[markmall]

So, you order 10 million BB10 handsets and launch with a $100 million ad campaign. They look good and customers start buying them. What happens when they get home and find that their daily-use apps don't work well or work at all? Do you really expect them to install some sort of work-around or third-party substitute? How many of your friends and family and friends use BB10 devices given all of the advice and support available from you? It sounds like a lot of expensive returns which carriers absolutely hate. That's how you end up launching phones with no carrier support.

For quite a while it was not hard to install Android apps. Besides this people know it's a smaller OS going in. They would make the same decision we did: give up some app functionality (if they used Netflix or... whatever in 2013) and get a pro grade OS.

I really don't think there were that many apps adult professionals needed from Android in 2013-14.

Posted via CB10

[Soulstream]

For quite a while it was not hard to install Android apps. Besides this people know it's a smaller OS going in. They would make the same decision we did: give up some app functionality (if they used Netflix or... whatever in 2013) and get a pro grade OS.

I really don't think there were that many apps adult professionals needed from Android in 2013-14.

Posted via CB10

I think you overestimate the average consumer. Most consumers don't know which OS they have installed on their phone. They know that their phone is an iPhone, a Samsung, an LG... etc. And because everyone is using Android now, the expectations of people when they buy a phone is to have all the apps. If the average consumers goes into a store and picks a phone at random there is a 95% chance that it will have all the apps.

Also most smartphone makers advertise just their OS functions or particular implementation of Android. Nobody even mentions apps because they know the average consumer expects them to be there. And in ads, all OSs looks great. I haven't seen a bad OS add for quite some time now.

Features like the Hub on BB10 must be actually be used by someone to really understand how good they are. A "your entire messaging log in one place" sound good, but it does no justice to the real efficiency of the hub.

[Tre Lawrence]

I think you overestimate the average consumer. Most consumers don't know which OS they have installed on their phone. They know that their phone is an iPhone, a Samsung, an LG... etc. And because everyone is using Android now, the expectations of people when they buy a phone is to have all the apps. If the average consumers goes into a store and picks a phone at random there is a 95% chance that it will have all the apps.

Also most smartphone makers advertise just their OS functions or particular implementation of Android. Nobody even mentions apps because they know the average consumer expects them to be there. And in ads, all OSs looks great. I haven't seen a bad OS add for quite some time now.

Features like the Hub on BB10 must be actually be used by someone to really understand how good they are. A "your entire messaging log in one place" sound good, but it does no justice to the real efficiency of the hub.

Wouldn't have believed that (that not everyone knows their OS) until I became involved on the customer service side of a major cross-platform app.

Very true... very many folks don't know what OS they have. What they do know is that friend/relative/co-worker has app x, and they want it too.

Unrelated, but I always thought that those TV ads that show a bank or restaurant and end with the "available on the App Store and Google Play" graphic do/did more for iOS and Android than any formal marketing campaign.

[early2bed]

For quite a while it was not hard to install Android apps. Besides this people know it's a smaller OS going in. They would make the same decision we did: give up some app functionality (if they used Netflix or... whatever in 2013) and get a pro grade OS.

I think you've 0 for 3, here. If it won't install and run easily then the average consumer won't do it. Most people think that a modern smartphone should offer any app they want, these days. Hardly any consumers would trade app functionality for whatever a "pro grade OS" is.

[app_Developer]

They would make the same decision we did: give up some app functionality (if they used Netflix or... whatever in 2013) and get a pro grade OS.

The thing is the people who are willing to give other things up just to support their favorite OS are the same people who are already buying the OS. You don't need to advertise to reach those people.

You advertise to reach other people. The people who aren't already fans. People who aren't fans are not going to find workarounds or rationalize or justify their purchase by saying "oh I can live without Netflix". They'll just return the phone and buy the one that works properly with Netflix.

Most people have absolutely no emotional attachment to some particular OS. They just want one that works with their car, their bank, their apps, their home entertainment system, the chat apps their friend are already on, etc, etc.

[gruv4u]

Poor promotional campaign and. Too little too late.

 Passport SE with vitamin (SR) 10.3.2.2474 (OS version 10.3.2.2639) on AT&T

[Tre Lawrence]

Hardly any consumers would trade app functionality for whatever a "pro grade OS" is. which translates to wh

Agreed. I think what most people would consider to be "pro-grade" would be the OS that allows them get things done efficiently.

The thing is the people who are willing to give other things up just to support their favorite OS are the same people who are already buying the OS. You don't need to advertise to reach those people.

You advertise to reach other people. The people who aren't already fans. People who aren't fans are not going to find workarounds or rationalize or justify their purchase by saying "oh I can live without Netflix". They'll just return the phone and buy the one that works properly with Netflix.

