02-17-18 07:44 PM
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  1. Winstorm's Avatar
    Whilst I partially agree with you, my view is that BlackBerry lagged behind in the smartphone race for, far too long, so even when it looked as though they were on the rebound and making a few good strides it was, perhaps, too late.

    Technology can be compared with good, competitive sports. There are many good, promising competitors in the race but unless you get outfront, strong and fast, you are likely to loose the race and fail despite all your efforts.

    Personally, I think that BlackBerry is still one of the best smartphone companies around. Their products have been well-designed with a serious, productive purpose in mind. The software is very solid, like a well-baked, tasting cake without too much icing on but that's, perhaps, one of the main problems, unfortunately.

    I have been using BlackBerry since the Pearl 8100, upgrading to the Bold 9780, then Z10 STL-1 (very poor hardware build) and Classic (one of the best builds). However, BlackBerry has made some fatal mistakes along the way with a few poorly designed products. They have also run too slow and lagged behind too long when the better products looked promising. This has, in part, negatively affected their image and viability going forward. Just like in sports, technology companies can't afford to make too many mistakes, especially when lagging behind.

    Despite my critique, though, I'm still a proud, diehard supporter of the brand, holding onto my BlackBerry Classic. And, recently, I even got the DTEK50 (in use as of this posting) which I felt was my best choice in moving the Android way.

    Admittedly, no one product will ever be perfect and it can't be, otherwise what's the point in having competition. In spite of all the shortcomings observed, my first choice still remains with BlackBerry.
    BBeast likes this.
    02-01-17 07:39 PM
  2. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Just read the book "Losing the Signal", and you'll see all the mistakes made by RIM/BlackBerry.
    02-01-17 07:45 PM
  3. StephanieMaks's Avatar
    Why did BB10 fail? It was a half-baked product that was both conceived and then shipped several years too late, and when it was finally available it offered nothing that the masses wanted desperately enough to turn their backs on the devices & ecosystems they had already grown accustomed to.

    Yes, it appealed (and still appeals) to a small number of folks. But it's never had anything that the masses wanted bad enough, it's never been able to do something the incumbants couldn't.

    Anecdotal story relating to the marketing myth: Once upon a time my sister really wanted a BlackBerry. Curve I think, but she was stuck in a contract at the time. Year or two later the contract was over and she could get a new phone. She ended up with an iPhone. Later, when BB10 devices came out, I'd tell her about them. She'd be surprised BBRY was still in business. Then go back to her iPhone. A few months would pass, I'd mention BB10 again. She'd be surprised BBRY was still in business. Then go back to her iPhone. It's not that BB10 wasn't known to people - it's that it wasn't memorable. Again, because it didn't offer anything that you didn't already have: BB10 had nothing worth making people switch.
    02-01-17 08:06 PM
  4. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    Every time one of these thread starts, someone claims that there was no marketing. Then, longtime CB members tell them that there was marketing. People actually bought the Z10. Then things went downhill rather quickly, due to the reasons that I already mentioned. It was a failure because the device hardware and software were malfunctioning, and the app store did not have the name apps.

    Those people that bought the Z10 (and the PlayBook) felt tricked by BlackBerry and most of them will not buy anymore devices because they would not believe a good marketing campaign after having such poor first-hand experience.
    02-01-17 08:28 PM
  5. app_Developer's Avatar
    Every time one of these thread starts, someone claims that there was no marketing. Then, longtime CB members tell them that there was marketing. People actually bought the Z10. Then things went downhill rather quickly, due to the reasons that I already mentioned. It was a failure because the device hardware and software were malfunctioning, and the app store did not have the name apps.

    Those people that bought the Z10 (and the PlayBook) felt tricked by BlackBerry and most of them will not buy anymore devices because they would not believe a good marketing campaign after having such poor first-hand experience.
    It turns out it's impossible for advertising or brand to get people to buy and keep (i.e. not return) something that doesn't work for them.
    02-01-17 08:57 PM
  6. app_Developer's Avatar
    Is it just me, or do we never hear the great marketing idea that would have saved BB10? Is that marketing idea just a myth that keeps getting brought up on CB?
    I'd be happy if someone just committed to how much money it would take to "adequately" market/promote BB10. You can't actually reach that many people across the globe with $10M. With $100M+ you sometimes can (if you're very efficient), but the problem is you have to sell a lot of stuff to make it work. Imagine if you spent $100M promoting BB10 and then only sold 1M phones. That would be an insane $100 per phone. That's just unsustainable.
    02-01-17 09:01 PM
  7. onlybuggin's Avatar
    It's simpler than all of that. It's all about numbers. BlackBerry arguably created the first smartphone that truly use able as an extension of your other connected life. Along came apple with their phone. Apple was already in the pocket of so many people with Ipods. Do you remember all of the other media players that slowly faded away leaving only the ipod? This new device fit well with the ipod and was super familiar.

