07-14-15 02:12 PM
64 123
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  1. BCITMike's Avatar
    NSA has records of everyone, DHS has terrorist lists, dissenter lists, why would they need to shut down an entire system when they can just shut down those they feel pose a threat? They wouldn't.

    Go read something.

    BBClassic10 
    Wuht?

    Of course they would. "Hey, my phone isn't working, can I borrow yours?". Pretty easy defeat.

    Shutting down a network is fast, simple, and a reliable way to shut down a network. Doing it individually is stupid.

    You need to take some dictator lessons.

    Posted via CB10
    rthonpm likes this.
    07-13-15 04:27 PM
  2. BCITMike's Avatar
    Many things offer auto update and still be forced to install updates even when user intentionally disabled it.

    Microsoft Windows updates
    Satellite and cable boxes
    Logmein products
    Etc

    Basically, stuff with security implications.

    You are actually being given the choice to auto upgrade optional OS, not mandatory OS.

    So the complaint is that you can be forced to take a mandatory firmware.

    Posted via CB10
    07-13-15 04:39 PM
  3. rthonpm's Avatar
    This thread turned into a conspiracy theory site very quickly. I tried to demonstrate with my early posts in this thread that the nefarious intent some posters seemed to read into something like this were quite ridiculous since there would be much more effective ways for a truly repressive regime to quell dissent, but the nagging and martyrdom of the internet crowd continues.

    The ability to see some kind of vast evils in an update from a state trying to dry up the market for stolen goods that people have lost their lives for is quite amazing. Like the saying goes though: when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

    To some of you: go talk to a Holocaust survivor, or someone who lost their family by deportation to Siberia in the Stalin era forced relocations. Talk to the people tortured by the Stazi or had their loved ones killed in Cambodia or mutilated in Afghanistan and then think about the fact that as terrible as what the NSA and intelligence agencies are doing is that you live in a country where you can hold the people in power accountable.


    Posted via CB10
    07-13-15 05:03 PM
  4. thurask's Avatar
    This thread turned into a conspiracy theory site very quickly.
    Well, welcome to CrackBerry.

    Usually the conspiracy theories are that John Chen walks on water and can revive the dead, though.

    Anyway, if you feel that Jesus died in vain if we live in a society where updates can be mandatory, write to:

    Governor Jerry Brown
    c/o State Capitol, Suite 1173
    Sacramento, CA 95814

    Posted via CB10
    Pdinos3 and rthonpm like this.
    07-13-15 07:56 PM
  5. syplex's Avatar
    Many things offer auto update and still be forced to install updates even when user intentionally disabled it.

    Microsoft Windows updates
    Satellite and cable boxes
    Logmein products
    Etc

    Basically, stuff with security implications.

    You are actually being given the choice to auto upgrade optional OS, not mandatory OS.

    So the complaint is that you can be forced to take a mandatory firmware.
    Notwithstanding the fact that you can completely disable updates in Microsoft Windows, the point is that you are forced against an OS setting to update the OS version, not to update the firmware version. Unfortunately in the current BlackBerry OS, the firmware and OS updates appear to be one and the same. They don't actually have to be the same as described earlier in this thread.
    07-13-15 10:16 PM
  6. syplex's Avatar
    Summary of concerns discovered in this thread:

    1. OS Update is mandatory, and ignores OS setting (automatically download and install software updates)
      • Are other settings able to be ignored or modified by carrier or manufacturer demands?
    2. Updating the entire OS for network or regulatory changes is too risky to the end user
      • Existing features relied upon may be missing or broken in new OS version
      • Update can fail and render phone inoperable
      • Different apps and functionality (ie, calendar) forces user to change how they interact with the phone
    3. Update automatically reboots phone without user control
      • Phone is unusable for a period of time, causing anything from an inconvenience, to missed business calls, missed alarms or meetings, to inability to call for help in an accident or life threating situation
      • Update can fail and render phone inoperable (or trash contacts, etc)
    4. New OS contains new anti-theft killswitch code
      • May causes issues for IT in BES deployment as admin isn't in control of BB Protect
      • Paranoid users might want to avoid this until they see how it is used


    The dismissal arguments:

    "But they had to do it because of the CA killswitch law"
    • Nope. The law only applies to new sales of phones.


