.
They believe the Enterprise hight tier users want a PKB. There's the passport.
They believe the Enterprise mid+ tier is also PKB oriented : There's the Classic.
They believe the Enterprise low/mid- users want a SKB : There's the Leap.

So your question might be "what about us, individual consumers ?".
Then the answer could be 'CU next year'.

$0.02

Or in two years when the contract is done, or never again for some. Who knows.

[amjass12]

Chen explained it.
So your question might be "what about us, individual consumers ?".
Then the answer could be 'CU next year'.

$0.02

Or see you never!

[crazigee]

I didn't mean that PKB sold any better, my point was that keyboards is what BlackBerry does and evidently is going to continue to do. It's their niche in the market. It's what their best at whether they sell or not hence their insistence on PKB devices. Again I have no problem whatsoever with an all new full touch, hell I'd probably get one too. I'm just saying business wise it's probably why Chen is shying away from it. Not that I agree with it, but it's what it seems like.


Posted via CB10

So then why did you bring up the Z10 and Z30 sales?

 Posted using my Z30 via CB10 

[tufcustomer]

So then why did you bring up the Z10 and Z30 sales?

 Posted using my Z30 via CB10 

I brought up Z10 and Z30 sales because regardless of what the PKB sales are Chen is going to have BlackBerry make and sell PKB devices. The full touch is a market that BlackBerry is only two devices deep in (BB10 OS phones of course). Considering the companies drive to become profitable a full touch given their short track record probably doesn't look like an asset to the company. I might be making assumptions, but from the outside looking in it seems logical.

Posted via CB10

[hardeyemi]

It would be great if a "all touch blackberry passport " is released....

Obviously it's a high end phone with good specs....

Posted via CB10

[Superfly_FR]

Or in two years when the contract is done, or never again for some. Who knows.

That's a risk they choose to take.
More devices in enterprises will probably contribute to rebuild the brand image though. As repeated by Chen : "not sexy: safe and efficient".
Should I make an analogy, I'd use 3D 65K UIs V.S Flat design... we saw how it finally ended...

Posted via CB10

[crazigee]

Chen explained it.
They believe the Enterprise hight tier users want a PKB. There's the passport.
They believe the Enterprise mid+ tier is also PKB oriented : There's the Classic.
They believe the Enterprise low/mid- users want a SKB : There's the Leap.

So your question might be "what about us, individual consumers ?".
Then the answer could be 'CU next year'.

$0.02

Except that if all these business users wanted PKB they would have dropped BlackBerry for the iPhone in the first place. BlackBerry got into trouble because they insisted on believing that all touch was a fad and PKB was here to stay. They were wrong.

Now they're busy trudging down the same road and expecting to arrive at a different destination. It's clearly a foolhardy approach.

 Posted using my Z30 via CB10 

[crackberry_geek]

Except that if all these business users wanted PKB they would have dropped BlackBerry for the iPhone in the first place. BlackBerry got into trouble because they insisted on believing that all touch was a fad and PKB was here to stay. They were wrong.

Now they're busy trudging down the same road and expecting to arrive at a different destination. It clearly a foolhardy approach.

 Posted using my Z30 via CB10 

Exactly... they just keep making the same mistakes over and over and over and over again.

Posted via CB10

[DaedalusIcarusHelios]

Except that if all these business users wanted PKB they would have dropped BlackBerry for the iPhone in the first place. BlackBerry got into trouble because they insisted on believing that all touch was a fad and PKB was here to stay. They were wrong.

Now they're busy trudging down the same road and expecting to arrive at a different destination. It clearly a foolhardy approach.

 Posted using my Z30 via CB10 

I agree. Only catering to PKB users will only make their niche smaller because the desire or requirement for a physical keyboard continues to fade. When users go to other platforms, they are using full touch.

While BB certainly needs to offer PKB devices, they need to also provide a good full touch solution that has their excellent virtual keyboard and everything else BB offers. I've been using an all-touch BB of some sort for almost 6 years now (starting with the Storm). I don't see myself acclimating well back to a physical keyboard after all these years. I am open to a Passport or this Slider if either ever become available for Verizon, but in a perfect world I'd want a full touch equivalent of this slider, assuming good specs.

[LuvULongTime]

Except that if all these business users wanted PKB they would have dropped BlackBerry for the iPhone in the first place. BlackBerry got into trouble because they insisted on believing that all touch was a fad and PKB was here to stay. They were wrong.

Now they're busy trudging down the same road and expecting to arrive at a different destination. It clearly a foolhardy approach.

 Posted using my Z30 via CB10 

BBOS was archaic next to iOS. That was the real driver. Not the PKB.

Posted via CB10

[vvildstar]

It makes complete sense why BBY isn't releasing a high-end all touch device... That market is way to difficult to break into and their own fan-base isn't enough to support 2 new all-touch devices. BBY will continue to produce more hybrid devices because they are the TOP producer of that device... Just like Apple and Samsung will continue to produce all-touch devices. Blackberry would rather put their eggs in devices they are known for and have a fan-based backing versus sinking money into a flag-ship all-touch device that would directly have to compete with the iPhone. The Leap is the perfect phone to give Blackberry users an all-touch option. I would also expect the new slider phone to have high-end specs in its all-touch components.

[Superfly_FR]

Except that if all these business users wanted PKB they would have dropped BlackBerry for the iPhone in the first place. BlackBerry got into trouble because they insisted on believing that all touch was a fad and PKB was here to stay. They were wrong.

Now they're busy trudging down the same road and expecting to arrive at a different destination. It clearly a foolhardy approach.

 Posted using my Z30 via CB10 

I believe you mix up the overall perception ( + BBOS deprecation) of BlackBerry and the results of a long, costly and accurate study (made by BlackBerry last year). [BTW I'm not sure I understand your first sentence, isn't that "they would'nt have dropped BlackBerry for the iPhone" ?]

Chen is not 'throwing away' that statement. They've been questioning the biggest companies and made a plan based on the results.He isn't a 'device guy' and I believe we cannot suspect him to prevaricate with his personal feelings.

My initial segmentation was a shortcut, as you may add Z10, Z30, Q5 and Q10 (and Z3 for several countries) to make a smoother mix.
Still, what Chen describes is a snapshot of the situation, backed with facts. You may wonder "yeah, right, but what about the non-loyalist companies ?", that's a point. Still, I'd tend to believe they've integrated that in the mix yet weighted by the fact they want to address the 'easiest' target first. Again, this is rational thinking : if keeping a loyalist cost is 1, gain a new client cost is approx. 10.
And when your approach is : "every move must generate cash NOW", guess which you target first ?

[Superfly_FR]

I agree. Only catering to PKB users [...]

Only catering to PKB users for high level employees.
And then, I'd tend to refer to their study (see above) and not my personal feelings.