[M65c02]

Exactly what consumer is BB attempting to target with its OS10 devices and, if different, what is the actual type of consumer buying BB today?? How should (or will) BB market, or tweak, OS10 products to address a boost in unit sales!?!

I presume that the CB nation (BB forums) is a cross-section somewhat reflective of the overall BB faithful. But given the comments, its hard to determine what type of consumer BB is trying to reach or, alternatively, what the usage of the phone is for current OS10 devices.
We can all agree that the vast majority of Q10 purchasers awaited another BB (Qwerty) keyboard device and purchased blindly on spec. After an initial (baby) surge to the Z from holders of legacy BB phones that had a more general (not keyboard) interest in sticking with the BB logo and, perhaps, hopeful of an upgrade with some holdovers from OS7 (6 and/or 5) yet also with features of IOS and Droid, there seems to be a disconnect. I have my own ideas but just curious if there's any focus out there .....

Might be nice to define prior to the end of the month or, if undefined, that speaks volumes too !!

[RyanGermann]

Put simply, I think the "Keep Moving" campaign is code for "BB10 is for people who don't wile away hours playing with their smartphone: they pick it up to communicate or look something up, then go and act on what they just did." People who live their lives outside of their smartphone, not inside it.

For me, the 'app gap' is only a concern as far as overall viability of the BB10 platform is concerned: my hour-by-hour appreciation of BB10 isn't based on how many ways I have to stave off 10 seconds of boredom or how many new apps appear in BlackBerry World every day. But for some people, app discovery is a hobby in and of itself: they may not actually use the apps, but they are constantly looking for new apps for no reason other than to experience something new. I think there are statistics floating around that suggest most apps people download go largely unused... I just wiped my iPad and when I restored it, I went through the "not on this iPad" list and only reinstalled a fraction what I had downloaded in the past.

Unfortunately the number of people who can stand being away from a screen for more than 30 seconds at a time are few and getting fewer all the time... so filling that app gap is important so that BB10 has the critical mass of users required to keep advancing the core OS which is what I think most hardcore BB10 fans really want. Of course Appdicts also get the benefits of the best OS if BB10 thrives, so we all win when there are more apps on BB10.

If BB10 went open source I'd just be so relieved, knowing that there would continue to be development of the OS even if no one bothers putting out new apps.

[fromlid]

The only sure market I can really see is the existing Blackberry user. That would mean that cross-platform BBM is a mistake because that would make it easier for people to jump ship to Android or iOS. No, I don't believe that the BBM experience will cause a lot of people to try Blackberry hardware. I think that's quite a stretch.

[kbz1960]

Didn't Thor say bb people? Not sure what that means besides those who don't expect much.

[Troy Tiscareno]

Put simply, I think the "Keep Moving" campaign is code for "BB10 is for people who don't wile away hours playing with their smartphone: they pick it up to communicate or look something up, then go and act on what they just did." People who live their lives outside of their smartphone, not inside it.

That's funny, given that the reason the term "CrackBerry" came into existence is because of people who walked around staring at their BB screen all day long... So, you're saying that BB10 is targeted at non-BB users?

[M65c02]

That's funny, given that the reason the term "CrackBerry" came into existence is because of people who walked around staring at their BB screen all day long... So, you're saying that BB10 is targeted at non-BB users?

I think that the roll-over from legacy BB has been (obviously) much (s)lower than expected. In part, this is because a very high percentage of the 70+mm (supposed BB users) at OS10 roll-out were either rental/month-to-month--or non-contract--users that came late to the ballgame and, thereby, more price sensitive. And, many are/were less app and function driven than those that were the original BB consumers 5-10 years ago. They don't need a modern smart phone--whether BB or Apple--or are not going to pay the price but rather wait until they are given away or for under $50 w/o monthly surcharge.

BB, as with all companies, looks to have its current client base to buy into each successive generation. To live off that or to take for granted too long, however, is to die. Sure Apple can market two new phones with few improvements each year and count on 350mm(?) near immediate rollovers (or repeats) from its current users; at one time BB could do the same--albeit based on a much smaller starting number.