Most people have absolutely no emotional attachment to some particular OS. They just want one that works with their car, their bank, their apps, their home entertainment system, the chat apps their friend are already on, etc, etc.

Again, agreed.

[markmall]

I think you've 0 for 3, here. If it won't install and run easily then the average consumer won't do it. Most people think that a modern smartphone should offer any app they want, these days. Hardly any consumers would trade app functionality for whatever a "pro grade OS" is.

You are not selling to "average consumers." Does Ferrari sell to average consumers? Do people return their Ferrari when it does not have automatic windows? Or seat warmers? This is an extreme example, but the smartphone world was big enough for an OS that was not suitable for grandma.

Posted via CB10

[markmall]

The thing is the people who are willing to give other things up just to support their favorite OS are the same people who are already buying the OS. You don't need to advertise to reach those people.

You advertise to reach other people. The people who aren't already fans. People who aren't fans are not going to find workarounds or rationalize or justify their purchase by saying "oh I can live without Netflix". They'll just return the phone and buy the one that works properly with Netflix.

Most people have absolutely no emotional attachment to some particular OS. They just want one that works with their car, their bank, their apps, their home entertainment system, the chat apps their friend are already on, etc, etc.

Not if people don't know you exist. Then you do need to advertise or market to some degree. Not like Apple, but in other ways.

Posted via CB10

[early2bed]

Not if people don't know you exist. Then you do need to advertise or market to some degree. Not like Apple, but in other ways.

When someone says, to you, that they didn't know that BlackBerry still made smartphones, what they are saying is that they can't believe people still use them. They aren't saying that if only they had known they would have bought one.

[app_Developer]

Not if people don't know you exist. Then you do need to advertise or market to some degree. Not like Apple, but in other ways.

I think you missed my point. People who didn't know BB existed, and then are convinced to try it by an ad, are not going to have the commitment that fans have. They may try the phone b/c of an ad, but they won't rationalize their decision or give up other things the way fans do. So many, whom the ad has reached, will just return the phone when they find out what doesn't work.

[app_Developer]

You are not selling to "average consumers." Does Ferrari sell to average consumers? Do people return their Ferrari when it does not have automatic windows? Or seat warmers? This is an extreme example, but the smartphone world was big enough for an OS that was not suitable for grandma.

Actually, my Ferrari does have automatic one-touch windows. They just don't always work every day. Part of the charm.

What any Ferrari does do, though, is run on the same roads, use the same gas, run on the same tracks, use the same tire brand/types, pad materials, etc., etc. as other cars. They even support CarPlay on newer models. Compatibility isn't really an issue.

And obviously most people have a Ferrari as their 3rd or 4th car. BB10 is fun as a 3rd or 4th phone, also. Unfortunately few people have that many active phones, and BlackBerry can't get away with charging 10x-100x the price of a normal phone. BlackBerry is no Ferrari.

[markmall]

When someone says, to you, that they didn't know that BlackBerry still made smartphones, what they are saying is that they can't believe people still use them. They aren't saying that if only they had known they would have bought one.

I didn't know you were listening in and know my former assistant better than I do. I thought she was very clear.

Posted via CB10

[markmall]

Actually, my Ferrari does have automatic one-touch windows. They just don't always work every day. Part of the charm.

What any Ferrari does do, though, is run on the same roads, use the same gas, run on the same tracks, use the same tire brand/types, pad materials, etc., etc. as other cars. They even support CarPlay on newer models. Compatibility isn't really an issue.

And obviously most people have a Ferrari as their 3rd or 4th car. BB10 is fun as a 3rd or 4th phone, also. Unfortunately few people have that many active phones, and BlackBerry can't get away with charging 10x-100x the price of a normal phone. BlackBerry is no Ferrari.

Well, maybe you have one of those soft Ferraris. Is it an automatic? Those gate shifters sure are an annoyance. Ask car owners if they know what Ferrari is and if it still makes cars. Everyone knows, including enthusiasts. Now ask smartphone users. Nay, ask smartphone enthusiasts. None of them know. No one but us knows.

Blackberry is the daily driver if there are multiple phones. This is because it does the essentials well. It does actually work functions better than any other phone. I pull out my android phone when I want to go onto a dating app. Or use Uber or the other service.

Posted via CB10

[conite]

It does actually work functions better than any other phone.

Posted via CB10

That's only because you are in the unique and extremely rare situation where you don't need any apps for your work.

[CBCListener]

When someone says, to you, that they didn't know that BlackBerry still made smartphones, what they are saying is that they can't believe people still use them. They aren't saying that if only they had known they would have bought one.