    "But they have to update the OS to give out new network and security updates"
    • Maybe. Other phones (such as iPhone) have a carrier software update that is separate from the OS.


    "But there are worse things in the world, like the Nazis!"
    • You win. I guess we're done having any issues about anything, because Nazi's will always be worse.
    playfoot and Lawmen23 like this.
    07-13-15 10:42 PM
  7. Pdinos3's Avatar
    Solution. If you had loaded the latest leak,which is official, you would have avoided all this grief and wouldn't have had to wear your tinfoil hat.

    Via CB10 Runnin PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2339
    07-13-15 10:49 PM
  8. BCITMike's Avatar
    Notwithstanding the fact that you can completely disable updates in Microsoft Windows, the point is that you are forced against an OS setting to update the OS version, not to update the firmware version. Unfortunately in the current BlackBerry OS, the firmware and OS updates appear to be one and the same. They don't actually have to be the same as described earlier in this thread.
    That is not true, at all. You can disable automatic updates, but Microsoft can still push an update to your OS. This is only the one I found in 0.35 seconds of Google searching. I can somewhat recall 2-3 times in the past 15 years Microsoft pushed something without user knowledge or consent through disabled automatic updates. I'm sure there were more we never knew about.

    Microsoft quietly pushes 17 new trusted root certificates to all Windows systems | InfoWorld

    The only way to ensure this is by not connecting to Microsoft servers.

    Edit: Another, older Microsoft forced update. http://windowssecrets.com/top-story/...users-consent/

    I think there is a joke here to be made about you not knowing about them pushing updates without you knowing, but I can't quite make it...
    Last edited by BCITMike; 07-13-15 at 11:57 PM.
    07-13-15 11:43 PM
  9. BCITMike's Avatar
    Summary of concerns discovered in this thread:

    1. OS Update is mandatory, and ignores OS setting (automatically download and install software updates)
      • Are other settings able to be ignored or modified by carrier or manufacturer demands?
    2. Updating the entire OS for network or regulatory changes is too risky to the end user
      • Existing features relied upon may be missing or broken in new OS version
      • Update can fail and render phone inoperable
      • Different apps and functionality (ie, calendar) forces user to change how they interact with the phone
    3. Update automatically reboots phone without user control
      • Phone is unusable for a period of time, causing anything from an inconvenience, to missed business calls, missed alarms or meetings, to inability to call for help in an accident or life threating situation
      • Update can fail and render phone inoperable (or trash contacts, etc)
    4. New OS contains new anti-theft killswitch code
      • May causes issues for IT in BES deployment as admin isn't in control of BB Protect
      • Paranoid users might want to avoid this until they see how it is used


    The dismissal arguments:

    "But they had to do it because of the CA killswitch law"
    • Nope. The law only applies to new sales of phones.


    "But they have to update the OS to give out new network and security updates"
    • Maybe. Other phones (such as iPhone) have a carrier software update that is separate from the OS.


    "But there are worse things in the world, like the Nazis!"
    • You win. I guess we're done having any issues about anything, because Nazi's will always be worse.
    I couldn't find anyone previously mentioning Nazi's in this thread, so I feel as though you've lowered the conversation.

    Anytime you make an argument to be more like iPhone, should be met with resistance unless it is a really good idea. Apple is not the leader in security good ideas and are pretty bone headed the first few go arounds until they are shamed into doing something better. Other companies just don't update their phones, so that's not a good argument, either. A forced OS update is clearly a security thing. As I mentioned earlier, its done in MANY products where service and security are critical to its function.

    I think if the OS went from 10.x to 11.x, I think you might have more of an argument of an afflicted upon OS that was drastically different than prior. But this is a 10.x.x to 10.x.x update.
    07-13-15 11:54 PM
  10. John Vieira's Avatar
    Do you guys realize that according to EULA you don't actually own your device and are basically renting it?

    Blackberry has full control of your device and can do whatever they want to it. Anything.

    Similarly, Carriers control the devices on their network. Maybe you could have refused the update, but then they would refuse to give you service.

    Sucks, but you have to understand corporations are out to cover their butts first, and then give a damn about the users.