But today, even at the highest rollover % now possible, the rollover $$$ aren't enough to keep BB moving. In some sense, that's why BB has to be a whole new company with a new generation of first time (some returning) BB consumers that will allow BB to fly into the future. It appears that BB didn't follow through with this concept when introducing OS10....great new concept but who are you intending to sell too ... other than some current, long-awaiting BB legacy users !?!?!

[M65c02]

Put simply, I think the "Keep Moving" campaign is code for "BB10 is for people who don't wile away hours playing with their smartphone: they pick it up to communicate or look something up, then go and act on what they just did." People who live their lives outside of their smartphone, not inside it.

For me, the 'app gap' is only a concern as far as overall viability of the BB10 platform is concerned: my hour-by-hour appreciation of BB10 isn't based on how many ways I have to stave off 10 seconds of boredom or how many new apps appear in BlackBerry World every day. But for some people, app discovery is a hobby in and of itself: they may not actually use the apps, but they are constantly looking for new apps for no reason other than to experience something new. I think there are statistics floating around that suggest most apps people download go largely unused... I just wiped my iPad and when I restored it, I went through the "not on this iPad" list and only reinstalled a fraction what I had downloaded in the past.

Unfortunately the number of people who can stand being away from a screen for more than 30 seconds at a time are few and getting fewer all the time... so filling that app gap is important so that BB10 has the critical mass of users required to keep advancing the core OS which is what I think most hardcore BB10 fans really want. Of course Appdicts also get the benefits of the best OS if BB10 thrives, so we all win when there are more apps on BB10.

If BB10 went open source I'd just be so relieved, knowing that there would continue to be development of the OS even if no one bothers putting out new apps.

Agreed, Agreed, Agreed, Agreed with each of your respective paragraphs. The "Keep Moving" campaign may have been a start but I see little follow through. The App gap is significant and unquestionable but isn't supposed to matter to the user that BB OS10 is designed to attract. Similarly, your point is well taken about a (very large) segment of smart phone consumers that live, sleep, and eat with their phones as their (seemingly) closest companions--a definite cultural shift and addiction to say the least. YES, and I have little doubt but that the vast majority of apps largely do go unused even as some are requisite for reaching a critical mass of sales in today's smart phone market.

Notwithstanding, the issues of apps was a point of debate on CB going back to the intro month of Z. It was so painfully obvious that in missing some apps a tremendous cut in potential unit sales would occur--and critical unit sales (w)couldn't be met. Still, many stuck to the old BB theme and success of a decade ago where such functions/features weren't necessary.

BB, then today, was slow in having requisite apps readied, or placing incentives with developers to speed up the process for OS10. Even having made great strides this summer, there may still not be enough potential consumers for OS10 until yet a few more apps are developed/smoothed in native rather to sideload "Droids". Further, BB must do a better job convincing its potential consumers that they can find what they need and will use for Apps rather than simply what Apps may be desired on a whim--a delicate process of marketing I agree.

Ahh, the open source debate! It might be the best alternative.

[Norte: Sorry, early, longer response somehow got zapped....but I paraphrased what I could recall.]

[M65c02]

That's funny, given that the reason the term "CrackBerry" came into existence is because of people who walked around staring at their BB screen all day long... So, you're saying that BB10 is targeted at non-BB users?

Alternatively, maybe the market is for those that stare at their phones all day. But if so, no way is BB going to unseat Apple and Samsung + Android, Motorola + Android (my projection), Sony + Android (my projection) in that consumer arena. And, coming from a different consumer angle, Nokia + W8 that will be after the business crowd linked to W8 desk/laptop and otherwise looking for a full eco system other than IOS.

I've heard from back in March in CB, and also per Thors, that BB's goal isn't to be number 1 (as in past), nor number 2 but firmly as number 3. Okay, I agree with baby steps toward rebuilding. But if BB is indeed after the "stare at the phone all day crowd" (and I agree that many of its original supporters did just that), then it is clear today that such strategy will never clip from the others (named above) with the same strategy enough "critical mass" (per another poster) to cover its current costs, let alone R&D for the future. And, if so, we can all agree that unfortunately the hardware of OS10 phones don't have the camera, out-of-the-box readiness, nor unique styling--all esoteric as they may be--that surely are linked with such crowd as defined in today's standards (vs. 2005 when mentality of "any color so long as black" worked).

