02-17-18 07:44 PM
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  1. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    They also can't sell a product that doesn't meet a customer's expectations and needs.... no matter how much they might market or advertise it.

    Apps were a big part of why BB10 failed, but generally just about everything BlackBerry was doing was wrong.

    Z10 was a generation behind, but priced like other flagships
    BB10 was a beta product at best... for almost a full year.
    BlackBerry simply could not compete with Android OEMS on hardware design or pricing
    There was nothing really special about BB10 that would draw users away from the more established platforms.... including BBOS.
    BlackBerry did nothing to try and make the transition from BBOS to BB10 a nature one.
    Marketing... I agree that it wasn't very effective, they spent too little in showing what the phones could do. But they did do a LOT of marketing in the Spring and Summer of 2013. After that, there really was no reason or money to keep doing it.


    I think that BB10 was a GREAT OS, if it had been launched in 2007 - 2010, things might have turned out very differently.... but I doubt it. Because in general the BlackBerry company just didn't understand their customers.
    This.

    Denise and Conite also nailed it: what would you market on BB10? Seriously. It was a tough sell.
    02-02-17 02:24 PM
  2. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    You don't pick the "losers." You think outside the box. You go against the grain. You're the vanguard, not a sheep. Embrace your individuality and continue to choose the phones YOU want, not what the media wants for you.
    I figure electronics choice is a poor way to express individuality.
    john_v and Elephant_Canyon like this.
    02-02-17 02:26 PM
  3. Nguyen1's Avatar
    Tell that to all those folks who use launchers or root their phones.

    Or teens.

    Or techno geeks.

    There's always a niche for anybody!

    The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.
    02-02-17 02:35 PM
  4. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Tell that to all those folks who use launchers or root their phones.

    Or teens.

    Or techno geeks.

    There's always a niche for anybody!

    The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.
    02-02-17 02:37 PM
  5. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Tell that to all those folks who use launchers or root their phones.

    Or teens.

    Or techno geeks.

    There's always a niche for anybody!
    ...which goes against the idea that folks make choices based on media influence, no?
    02-02-17 02:41 PM
  6. Nguyen1's Avatar
    Steve Martin is great! I only found out he plays banjo! That earns a thumbs up in my book.

    The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.
    02-02-17 02:46 PM
  7. sidtek50's Avatar
    I feel like I can give you the EXACT reason why BB / BB10 failed. Some of you wont like it. Some of you may disagree. But these are my opinions and i've spent thousands of pounds (£) on mobile phones so I feel more than eligible to put forward my theory.

    I'll start by saying this: around 2007, when Steve Jobs was about to announce the iPhone. Look at what phones were available. I think ALL Blackberry phones had a physical keyboard (pbk). The pkb was selling extremely well - so much so, that competitors began copying Blackberry. Soon enough, Nokia had a pbk device. HTC had a pkb device. Motorola had a pbk device. The market became saturated with pkb's. Apple, meanwhile was watching from afar. Apple was brewing ideas on how it could enter a very crowded market and compete. Watch this video from 6 minutes 4 seconds in, then continue on with my post;



    The problem with pbk's, is that the screen size was affected - often leaving a horrible resolution. I remember setting up HTC phones in my old workplace and it was the. most. horrible. task. ever. I truly thought about leaving work because configuring phones all day every day on a pkb with tiny screens for customers was the pits. HTC actually had the foresight to give you a stylus. As Steve Jobs mentions in the video - they were a true and utter disaster at the time. You could lose them - the screens were not responsive yet. Meanwhile, Apple were brewing ideas.

    A long story short: Apple came out with the original iPhone. It was focused on....the consumer. You. Me. Your mother. Your friend's sister. Your nan. It was for everybody. It could play music, browse the web, had multimedia features and best of all: no pkb. Apple innovated. Approx a year later, Android was gently released. What was Blackberry's response to Android and Apple?? It released more phones with a pbk. BB started adding multimedia functionality to their phones. They only began really looking at the consumer when they started to get some competition in town.

    But some of you might say: "Hang on, Blackberry were still making a lot of money". Yes, they were. But they didn't innovate. The choice to tie down BB OS to BIS was probably one of the single most dumb decisions Blackberry ever made. I recently broke out my BB 9320 and I was absolutely horrified to re-discover that I couldn't do certain tasks on it with wifi, as you could on the iPhone. You needed BIS. Meanwhile. Apple were brewing MORE ideas. Blackberry's response? More pbk devices and they looked towards a tablet.