    Work Wide and Prosper
    07-14-15 01:41 AM
  11. syplex's Avatar
    That is not true, at all. You can disable automatic updates, but Microsoft can still push an update to your OS. This is only the one I found in 0.35 seconds of Google searching. I can somewhat recall 2-3 times in the past 15 years Microsoft pushed something without user knowledge or consent through disabled automatic updates. I'm sure there were more we never knew about.

    Microsoft quietly pushes 17 new trusted root certificates to all Windows systems | InfoWorld

    The only way to ensure this is by not connecting to Microsoft servers.

    Edit: Another, older Microsoft forced update. Microsoft updates Windows without users? consent
    In both of these cases the updates were downloaded via the Windows Update service, which can be disabled. It didn't prompt for the updates, and installed them even if the setting was set to prompt or not install (which sucks), but you can still disable updates completely. If you disable the Windows Update service from running via the Services Administrative Tool, nothing will be updated because the OS won't let the service run.
    07-14-15 01:29 PM
  12. syplex's Avatar
    Anytime you make an argument to be more like iPhone, should be met with resistance unless it is a really good idea. Apple is not the leader in security good ideas and are pretty bone headed the first few go arounds until they are shamed into doing something better.
    The argument is not to be more like an iPhone, the argument is to not require updating the entire operating system for small carrier changes such as radio settings, network access, settings, bundled apps, FCC regulation compliance, etc. I provided iPhone as an example of this in action because people are arguing that you have to update the whole OS. I'm sure there are other examples out there as well possibly from companies that don't inspire as much hatred.
    07-14-15 01:41 PM
  13. BCITMike's Avatar
    In both of these cases the updates were downloaded via the Windows Update service, which can be disabled. It didn't prompt for the updates, and installed them even if the setting was set to prompt or not install (which sucks), but you can still disable updates completely. If you disable the Windows Update service from running via the Services Administrative Tool, nothing will be updated because the OS won't let the service run.
    Microsoft doesn't want you doing this. That isn't supported at all. You are intentionally doing something they do not want you to do and not a supported action and you would need Administrator rights. This is even more clear in Windows 10 and the forced updates for the Home SKU. Even the Pro SKU cannot delay updates indefinitely. I think your argument using Windows gets weaker since they are moving towards more forced upgrades, and hella more often!

    That doesn't change the fact that the option to disable updates is flagrantly ignored and the situation is not different like you think. The fact that the OS can be used in a completely isolated and standalone environment and not using Microsoft/BlackBerry's services and security make the options and comparison completely apples and oranges. When you disable firewall and updates and what not, that's on you to protect it elsewhere (ie, hardware firewall). You better hope its isolated from the rest of your network. When you are not provided control over a firewall and BlackBerry is the security provider, they call the shots.

    If you were to never sign up/in to BlackBerry ID on a brand new phone, would the phone still force upgrade? I think during initial boot it checks for new OS, but not sure if it forces an update right then and there.
    07-14-15 01:59 PM
  14. BCITMike's Avatar
    The argument is not to be more like an iPhone, the argument is to not require updating the entire operating system for small carrier changes such as radio settings, network access, settings, bundled apps, FCC regulation compliance, etc. I provided iPhone as an example of this in action because people are arguing that you have to update the whole OS. I'm sure there are other examples out there as well possibly from companies that don't inspire as much hatred.
    What are you talking about? They can provide a small update if needed, if it makes sense. Many of us do see small updates (the deltas) after a leak version goes official. But why make many individual releases rather than releasing a tested bundle? I don't know what you do for a living, but it sure isn't in technology, software or hardware testing related. There is development, QA and support aspects that all need to be on same level. Do that as one big release, not 100 little ones. You have a very basic/naive viewpoint. This stuff is complex!

    If I'm making a new firmware that has 5 new features and 3 bug fixes, I am NOT going to make 8 updates. I am making 1 update, testing the hell out of it, and releasing that. Further, the changes for these features and bug fixes may require fixes in other components. And those components needs updates from other components worked on by different developers, etc.

    I can't even update a few programs on my linux servers without having to pull in updates for other components that they depend on. Otherwise, things break (I'm looking at you, python). Even with dependency awareness and all that, updates regularly break as well because components being used at different versions from each other, tested on different versions, made by different developers are going to be buggy.
    rthonpm and playfoot like this.
    07-14-15 02:12 PM
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