I won't even bother to go into the extreme underestimation of the power of MSFT to finally focus on the smart phone market and easily become number 3.*

So, who are the BB people indeed is a proper question (kbz1960) and one that hasn't been answered .... anywhere that I've read. PERHAPS herein just stating the obvious but it merits more discussion.

[*Note: MSFT appears to have made so many errors since 2000 to keep from becoming even more dominant but somewhat similar to Apples huge mistakes of the late 80's and early 90's, don't count them out just yet. We can save that for another thread, if need be.]

[kbz1960]

Alternatively, maybe the market is for those that stare at their phones all day. But if so, no way is BB going to unseat Apple and Samsung + Android, Motorola + Android (my projection), Sony + Android (my projection) in that consumer arena. And, coming from a different consumer angle, Nokia + W8 that will be after the business crowd linked to W8 desk/laptop and otherwise looking for a full eco system other than IOS.

I've heard from back in March in CB, and also per Thors, that BB's goal isn't to be number 1 (as in past), nor number 2 but firmly as number 3. Okay, I agree with baby steps toward rebuilding. But if BB is indeed after the "stare at the phone all day crowd" (and I agree that many of its original supporters did just that), then it is clear today that such strategy will never clip from the others (named above) with the same strategy enough "critical mass" (per another poster) to cover its current costs, let alone R&D for the future. And, if so, we can all agree that unfortunately the hardware of OS10 phones don't have the camera, out-of-the-box readiness, nor unique styling--all esoteric as they may be--that surely are linked with such crowd as defined in today's standards (vs. 2005 when mentality of "any color so long as black" worked).

I won't even bother to go into the extreme underestimation of the power of MSFT to finally focus on the smart phone market and easily become number 3.*

So, who are the BB people indeed is a proper question (kbz1960) and one that hasn't been answered .... anywhere that I've read. PERHAPS herein just stating the obvious but it merits more discussion.

[*Note: MSFT appears to have made so many errors since 2000 to keep from becoming even more dominant but somewhat similar to Apples huge mistakes of the late 80's and early 90's, don't count them out just yet. We can save that for another thread, if need be.]

MS owns the desktop and Apple owns or did mobile. Doesn't Android own mobile now?

[RyanGermann]

That's funny, given that the reason the term "CrackBerry" came into existence is because of people who walked around staring at their BB screen all day long... So, you're saying that BB10 is targeted at non-BB users?

That ship sailed ages ago... the term CrackBerry when it was coined was just about email, really. If that was Crack, iPhone is some kind of hybrid of Crack, crystal meth and high fructose corn syrup compared to the BlackBerry experience of today for the average consumer.

There are too many options for mobile email today... back then the alternative to BlackBerry was ungainly laptops or desktop pcs, then iPhone came along. iPhone is the new Crack, because in addition to email notifications etc. there's now all those apps to be addicted to.

[M65c02]

So, you're saying that BB10 is targeted at non-BB users?

Poster to which this comment refers probably didn't intend literal avoidance of all current BB phone users because .... Obviously, it is difficult for any company to completely remake itself including a totally new consumer following. In other words BB surely must continue with some sort of foundation formed from its current--sometimes very long-time--users. BUT BB today would also appear to have to make its market thrust oriented more toward a new segment of (non-BB) smart phone user. In so doing, BB would hope that it would not scare away too many of its current consumers but clearly it must attract a much needed different slice of the consumer pie.

For the record, however, I don't see what BB did with OS10 that was designed to retain their current/legacy phone loyalists:

1) Provide a Credible Delivery/Release Date that we could calendar for our smooth transition away from legacy BB's. Nope
2) Provide Downward Compatibility of OS10 -- Nope, Curve and Bold aside, ask the Playbook owners. (Future OS10 revs, we can only hope will enhance (i.e., work on) our Zeds and Qeds.
3) Provide some even Nominal Discounts or Incentives to individuals and/or larger scale Current Business Users -- None that I know of.
4) Incorporate prior OS (5-7) User Features. Some but so many left off and lots more relearning than would be expected. OS10 is truly an entirely new\ phenom that a former BB user doesn't have much advantage over a consumer transitioning from another phone. So No again.