    Apple had by now created the beginnings of a strong ecosystem. The app store had fantastic, branded apps. Developers couldn't wait to take advantage of the huge screen (in comparison to pbk devices). You had people desperate to learn objective-c (at the time). The original iPhone had a physical mute button, it was the thinnest phone available, the design was seamless (not many visible screws at all). iTunes was there to collect your media and allow you to push it to your device. What Apple did, was nothing short of "magical" (as Steve Jobs said).

    Blackberry released the Playbook - which I actually still have!! And it was just trash. It took forever to turn on (and please, please don't say "oh its security!"). No, the thing was overpriced, it was slow. The app store even back then (2011) wasn't exactly flying. I personally think this is when Blackberry began to die. In short: Blackberry saw pkb devices were selling - so their strategy was "lets make loads of pbk devices with relatively low specs". That was virtually it. Apple and Google to a certain extent, both thought: "we need to reach consumers. That's where we're going to make serious money. Consumers buy the phones. Then they buy the apps. If they like the phones, they'll be repeat customers. Each phone will have more features. The OS will develop and evolve significantly".

    And you look at Android and iOS - both OS's were relatively basic when they came out. When they came out, i'd still say BB OS was ahead. But they innovated like crazy. New features were added at a ridiculously fast pace, whereas Blackberry didn't change that much - they just kept pumping out more pbk devices which by this point, after 2011 - no one wanted pbk anymore (apart from a the BB die-hards). I'm talking about the MASS market. The BB die-hards no longer represented the mass market.

    And thus, we're here now. We represent 0.1% of the market because Apple essentially changed the game for everyone. Nokia, Blackberry.... they struggled to adjust to the new market. Motorola managed to adapt. Samsung and Sony managed to adapt - Samsung even managed to become a household name for Android phones. So, TL;DR - Apple and Google innovated like crazy. Blackberry stuck with virtually the same business model and released the playbook (trash device) and really allowed Apple and Google to sneak up from behind and capture the mass market.

    Can you blame Blackberry? That's another topic for another day. But one thing is for sure: Blackberry kept making poor decisions, which is why we Blackberry fans are where we are now (in my humble opinion).
    Troy Tiscareno likes this.
    02-02-17 03:17 PM
  8. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Steve Martin is great! I only found out he plays banjo! That earns a thumbs up in my book.

    The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.
    He is a Wild and Crazy guy.....
    02-02-17 03:24 PM
  9. PantherBlitz's Avatar
    I think that BB10 was a GREAT OS, if it had been launched in 2007 - 2010, things might have turned out very differently.... but I doubt it. Because in general the BlackBerry company just didn't understand their customers.
    It's almost comical how they continuously fail to reach their stated audience. Trying to sell the Priv to enterprise customers was their final exercise in futility.
    02-02-17 03:24 PM
  10. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    It's almost comical how they continuously fail to reach their stated audience. Trying to sell the Priv to enterprise customers was their final exercise in futility.
    Enterprise is who TCL believes wants the Mercury.....

    I can almost believe that their might still be several million BBOS and now older BB10 (most were sold almost 4 years ago) phones in place in need of an upgrade path. But I've just heard that "hope" way to many times to believe it could be true.
    02-02-17 03:28 PM
  11. Packolypse's Avatar
    I like to think they didn't listen to their base. I bought the z10 when it first came out so I was late to the Blackberry world. From what I gathered was
    1. The user base wanted the BBOS UI but on a platform that didn't require constant battery pulls. BB10 was totally different and lacked many of the features of the OS that it was supposed to replace. While things improved over time it was to late and after the Playbook fiasco, users decided to move on.
    2. The user base wanted a bold 9900 but with upgraded specs and they gave everyone a z10 first and the Q10 6 months afterwards without a toolbelt. Again, ignoring your users.
    3. Including Android Runtime, this was guarantee to kill any hope of native third party development. They should have included the BBOS JVM instead to bring the existing user base over to the new platform and give developers time to get acclimated with the new system. Apple did this with carbon to make the transition to OSX easier for the user
    4. Timing. You were several years to late. See #3. You came out with a new platform that was incompatible with your previous platform and you hamstrung your Android Runtime support.
    5. Marketing would be last on my list of things they did wrong to make BB10 a failure.
    app_Developer likes this.
    02-02-17 04:07 PM
  12. sidtek50's Avatar
    ^^^

