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- AT&T will force updates as well. They have pushed several updates to my wife's S3 without giving us the opportunity to run a backup.
My position is I'm good as long as I stay ahead of them which usually isn't too hard. Then I choose the time of my upgrades and always run a backup first.
Posted via CB1007-09-15 10:12 PMLike 0 - You raise a very good point.
Even ignoring any EUA that states a carrier has the right to unilaterally make changes, and such significant sweeping changes so that the phone is significantly modified, this means the capability exists to access the phone at any time.
This is a serious blow to BB's vaunted security. If the technology, the key, the encryption or by whatever means such an override is possible is known to or falls into the hands of a nefarious entity . . . The mind boggles.
As with my previous question above, I would hope to have an answer a simple user like me might be able to understand.
This isn't a Windows computer where you can choose to stay on XP indefinitely. If an update is released such as 10.3.2 that has code that becomes mandatory in one way or another, then it will be forcefully pushed on to every device that isn't turned off or otherwise disconnected from either a carrier signal or to the Web via WiFi.
Posted via CB1007-10-15 01:47 PMLike 0 -
This isn't a Windows computer where you can choose to stay on XP indefinitely. If an update is released such as 10.3.2 that has code that becomes mandatory in one way or another, then it will be forcefully pushed on to every device that isn't turned off or otherwise disconnected from either a carrier signal or to the Web via WiFi.peter0328 likes this.07-10-15 04:23 PMLike 1 -
Arguing with people who have given you their best advice on the issue won't change anything.
Z10STL100-3/10.3.2.798 SR 10.3.2.516bungaboy likes this.07-10-15 04:56 PMLike 1 - Have you read your agreement with your carrier yet? It will either say that they can do that, in which case there you are. Or it will say that they can't, in which case you should be expending your efforts making that case to them. Or possibly a court.
Arguing with people who have given you their best advice on the issue won't change anything.
Originally Posted by Verizon Wireless Customer AgreementWe may change your wireless device's software, applications or programming remotely, without notice. This could affect your stored data, or how you've programmed or use your wireless device.07-10-15 06:05 PMLike 0 - ITT: muh freedomz
A very liberal reading of this agreement has serious security implications, so a security conscious phone company like BlackBerry isn't going to simply allow wanton access to the phone by the provider because they happen to have written it into their EUA. Instead they will restrict access and keep their phones secure. However they did not do this in the case of honoring phone settings so it makes you wonder how much access they give the network provider.bungaboy likes this.07-10-15 06:54 PMLike 1 - Oooo Bla1ze got sassy & went all Peevish. I wonder if he knows how hot he is when he gets sassy and goes all Peevish.07-10-15 07:22 PMLike 2
- To Syplex, yes. This is to what I was referring. While it would be impossible to know, I would like to understand the agreement between BB and the carriers. Does it mean the carriers can at their sole discretion, at anytime make changes to the OS, the end users data, etc.?
If yes, it would be a fairly large hole in the BB's theory of security.....syplex likes this.07-10-15 08:04 PMLike 1 - Freedom is popular. There may be some agreement as you describe, however it can be limited to what I described, low level network access firmware or baseband code. This is how Apple does it (including on Verizon) with their Carrier Settings Updates. From what I understand they have partitioned their software into a portion that contains carrier updates and fixes for network access etc, and a portion for OS software which is controlled by Apple where the user has control over whether or not to install. So BB could do it differently but appears to have chosen to do it this way. Maybe they didn't build a second layer into the system to account for carrier updates. This makes me wonder how Verizon and other carriers get code changes like radio and apps into the OS and crypto signed so the device will allow it to run? I would think that BlackBerry guards the signing keys heavily, which might mean carriers have to send the final package to BB before it gets signed.07-10-15 08:15 PMLike 0
- The only reason why I knew I was getting this update was because I got a low battery message preventing the install. Otherwise ot would've updated fully on to own.
Posted via CB1007-10-15 08:29 PMLike 0 - This makes me wonder how Verizon and other carriers get code changes like radio and apps into the OS and crypto signed so the device will allow it to run? I would think that BlackBerry guards the signing keys heavily, which might mean carriers have to send the final package to BB before it gets signed.
As for carrier apps, those are either packed within a special OS image (Verizon) or downloaded OTA (everyone else). Sending a carrier update request via Sachesi/some other app returns the list of bars available for that device model on that carrier, which can include carrier software (My Verizon/etc). The same list of apps is returned when the phone makes the update request, since it's checking the same API.07-10-15 08:34 PMLike 0 - I don't know if you heard of this guy Snowden, but with his help the Guardian has pretty much told the entire world (well those that actually listen) that this corporate company called the NSA along with 4 other corporate companies all have backdoor access to every phone, computer (including 90% of linux), smart meter, let's just say every piece of electronic equipment that connects to the Internet. And they use that back door to obtain every piece of information that passes through it, and they save all of that information into giant data centers.
What I'm trying to say is... duh they are spying on everyone wake up already.
BBClassic10bungaboy likes this.07-10-15 08:40 PMLike 1 - The point is none of this would be possible if BlackBerry hadn't given a backdoor to the provider(s) to violate settings on the device. If the device is a secure device, BlackBerry shouldn't give access and it wouldn't matter what the EUA was, because it wouldn't be possible to alter user's data. If a cellular provider had an end user agreement that said they could read your email and remote files at any time without notice or alter their contents, BlackBerry wouldn't simply allow it as it completely violates their business proposition and security. The EUA is between the user and the provider. If the provider cannot execute actions the user permitted in the EUA because of phone model or software or security, that's their problem. BB doesn't have to make their phone comply with the user agreement. But for fun I looked it up.