So just saying, BB won't turn away a sale to anyone. But, and despite the reasons above, I have to believe that while BB's initial release of OS10 may well have been aimed mostly at a healthy % of legacy BB conversions, this has failed miserably. BB had to know that it could not pull many other users with an OS10 flawed at release. Now, however, 10.2 is competitive with the Droid or IPhone4/5 and, with careful marketing and continued development, OS10.2+ has the potential to draw a greater following. Whether having missed the initial window of opportunity at introduction, there can be any new traction and momentum ... very difficult task indeed !!!

That ship sailed ages ago... the term CrackBerry when it was coined was just about email, really. If that was Crack, iPhone is some kind of [super] hybrid of Crack ... compared to the Blackberry experience of today.

.... IPhone is the new Crack, because in addition to email notifications etc. there's now all those apps to be addicted to.

Agreed!! Perhaps needful to remind, Blackberry simply didn't adapt to the new technology available and hang on to the unit sales it requires to survive. ... BB didn't put the leather in the upholstery, extra instruments on the console, nor make use of a larger engine and better suspension, body and paint that comes standard on other phones. Alternatively, I guess BB didn't further comprehend the introduction of the next designer benefit in a manner in which it once had introduced itself. We all remember people watching people hooked on BB while standing at a bar, sitting at a restaurant table, or simply walking the street while helplessly staring into or thumbing their phones. Whether we had a BB at the time or not, most anyone then associated these symptoms with a BB phone. Nothing new in this paragraph.

So, part of the thrust of the thread is to determine what and how is BB trying to target and whether such strategy has a chance to work in the future. Or, should BB alter its present strategy (whatever that may be) while there is still a (small) chance of turning things around.

YEP, no one can talk very well about Blackberry's marketing intentions because it's hard to tell what they may be ... BB's biggest marketing announcement in 2013 may well turn out to have been their intention to sell themselves as a company rather than an introduction of OS10 !!!

MS owns the desktop and Apple owns or did mobile. Doesn't Android own mobile now?

YES absolutely correct, I'd say by most measures Android is the king of mobile. They're likely to stay on top as long as they can keep Samsung, HTC, Motorola and Sony on the hardware and continue software innovation from their Google R&D backbone. [Therefore, when I talk about competition I should probably start listing Android/Samsung before Apple...I usually refer to Droids or Samdroids generically to refer to all Droid powered devices.]

If MSFT can integrate seamlessly with its desktops and, in turn, somehow integrate with cable/satelite TV, then it could move back up the ladder quickly--probably not to 1 or 2 for smart phones but maybe a very solid 3?!? Of course, Apple has similar plans and I'm sure that Google must be thinking toward this complete eco-environment too. [Just a bit more nudge in battery technology and we're there!!!]

[dad2bandm]

At this point, anyone who will plunk down cash?

I don't think Blackberry even knows given some of their horrible marketing. I always thought it was weird to market a once great business tool as the phone of choice for some club dj or whatever that stupid commercial was trying to get out.









Posted via CB10

[Robin Lim]

I think it is pretty obvious, the Q10 and Q5 are targeted at the traditional BlackBerry user who still uses a QWERTY messenger. The Z10, well it looks like it was targeted as an alternative to the iPhone.

Me I am an former Android user who was thinking, these are all getting to big. I type on portrait mode so the iPhone 5 felt a bit narrow (came from a 4.3 inch HTC Desire HD) . I had about 40 apps installed in my old phone so BlackBerry World has enough apps for me. I don't think the BlackBerry Z10, or even the Z30 will appeal to my Android toting friends.

Overall I am happy with my purchase. My only software gripes (after the MR release) is I cannot archive Gmail emails, absence of Gmail search and the absence of a Google+ app. BlackBerry 10 has its own set if advantages over Android so it is easy enough to forget about these limitations.

Support wise, my display has come loose on the lower left corner and it will take a month to get the part. In fairness, in my part of the world, a month to get a replacement is par for the course.

Posted from my Zed 10

[M65c02]

At this point, anyone who will plunk down cash?

I don't think Blackberry even knows given some of their horrible marketing. I always thought it was weird to market a once great business tool as the phone of choice for some club dj or whatever that stupid commercial was trying to get out.

Yes, an attempt to remake the image of a once proud giant has become painful to watch. The poster below, however, also is accurate in his assessment.