    I agree about the android runtime thing - but can you imagine what the situation would be like if there wasn't an android runtime?? For the past 3-4 days i've had an android phone in my amazon shopping cart. I'm this close "-" to pulling the trigger and buying it. That means i'll have to get rid of my Classic. But i'm looking at the core apps I use on a daily basis: whatsapp - only supported until June 2017. Snapchat - not on BB10 + android version wont work. Facebook Messenger - official client doesn't work, I can't get an older version to work and Face10 is a big battery drain on my Classic. Facebook via the web doesn't alert you to new messages, rendering it useless. Google Drive - wont work. VPN - again, it wont work (android version). Wickr - not on BB10 / android version wont work. No official paypal/eBay app. No gumtree app. I could go on.

    I'm struggling. I hate android with a passion - I believe it's Google's way of data-mining everything we do online. SMS messages can be sent back to Google if you don't turn off a certain option. Google drive - they'll have your data (unless it's encrypted). Youtube - they know what videos you watch. Gmail - they have all of your emails. Google maps - knows exactly where you've been. Chrome - sends LOTS of data back to Google about your browsing. Google to me, is evil. However, their services are so damn good that most people look past all of that.

    If the Classic had a higher runtime, i'd keep it and love every second of it. I've said it in another thread, but lack of apps/old runtime will the the reason I ditch my Classic.
    02-02-17 04:24 PM
  13. ankenn's Avatar
    Yeah, endless talk about what happened. Certainly a mix of lower than ideal specs, poor marketing, slack management always late are implicated, but I reckon it was something more profound. BB made a phone for a virtually non-existent user and failed to find out what the existent user really was. The corporate exec working on the phone was just a myth. I am the only person I know who actually properly works with their phone (as if it were an iPad say). Most people hardly know what all the features of their phone are. Almost everyone I know use their phone to take photos and swap them, message and now and then call someone or listen to music. Nothing else. A Blackberry phone was created consistently for a mythical phone worker who didn't really exist. Statistics bear this out. Half of smart phone users use between 6 and 10 apps in a week. Most use just 3 apps most of the time. After 30 days both for Android and iOS a mere 3.5% app downloads are still used. The app ecosystem as a cause of OS10 failure is clearly a more complex argument. I used tp play chess a lot. I have a chess app on my phone. I haven't used it in a year. While Blackberry makes a phone that is perfect for me in all ways that matter, no one I know has a BB10 device or has ever had one. In any normal company this should have been a flag way back but it wasn't. Blackberry needed a sociologist on their team.
    sidtek50 likes this.
    02-02-17 04:42 PM
  14. sidtek50's Avatar
    100% agree ankenn. I agree with the part about the "mythical worker". A worker typically isn't allowed emails on his/her phone and if they are, they're issued with a handset of their companies' choice. Of course there are some exceptions to that. I just can't wrap my head around why Blackberry didn't innovate and market their phones to the general consumer. As I said in my very long post above, it's almost as if their strategy was to just make pkb phones until no-one wanted them anymore. I firmly believe that without Apple introducing a touchscreen phone without a pkb, Blackberry probably wouldn't have considered it for a lot longer (ignoring tablets). If I was a member of Blackberrry's board team, and I saw Apple's announcement in 2007, i'd have been looking to hire a great innovator - someone who knew the market. To me, Blackberry didn't know their market. They didn't know their userbase. And this was how they lost their seat at the throne.
    02-02-17 05:01 PM
  15. Nguyen1's Avatar
    Look up "how BlackBerry blew it: the inside story."

    It is a huge article online. Someone posted a link somewhere on crackberry. I can't remember where but you can search online and read it. Fascinating stuff about BlackBerry mindset between 2007 through release of z10.

    The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.
    02-02-17 05:22 PM
  16. markmall's Avatar
    Very true, and it's such a simple thing to understand and blows my mind that people don't get it. When you get 'burned' you lose faith in a brand. And a tarnished brand name is very difficult to overcome.

    I've had 3 Mazda cars. All three left a bad taste in my mouth in one way or another. I will not ever buy another, regardless of what they offer. It could check off all the boxes I want when shopping for a car, but if it's a Mazda I won't even consider it.

    Blackberry Poptart SE - Cricket Wireless
    So what??? Is Volkswagon going out of business because of their massive diesel car scandal that undermined the faith of consumers and has generated far more headlines than BlackBerry's problems releasing BB10.

    You think you reverse the ship just because the first hardware release was not great? Or the OS needed more polish after the initial release?