    Still no problem as the necessity to do real work was well inside of bb's camp though apple was making in roads.

    Then came Google and the android os to power a smartphone; open source code available to anybody who wanted to make a smartphone or tablet that Apple or BlackBerry or windows.

    What apple didn't take with its captive consumer base, Android took through shear volume and,quantity and availability. The only way for anyone to compete would have been to have had their os out and widely available ahead of Android.

    That didn't happen and so here we are. It is what it is. I'm not happy with the current situation and hope at least a,little everyday for a change bit I re organize the android is the future for BlackBerry.

    Ironically, that's what BlackBerry is doing now. But what's left to win?

    Posted via CB10
    02-01-17 09:21 PM
  8. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    I'd be happy if someone just committed to how much money it would take to "adequately" market/promote BB10. You can't actually reach that many people across the globe with $10M. With $100M+ you sometimes can (if you're very efficient), but the problem is you have to sell a lot of stuff to make it work. Imagine if you spent $100M promoting BB10 and then only sold 1M phones. That would be an insane $100 per phone. That's just unsustainable.
    BB stated that they spent $90+M marketing BB10 during the first half of 2013 - by far their biggest marketing effort.

    That got them about 2.5M phones sold (not counting returns) When they were expecting to sell 15-20M. The reason sales continued to be as good as they were (in terms of phones sold) was because they wrote down the value of their huge overstock of Z10s and sold them off at a huge discount. Otherwise they'd likely still be sitting on them.

    It's absolutely true that BB10 was over after the first six months. By September, the company was up for sale.

    Kevin listed in 2012 a bunch of things BB would have to do right in order for BB10 to succeed. Not a single item was accomplished. That kind of says it all.
    02-01-17 10:02 PM
  9. app_Developer's Avatar
    But what's left to win?
    EMM (where they already have a good position), Car Infotainment (where they have a great position), EOT, ADAS.

    That's where they plan to find their wins.
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    02-01-17 10:07 PM
  10. southlander's Avatar
    After listening to losing the signal the rise and fall of blackberry I think overall it was just competition from silicon Valley. BlackBerry was always worried about the big tech players turning their attention to its core highly profitable handset business. Too many highly capable players with vast resources moved in. Moreover the consumer space was not well understood by BlackBerry. And that's where the big profits and platform building opportunities were.
    Laura Knotek and BigBadWulf like this.
    02-01-17 11:58 PM
  11. drobbie's Avatar
    Without a strong app ecosystem; BB10 did not/does not have a chance
    02-01-17 11:59 PM
  12. markmall's Avatar
    Very ironic that you consider your opinion not speculative. Although you feel that marketing could have saved BB10, you cannot offer any real proof of how.
    When did I state speculation as fact? What fact? Of course, it is my opinion that marketing killed BB10 more than lack of apps.

    If you need more proof, read my other posts on this site. But one truism says it all: a company can't sell a product that potential consumers don't know exists.
    02-02-17 12:02 AM
  13. Nguyen1's Avatar
    +1

    The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.
    02-02-17 12:17 AM
  14. markmall's Avatar
    It turns out it's impossible for advertising or brand to get people to buy and keep (i.e. not return) something that doesn't work for them.
    Is this why Chen spent more on marketing the Priv but couldn't sell any?
    02-02-17 12:26 AM
  15. guygardner73's Avatar
    Here we go again.

    Posted via CB10
    Tim-ANC and MC_A_DOT like this.
    02-02-17 12:27 AM
  16. markmall's Avatar
    BB stated that they spent $90+M marketing BB10 during the first half of 2013 - by far their biggest marketing effort.