A very liberal reading of this agreement has serious security implications, so a security conscious phone company like BlackBerry isn't going to simply allow wanton access to the phone by the provider because they happen to have written it into their EUA. Instead they will restrict access and keep their phones secure. However they did not do this in the case of honoring phone settings so it makes you wonder how much access they give the network provider.
The way cell phones work, the phone is an extension of the carrier's network. A small number of misbehaving phones can have a significant impact on the operation of the network. That is why carriers won't allow a device on their networks in significant numbers until they have been fully tested. And why they control updates.
Z10STL100-3/10.3.2.798 SR 10.3.2.516bungaboy likes this.07-10-15 09:03 PMLike 1 - Problem with this whole discussion is if you have an STA100-3 which has never had a Verizon SIM inserted, it will still be forced this mandatory update even on WiFi. Verizon takes ownership for this forced update though.
That is a problem.
Posted via CB10Richard Buckley likes this.07-10-15 09:25 PMLike 1 - It would be, if the Verizon SIM was the only way for Verizon to find it on any network.
Since it's a Verizon phone, the phone's IMEI is already on Verizon's whitelist (how CDMA operates; no whitelist, no regular service). Sub-LTE speeds don't require a SIM card, since it can connect to the Verizon CDMA network as long as the device is properly set up with Verizon.
Even then, given the experiences of people who end up with Verizon phones in India (of all places), they are receiving this mandatory update far from Verizon's network, so I assume Verizon's database of its own devices has something to do with it.
Posted via CB10bungaboy likes this.07-10-15 11:15 PMLike 1 -
The other side of this coin is at least with a BlackBerry you don't have a hardware kill switch that the carrier can flip on you. As far as I am aware that is irreversible. So the mandatory upgrade isn't reversible either, but the phone still works. If you buy a second hand phone, then the seller reports it lost or stolen to get a replacement under insurance (or maybe it was lost or stolen in fact). Once the carrier throws the kill switch it is a brick.
I understand why people are upset with the way Verizon handled this, and I think they could be done better. Maybe at this point some Verizon employees are starting to think that they could have done it better. But the only recourse is to complain to them and/or leave for another carrier.
But if you are squeamish about the carriers' ability to update your software your only recourse is to do without a cellphone.
Z10STL100-3/10.3.2.798 SR 10.3.2.516bungaboy likes this.07-11-15 06:31 AMLike 1 - It would be, if the Verizon SIM was the only way for Verizon to find it on any network.
Since it's a Verizon phone, the phone's IMEI is already on Verizon's whitelist (how CDMA operates; no whitelist, no regular service). Sub-LTE speeds don't require a SIM card, since it can connect to the Verizon CDMA network as long as the device is properly set up with Verizon.
Even then, given the experiences of people who end up with Verizon phones in India (of all places), they are receiving this mandatory update far from Verizon's network, so I assume Verizon's database of its own devices has something to do with it.
Posted via CB10
Since you aren't a Verizon customer (in theory) you haven't agreed to their device software update terms.
Posted via CB1007-11-15 07:58 AMLike 0 - I understand why people are upset with the way Verizon handled this, and I think they could be done better. Maybe at this point some Verizon employees are starting to think that they could have done it better. But the only recourse is to complain to them and/or leave for another carrier.
If BlackBerry does indeed control the software updates, I wonder what kind of control they have over the process? Carriers have put un-deletable apps and icons in the past on the phone... what else can they do and what can BlackBerry say no to? Could BlackBerry simply said no, we aren't going to force an update? What if a Carrier wanted to ensure that no one on their network used a certain app or went to certain webpages, would BlackBerry simply comply and add in blacklists?07-13-15 11:38 AMLike 0 - Or apparently get an iPhone because somehow Apple has managed to separate OS updates from Carrier updates. And if BlackBerry worked in that way then they wouldn't have to violate device settings to give carrier updates. OS updates should be driven and controlled by the device owner and network specific updates (such as radios, network access, etc) could then be controlled by the carrier.
Now, really, what is BlackBerry supposed to do? Tell Verizon that they weren't going to ensure all Verizon BlackBerry devices were complaint with regulations. That would be a perfect excuse for Verizon to just turn off service to all BlackBerry devices.07-13-15 01:24 PMLike 0 -
From Apple's site:
Originally Posted by AppleCarrier settings updates are small files that can include updates from Apple and your carrier to carrier-related settings, such as network, calling, cellular data, messaging, personal hotspot, and voicemail settings. You may receive notifications from time to time to install new carrier-settings updates.07-13-15 02:06 PMLike 0 - Apple has Carrier Updates and iOS Updates. Two separate animals. BlackBerry seems to have just a single animal, OS+Carrier software update. I am talking about Carrier Updates, which are the ones that are sometimes mandatory. And I would imagine they might both come from Apple servers, that's not really the point.
From Apple's site:
On an Apple phone you can stay on the old iOS version and simply ignore OS updates. However, mandatory carrier updates cannot be ignored. This way the carrier can comply with what they need to and avoid attacks or bugs with the phone's radio or algorithms, but the user can keep their settings, apps, and features they like and upgrade if and when they feel like it. I would imagine Apple is not the only phone that works this way.
Z10STL100-3/10.3.2.798 SR 10.3.2.51607-13-15 03:42 PMLike 0 -
In addition, I don't believe anything in the California killswitch law mandates that the software be forced to existing users:
Originally Posted by California SB-962any smartphone that is manufactured on or after July 1, 2015, and sold in California after that date, shall include a technological solution at the time of sale, to be provided by the manufacturer or operating system provider
Originally Posted by California SB-962�Sold in California� does not include a smartphone that is resold in the state07-13-15 04:21 PMLike 0
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