    Corporations have to have more inner strength and belief in their products. They can't panic like BlackBerry obviously did -- all the way up to the BoD. And... they use marketing messages to change public perception of the corporate identity.

    Posted via CB10
    02-02-17 05:31 PM
  17. conite's Avatar

    Corporations have to have more inner strength and belief in their products. They can't panic like BlackBerry obviously did -- all the way up to the BoD. And... they use marketing messages to change public perception of the corporate identity.

    Posted via CB10
    But where does it end? How bad does it have to get? 6 months into BB10 and BlackBerry had a catastrophe on their hands. Its cash burn rate would have had them out of business inside of 12 months.
    02-02-17 05:40 PM
  18. PantherBlitz's Avatar
    Enterprise is who TCL believes wants the Mercury.....

    I can almost believe that their might still be several million BBOS and now older BB10 (most were sold almost 4 years ago) phones in place in need of an upgrade path. But I've just heard that "hope" way to many times to believe it could be true.
    If they had released the Mercury instead of a $700 slider in 2015 they may have sold enough to stay in the game -- or at least reduced the return rate.

    I tell myself the same thing you do. The holdouts have to buy something sooner than later... but it seems that they are perpetually waiting for mythical devices if these forums are to be believed.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    02-02-17 05:41 PM
  19. markmall's Avatar
    If they had released the Mercury instead of a $700 slider in 2015 they may have sold enough to stay in the game -- or at least reduced the return rate.

    I tell myself the same thing you do. The holdouts have to buy something sooner than later... but it seems that they are perpetually waiting for mythical devices if these forums are to be believed.
    My initial take on the Priv -- aside from the name -- was why a form factor that was highly niche even when BlackBerry was reigning supreme and is more expensive to build and will wear out with moving parts?

    Posted via CB10
    02-02-17 05:44 PM
  20. conite's Avatar
    My initial take on the Priv -- aside from the name -- was why a form factor that was highly niche even when BlackBerry was reigning supreme and is more expensive to build and will wear out with moving parts?

    Posted via CB10
    Louks thought was that they were bringing something unique to the Android space, where they are also used to a 16:9 screen.

    They thought a 3:2 device would push the niche too far.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    02-02-17 05:46 PM
  21. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Look up "how BlackBerry blew it: the inside story."

    It is a huge article online.
    How BlackBerry blew it: The inside story - The Globe and Mail
    Velocitymj likes this.
    02-02-17 06:39 PM
  22. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    I tell myself the same thing you do. The holdouts have to buy something sooner than later... but it seems that they are perpetually waiting for mythical devices if these forums are to be believed.
    Most of the "holdouts" switched to Android and iOS long ago. There are very few true "holdouts" left.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    02-02-17 06:41 PM
  23. markmall's Avatar
    But where does it end? How bad does it have to get? 6 months into BB10 and BlackBerry had a catastrophe on their hands. Its cash burn rate would have had them out of business inside of 12 months.
    Again you exaggerate and mislead with your points. They had a one time negative event with the release and gross overstock of Z10 devices.

    They made their situation worse with their freakout and public announcement that they were giving up. They eventually obtained financing -- more than they needed.

    Chen over compensated or intentionally doomed the devices that preceded him -- like the Passport -- by giving them and the brand no support. Only when the Priv came out did he roll out t he red carpet.

    Posted via CB10
    02-02-17 07:04 PM
  24. markmall's Avatar
    Louks thought was that they were bringing something unique to the Android space, where they are also used to a 16:9 screen.

    They thought a 3:2 device would push the niche too far.
    I should add that no one outside of Crackberry readers knew it existed -- despite Chen's increased ad spend. It languished at a few cell phone carrier's shelves without being charged and beat up.

    Posted via CB10
    02-02-17 07:06 PM
  25. app_Developer's Avatar
    So what??? Is Volkswagon going out of business because of their massive diesel car scandal that undermined the faith of consumers and has generated far more headlines than BlackBerry's problems releasing BB10.
    VW and BB are not very comparable. VW is enormous, partially state owned, the largest car maker in the world, and owner of the most profitable car brand in the world.

    Their most profitable brand was only lightly affected by the scandal (diesel Panameras and Cayennes only). VW's largest single market (China) was also almost completely unaffected.

    BB is tiny in comparison, and has a small fraction of the cash on hand to weather a storm.
    Troy Tiscareno likes this.
    02-02-17 07:08 PM
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