Oh, I don't know about that. Just last week I pulled out my Passport at Best Buy to redeem a coupon. Both Blue Shirts gushed at it, saying they didn't know that BlackBerry was still making phones, and one who said she wished she'd known, because she might have bought one. So it's not a rejection of the brand. It is, however, dismal if not non-existent marketing.

Posted via CB10, on a BlackBerry Passport

[app_Developer]

Well, maybe you have one of those soft Ferraris. Is it an automatic? Those gate shifters sure are an annoyance. Ask car owners if they know what Ferrari is and if it still makes cars. Everyone knows, including enthusiasts. Now ask smartphone users. Nay, ask smartphone enthusiasts. None of them know. No one but us knows.

Blackberry is the daily driver if there are multiple phones. This is because it does the essentials well. It does actually work functions better than any other phone. I pull out my android phone when I want to go onto a dating app. Or use Uber or the other service.

Unfortunately Ferrari haven't made a 3-pedal car in quite some time. I really wish they would, but they moved on from those 10 years ago. They don't sell enough cars to make 2 tranny options economically viable. But anyway, I have no idea where you are going with the Ferrari comparison anyway. People pay money for clothing, shoes, pens, watches, etc with Ferrari logos on them. Just a totally different league when it comes to brand equity. I don't see what the comparison is there.

Back to BB, you will carry a second phone to do things your BB can't, because you are completely and utterly committed to the brand. There is nothing wrong with that, but BB doesn't need to spend any money to reach you or other fans. Most people just want a phone that does everything they want. Those are the people who have moved on to Android and iOS.

[markmall]

That's only because you are in the unique and extremely rare situation where you don't need any apps for your work.

Remember we are doing a post-mortem. I don't believe there were many apps you couldn't get on BB10 that anyone needed for work (normal work) in 2013 to 2015. I'm not even convinced this is true today. Bankers? Attorneys? Doctors? I don't believe it.

Posted via CB10

[markmall]

Oh, I don't know about that. Just last week I pulled out my Passport at Best Buy to redeem a coupon. Both Blue Shirts gushed at it, saying they didn't know that BlackBerry was still making phones, and one who said she wished she'd known, because she might have bought one. So it's not a rejection of the brand. It is, however, dismal if not non-existent marketing.

Posted via CB10, on a BlackBerry Passport

Tell them! Tell them! The stories are all over the Passport forum! It's happened to me so many times.

Posted via CB10

[markmall]

Unfortunately Ferrari haven't made a 3-pedal car in quite some time. I really wish they would, but they moved on from those 10 years ago. They don't sell enough cars to make 2 tranny options economically viable. But anyway, I have no idea where you are going with the Ferrari comparison anyway. People pay money for clothing, shoes, pens, watches, etc with Ferrari logos on them. Just a totally different league when it comes to brand equity. I don't see what the comparison is there.

Back to BB, you will carry a second phone to do things your BB can't, because you are completely and utterly committed to the brand. There is nothing wrong with that, but BB doesn't need to spend any money to reach you or other fans. Most people just want a phone that does everything they want. Those are the people who have moved on to Android and iOS.

I'm not committed to the brand. It works better, it syncs with Outlook and I have my privacy. And it has a huge pkb.

Posted via CB10

[Troy Tiscareno]

Tell them! Tell them! The stories are all over the Passport forum! It's happened to me so many times.

But, once informed, how many actually bought one?

Not very many, obviously.

[markmall]

But, once informed, how many actually bought one?

Not very many, obviously.

How would anyone know that? Do you think we sprinkled them with spydust and followed them around? Besides, you don't understand marketing. When strangers show so much interest in a smartphone in a world where they all look the same and work the same, it means it was a potential hit. There are a lot of iconoclasts out there that don't play candycrush.

[mrlahjr]

It failed because of Chen.

TMO  PP SE,SQW100-4/10.3.3.1435

[Tre Lawrence]

Oh, I don't know about that. Just last week I pulled out my Passport at Best Buy to redeem a coupon. Both Blue Shirts gushed at it, saying they didn't know that BlackBerry was still making phones, and one who said she wished she'd known, because she might have bought one. So it's not a rejection of the brand. It is, however, dismal if not non-existent marketing.

I believe you, but that narrative is probably one of the most oft repeated anecdotes on Windows Central, CrackBerry and even webOS Nation: folks in public that are surprised by a device they didn't know existed.

Not surprised enough to actually get one, but just enough to make the owner happy.

[markmall]

It failed because of Chen.

TMO  PP SE,SQW100-4/10.3.3.1435

Can you elaborate? I blame him for not giving it a chance and recognizing its value.