    That got them about 2.5M phones sold (not counting returns) When they were expecting to sell 15-20M. The reason sales continued to be as good as they were (in terms of phones sold) was because they wrote down the value of their huge overstock of Z10s and sold them off at a huge discount. Otherwise they'd likely still be sitting on them.

    It's absolutely true that BB10 was over after the first six months. By September, the company was up for sale.

    Kevin listed in 2012 a bunch of things BB would have to do right in order for BB10 to succeed. Not a single item was accomplished. That kind of says it all.
    They badly spent their marketing dollars and stopped after their freakout.

    Then they never rehabilitated the brand when everyone thought they went bankrupt. This continues to haunt the company.
    02-02-17 12:28 AM
  17. MC_A_DOT's Avatar
    Please stop these threads.......................PLEASE
    02-02-17 07:11 AM
  18. kvndoom's Avatar
    Very ironic that you consider your opinion not speculative.
    If you read his post history you'll see a lot of that...

    Blackberry Poptart SE - Cricket Wireless
    eshropshire likes this.
    02-02-17 07:15 AM
  19. kvndoom's Avatar
    Every time one of these thread starts, someone claims that there was no marketing. Then, longtime CB members tell them that there was marketing. People actually bought the Z10. Then things went downhill rather quickly, due to the reasons that I already mentioned. It was a failure because the device hardware and software were malfunctioning, and the app store did not have the name apps.

    Those people that bought the Z10 (and the PlayBook) felt tricked by BlackBerry and most of them will not buy anymore devices because they would not believe a good marketing campaign after having such poor first-hand experience.
    Very true, and it's such a simple thing to understand and blows my mind that people don't get it. When you get 'burned' you lose faith in a brand. And a tarnished brand name is very difficult to overcome.

    I've had 3 Mazda cars. All three left a bad taste in my mouth in one way or another. I will not ever buy another, regardless of what they offer. It could check off all the boxes I want when shopping for a car, but if it's a Mazda I won't even consider it.

    Blackberry Poptart SE - Cricket Wireless
    ubizmo and Fret Madden like this.
    02-02-17 07:22 AM
  20. Dmd74's Avatar
    Just to state it I absolutely love BlackBerry brand and have used devices from OS 5 through to BB10. I even have a Playbook so my opinion is not to bash but to make some constructive criticism. Although we would never know now, it wasn't the brand or the marketing which also affected BB10 but it was mainly the APP gap as people prefer a simple getitall. I am very well aware that you can get almost any app working with the Android runtime BUT here is the thing. I believe that the first thing which started kicking the bucket was the inclusion of Android runtime itself! Let me explain.... after BlackBerry introduced the Android apps using Amazon store, developers just stopped caring about making any native apps. Why did BBOS had much more apps which worked with very little glitches? Because devs were "forced" in doing them. By opening the Android runtime on BB10, BlackBerry shot themselves in the head. Although at the time it may had sounded like a good idea to bridge the app gap, it really was the first nail on the coffin for BB10. At least that is my opinion. I really dread the day I will be forced to swap to Android (Mercury would be my first device) since I really prefer the touch of buttons and can't handle never any virtual keyboard no matter who is making it. Is really amazing how they haven't yet managed to put the "peek and flow" function on the android. I doubt it would be that difficult for BlackBerry to develop it into the Android OS! They did it from scratch for BB10! I really wish the best for the company. I love my Classic and wouldn't change it for any other device. It makes me productive all day long and I really appreciate how much thought was given into it. I am a bit saddened that the trackpad dissapears completely but what can we do.

    What do you people think?

    Posted via CB10
    In my opinion, its easy...complacency. RIM held the lion's share of the market but failed to see the shift that was before them. Android came about as well as iPhone and Blackberry made no adjustments. Had BB10 been developed and brought to market in 2007 or 2008 we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. People would be lining up to get the new Blackberry instead of the iPhone. I would love this alternate reality but alas the brains behind BB failed and we are stuck facing the inevitable demise of a great OS in BB10 and the choice to either go iOS or Android.

    A little side note, I used to love the choices that we had back just a few years ago. There was Android, Blackberry, iOS, WebOS. There were offerings from Windows Mobile and Nokia. There were options that honestly we no longer have. I feel that in large part we suffer because of this.
    Ronindan likes this.
    02-02-17 09:28 AM
  21. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    When did I state speculation as fact? What fact? Of course, it is my opinion that marketing killed BB10 more than lack of apps.