I think it is pretty obvious, the Q10 and Q5 are targeted at the traditional BlackBerry user who still uses a QWERTY messenger. The Z10, well it looks like it was targeted as an alternative to the iPhone.

Me I am an former Android user who was thinking, these are all getting to big. I type on portrait mode so the iPhone 5 felt a bit narrow (came from a 4.3 inch HTC Desire HD) . I had about 40 apps installed in my old phone so BlackBerry World has enough apps for me. I don't think the BlackBerry Z10, or even the Z30 will appeal to my Android toting friends.

Overall I am happy with my purchase. My only software gripes (after the MR release) is I cannot archive Gmail emails, absence of Gmail search and the absence of a Google+ app. BlackBerry 10 has its own set if advantages over Android so it is easy enough to forget about these limitations.

Support wise, my display has come loose on the lower left corner . . .

You state the obvious for the Q models but, somehow, this had not been clearly posted above. Thanks!!!

In light of OS10 and the initial intro of the keyboardless Z, the Q's made little sense but for making happy the current legacy BB users. Perhaps BB should have brought the Q to market first, or concurrent with the Z. So many BB consumers had waited so long for OS10 (myself included), they snapped up the Z even having preferred their traditional BB keyboards if available. Or, perhaps BB might have wanted to encourage as many current users, along with the new ones it hopes to attract, to join the no keyboard IPhone type future for BB. Who's to say what timing of release is (would have been) best--except to say that the entire OS10 should have been developed and released a year, or more, earlier.

There still remained, of course, a number of users that hung out 3 months until summer to snag a Q. With I suspect so few Qs sold to date, however, I can't see the model and hardware support being continued with much gusto. Yet, that may not matter as OS10 updates may have too few differences between the Zed and Qed to matter....and obviously it is the software update that is most critical (if a hardware issue, BB will simply exchange for a reconditioned Q). Therefore, two models made sense and the marketing plan for the "stop gap Qs" (my term) is much easier to discern.

As for Apps, I also have few demands but those few were not available upon launch ... Even as I've hung in there, it was frustrating and unquestionably scared away many potential buyers. (In addition, there were many, many, many issues with OS10 that were brushed away as growing pains but that also didn't sit well with consumers other than the BB faithful. OS10 with 10.2 leaks has come a long way since the reboots, battery kills, and lack of smooth signal transitions of 10.0.)

But, even today, with other functions of OS10 not being ultra-revolutionary--at least not enough to separate it from Apple/Droid, it's a steep hill to climb to regenerate the great demand that we'd hoped with OS10 intro (rare for any phone to be flat at intro then become a star). Glad you traded a Droid for a Z but sorry about the G-Mail/Google issues. Personally, I still have a nightmare where my contacts are concerned .... but I'll leave that discussion for another round.

As an aside: Your display came loose on your Z!? Just curious, do you remember dropping it?? Does it work with a loose display, or is/was it dead?? I simply haven't heard of this issue/problem but want to be aware??

[Robin Lim]

You are probably right about the Q10. That should have been released much earlier.

The display coming loose. Never dropped it. If you click the button of the display on the lower left corner between the edge and up to the word BlackBerry there is an audible click. It is like display is life a bit above whatever is behind it. Phone works fine though.

There is always a lemon in every bunch. Nothing I would be too concerned about.

Posted from my Zed 10

[miguel89to]

I still don't understand why BlackBerry marketing cannot find a good pitch.

I mean BlackBerry is for people that communicate. Everyone knows that. Please tell me how many freaking people are always on social sites! Capitalize on that and add a lil pizzazz and you can at least grab 5% from ios and 5% from android. Jesus...

People that are always texting and people that have **** to do are the people that BlackBerry is and should try to market to.



Posted via CB10

[Robin Lim]

...BlackBerry's Social Apps are not as good as their Android and iOS counterparts. The official apps have gotten much better with the last set of updates though.

Posted from my Zed 10

[M65c02]

Thanks for heads up on display.... I'll keep an eye on mine.

You are probably right about the Q10. That should have been released much earlier.

The display coming loose. Never dropped it. If you click the button of the display on the lower left corner between the edge and up to the word BlackBerry there is an audible click. It is like display is life a bit above whatever is behind it. Phone works fine though.

There is always a lemon in every bunch. Nothing I would be too concerned about.

Posted from my Zed 10

[M65c02]

I still don't understand why BlackBerry marketing cannot find a good pitch.

I mean BlackBerry is for people that communicate. Everyone knows that. Please tell me how many freaking people are always on social sites! Capitalize on that and add a lil pizzazz and you can at least grab 5% from ios and 5% from android. Jesus...

People that are always texting and people that have **** to do are the people that BlackBerry is and should try to market to.

Posted via CB10

Many agree with your assessment/frustration of "Why can't BB find a pitch."

And, most have to agree that BB's growth--indeed survival at this point--must come from trimming market share from Droid and Apple phones. But that pitch probably has to capture the imagination of these Droid/Apple users in a slightly different, if not boldly new, fashion. Unless Blackberry introduced a phone that had a certain 2 day battery using a processor 2x faster with 2GB of memory, not enough people are going to flock to it simply as another good communication device. In fact, as things stand today, only enough people to barely grease the hinges on the Waterloo doors have grasped OS10 (and the legacy devices keep the lights on for now). Of course, as discussed, neither is BB isn't going to take the App crowd, per se.

This is the marketing dilemma that BB appears to be facing and, to tie in your earlier comment, BB needs a real pitch (and more advertising in general) to go with its OS10 campaign. .... On the other hand, any/all major decisions may be shut down until a change in ownership. Still, assuming new ownership wants to continue OS10, they will be faced with most of the same questions/problems.

[miguel89to]

Many agree with your assessment/frustration of "Why can't BB find a pitch."

And, most have to agree that BB's growth--indeed survival at this point--must come from trimming market share from Droid and Apple phones. But that pitch probably has to capture the imagination of these Droid/Apple users in a slightly different, if not boldly new, fashion. Unless Blackberry introduced a phone that had a certain 2 day battery using a processor 2x faster with 2GB of memory, not enough people are going to flock to it simply as another good communication device. In fact, as things stand today, only enough people to barely grease the hinges on the Waterloo doors have grasped OS10 (and the legacy devices keep the lights on for now). Of course, as discussed, neither is BB isn't going to take the App crowd, per se.

This is the marketing dilemma that BB appears to be facing and, to tie in your earlier comment, BB needs a real pitch (and more advertising in general) to go with its OS10 campaign. .... On the other hand, any/all major decisions may be shut down until a change in ownership. Still, assuming new ownership wants to continue OS10, they will be faced with most of the same questions/problems.

True.. but the HUB is something a lot of people consider a great idea for people on a lot of social sites as it keeps evrything in one place.

I'm 24 and in Houston, TX and all 100+ people I have shown the HUB to have said it was cool. All day their on fb, twitter, Tumblr, Instagram, vine, snapchat. If they can add the missing apps and show the HUB in a cool way then bam!!

Posted via CB10

[miguel89to]

Maybe also 4chan would be great and reddit. Bit be implemented in the HUB somehow

Posted via CB10

[xBURK]

"Keep Moving" had so much potential. It's enough to make an advertising company salivate. I was somewhat impressed with the first commercials that came out, but mysteriously, there was absolutely no follow up? Great question OP. If we have to ask ourselves who BlackBerry is trying to round up, then sadly, it will and has shown in their unimpressive sales. I hope the best for BlackBerry, but they're giving every reason for new potential customers to "Keep Moving On".

Posted via CB10

[Robin Lim]

The best traits of BlackBerry 10 are the Hub, browser, interface and security.

Posted from my Zed 10

[Fnen90]

None?......
.

[M65c02]

"Keep Moving" had so much potential. It's enough to make an advertising company salivate. ... I hope the best for BlackBerry, but they're giving every reason for new potential customers to "Keep Moving On".

Posted via CB10

Yes, a funny play on words linked to BB's original marketing phrase that has proven accurate these past few months.

The best traits of BlackBerry 10 are the Hub, browser, interface and security.

Posted from my Zed 10

That about sums it up. I think that they must emphasize the Hub and, in a different fashion than Apple, BB's past and long-term future commitment to security. Not sure how much security really means to people, but it should be promoted as important and something that differentiates itself from IOS and Droids.