    If you need more proof, read my other posts on this site. But one truism says it all: a company can't sell a product that potential consumers don't know exists.
    They also can't sell a product that doesn't meet a customer's expectations and needs.... no matter how much they might market or advertise it.

    Apps were a big part of why BB10 failed, but generally just about everything BlackBerry was doing was wrong.

    Z10 was a generation behind, but priced like other flagships
    BB10 was a beta product at best... for almost a full year.
    BlackBerry simply could not compete with Android OEMS on hardware design or pricing
    There was nothing really special about BB10 that would draw users away from the more established platforms.... including BBOS.
    BlackBerry did nothing to try and make the transition from BBOS to BB10 a nature one.
    Marketing... I agree that it wasn't very effective, they spent too little in showing what the phones could do. But they did do a LOT of marketing in the Spring and Summer of 2013. After that, there really was no reason or money to keep doing it.


    I think that BB10 was a GREAT OS, if it had been launched in 2007 - 2010, things might have turned out very differently.... but I doubt it. Because in general the BlackBerry company just didn't understand their customers.
    02-02-17 09:58 AM
  22. conite's Avatar


    I think that BB10 was a GREAT OS, if it had been launched in 2007 - 2010, things might have turned out very differently.... but I doubt it. Because in general the BlackBerry company just didn't understand their customers.
    Agreed. The big mistakes were made in 2007. Everything since is just rearranging deck chairs.
    02-02-17 10:07 AM
  23. Soulstream's Avatar
    In 2013, for most, buying a smartphone meant having access to all the apps. Why? Because of Android. Let me explain why.

    In 2013, people were thought that no matter what they bought they had the apps. Most didn't even know about Android specifically. They knew that buying a Samsung got you all the apps. Buying a LG did the same. The same for HTC, Sony, Motorola etc. So because everyone was using Android, the average consumer was expecting the apps.

    Everybody had the apps except for two manufacturers: Nokia and BB. The launch version of BB10 was a huge mess, in terms of stability; as a dev myself, I hated developing for it. The first trully good OS version was 10.2.1.

    And as shown by Nokia and Microsoft, more marketing money doesn't automatically translate to huge adoption. Microsoft pumped a lot of money into Nokia (especially in Europe where the brand was the strongest) and WP10 barely registers in the market share statistics anymore (just as BB10). And Microsoft actually has more cash reserves than BB ever had and even they realized that fighting against iOS and Android for the general public market is a losing battle.
    02-02-17 11:21 AM
  24. Drg84's Avatar
    There's a lot here that is true. But I've been wondering this all before, and I seem to pick the "losers". And there's a common theme. I had nokia symbian phones from 2008 to 2012. Great phones, astounding battery life, durable hardware. But no apps. The ovi store was empty.
    In 2012 nokia was going to windows phone 8. I thought great! I'll just get on Verizon, grab the new 822 and everything will be perfect. It's a windows machine, means I can load my own apps and......I'm locked out? Return that week.
    Bought the q10 right after the 10.2 update. And who would have though, I can sideload bar files which are converted apks. Neat. But native apps run smoother. So I'll stick with those. And there were still new native apps being made right up until the amazon store showed up. Then there practicality no new apps. Except the ones replacing features we had before.
    But here's where the story changes. This year the Mrs asked what I wanted for my birthday. And without hesitation I said the passport. Because the phones unique, the keyboard is good and I know it'll last. The q10 worked well from late 2013 to 2016. The passport works well too. I have only had to use my backup moto g once or twice because of a bad Ota update, and not realizing the sim difference between the q10 and passport
    What I've learned during all this is apps matter. Good software matters. Hardware seems to matter a bit less. The moto g is an okay phone, at a good price, with decent software and full app support. The iphone is pretty and expensive with good software, full app support, and terrible hardware. The blackberry passport was/ is a great phone with good hardware, great software and terrible app support. As for the Lumias? Why did they never make a keyboard lumia???

    Posted via CB10
    02-02-17 01:54 PM
  25. Nguyen1's Avatar
    You don't pick the "losers." You think outside the box. You go against the grain. You're the vanguard, not a sheep. Embrace your individuality and continue to choose the phones YOU want, not what the media wants for you.

    The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.
    02-02-17 02:13 PM
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