02-12-18 07:31 AM
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  1. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I disagree. I can't speak for forum users, but anyone I know in real life who uses a BlackBerry does so because of the superior written communication platform, and battery life. And yes, many, or perhaps most of these people also have ios and/or android phones and still choose to use a blackberry for written communication.
    Seriously, the glass slab looks the same on my DTEKs and my Alcatel. I appreciate the BBAndroid difference, however it's not really that big a deal. VKB is a VKB.....
    12-20-17 12:58 PM
  2. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    I disagree. I can't speak for forum users, but anyone I know in real life who uses a BlackBerry does so because of the superior written communication platform, and battery life. And yes, many, or perhaps most of these people also have ios and/or android phones and still choose to use a blackberry for written communication.
    That's my experience too. I think Troy is associating a focus on written communications with text entry, which is only one task among several involved in written communication. The BB10 Hub, Peek and Flow, flick to type, integrated file manager, ease of use for editing features, etc. are all focused on the process of producing text communications that are indistinguishable from those carefully composed on a PC.

    Of course, many people write extensively on other platforms, but that's really not the point.

    Also, Troy is stating (correctly, I think) that many people are simply buying BlackBerry phones out of habit or "brand loyalty." No doubt that is true, as it's also true for all phone brands. Most people simply don't care enough about their phone use to perform an exhaustive and rational needs analysis before each purchase! They follow the path of least resistance.

    But my main point, that only a small fraction of the total mobile market were ever able to really value and profit from BB10's core strengths relative to iOS and Android, which has met the needs of the vast majority of users, is strengthened if one acknowledges that most people don't even value their mobile work enough to carefully consider the options!

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    12-20-17 01:00 PM
  3. JSmith422's Avatar
    How many of those are PKB users, and how many are using BB all-touch models? I'm not sure you can point to any significant advantage to "high volume written communication" with an all-touch BB vs. an Android or iOS phone. I've acknowledged that the PKB is definitely a differentiator for that purpose, and I can see why someone who needs to type a ton of messages/emails/reports while mobile would choose one. I just don't see how that applies to all-touch BBs.

    Battery life on the Motion (and the PKB KeyOne) is another advantage, but on its own has little to do with "high volume written communications." Similarly, I can understand people who choose BB for security reasons.
    Most are all-touch, occasionally a a pkb here or there. In some circumstances, these users may not have Android as an option if it isn't supported within the organization. Many midsized companies we work with won't support them just because it's too fragmented and they require ios or blackberry devices. That said, I also own an iPhone and there is a night and day difference between writing extensively on my z30 vs my iPhone. I don't mind writing at length on the z30, but I find writing on the iPhone to be a tedious and laborious task.
    12-20-17 01:02 PM
  4. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    I'm happy to continue this discussion, but please stop conflating my points. I am very clearly NOT stating that "full" literacy as it is measured in most studies means that someone needs to write constantly or that they should have a BlackBerry. I make absolutely NO ASSUMPTIONS about people who don't want a BB10 phone. Anyone who thinks that the phone someone buys has anything to do with intelligence doesn't understand either the mobile phone market or intelligence.
    Then why bring up literacy at all? What, in your mind, WAS the connection between literacy and people choosing BB phones?

    Also, you're the one associating full literacy with intelligence, not me. I said no such thing and know of no evidence that the two are in any way the same thing. It may be that most fully literate people are at least of average intelligence, but that's a conjecture I don't make.
    Perhaps it's true that I made that association, but I don't think I'm the only one who saw an implication there. Again, why bring up literacy if it's irrelevant to the conversation? Obviously users of smartphones generally need to be able to read (pretty hard to use them if you can't), so the differentiator would be "full literacy" vs. the "partially literate" who, per your example, are targeted by advertisers at their level and who you infer (in my opinion) are going to choose a multimedia-prioritized phone over a text-prioritized phone because they don't read well.

    That may not be what you intended to say, but it's how it came across to me, at least.
    12-20-17 01:03 PM
  5. JSmith422's Avatar
    Seriously, the glass slab looks the same on my DTEKs and my Alcatel. I appreciate the BBAndroid difference, however it's not really that big a deal. VKB is a VKB.....
    The small differences begin to add up when analyzed in great volume.
    12-20-17 01:06 PM
  6. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    What about for privacy reasons?
    Sure. I could easily accept that argument as well, though I think we'd both agree that it's far from automatic that just buying a BB phone gives you privacy. You still need to configure many things and you need to know what you're doing. But, yes, I think you can achieve a higher level of privacy with a BB10 phone, and maybe slightly higher with a BB Android, than with stock Android or iOS. I have no problem accepting that as a valid reason.
    12-20-17 01:07 PM
  7. JSmith422's Avatar
    Fake post fake post fake post........ LOL
    Haha, seriously though.....I didn't write half of post #184 .
    12-20-17 01:07 PM
  8. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Seriously, the glass slab looks the same on my DTEKs and my Alcatel. I appreciate the BBAndroid difference, however it's not really that big a deal. VKB is a VKB.....
    But the BB10 writing experience is very different from the Android Experience, whether on a Priv, Motion, or Pixel phone. It's not really about typing. It's about the entire written communications workflow, from managing multiple accounts and notifications to reading, drafting documents, managing files and attachments, contacts, revisions, reviews, etc.

    Is there really an argument to be made that any mobile OS has put more focus on writing than BBOS and BB10? That seems like a incontrovertible truth to me.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    12-20-17 01:09 PM
  9. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Most are all-touch, occasionally a a pkb here or there. In some circumstances, these users may not have Android as an option if it isn't supported within the organization. Many midsized companies we work with won't support them just because it's too fragmented and they require ios or blackberry devices. That said, I also own an iPhone and there is a night and day difference between writing extensively on my z30 vs my iPhone. I don't mind writing at length on the z30, but I find writing on the iPhone to be a tedious and laborious task.
    I personally despise typing on iOS, so I get you - but I also have to admit that people who are used to it can positively fly. But I think it's pretty clear that a BB10 all-touch and an Android all-touch (perhaps with SwiftKey or even the BB VKB) aren't much different from each other. In your example, people are artificially being limited from an Android option, so it's not really a "free market" comparison. I'm assuming that also means that BB Android phones are not allowed either - which means that, soon, those companies will either be iOS-exclusive, or they're going to have to start accepting at least a few Android devices...
    12-20-17 01:14 PM
  10. JSmith422's Avatar
    Then why bring up literacy at all? What, in your mind, WAS the connection between literacy and people choosing BB phones?



    Perhaps it's true that I made that association, but I don't think I'm the only one who saw an implication there. Again, why bring up literacy if it's irrelevant to the conversation? Obviously users of smartphones generally need to be able to read (pretty hard to use them if you can't), so the differentiator would be "full literacy" vs. the "partially literate" who, per your example, are targeted by advertisers at their level and who you infer (in my opinion) are going to choose a multimedia-prioritized phone over a text-prioritized phone because they don't read well.

    That may not be what you intended to say, but it's how it came across to me, at least.
    Again, that's not the implication I got from his post at all, nor do I think it was an irrelevant point. It's more nuanced than you're making it - but I'll let him defend his own post.
    12-20-17 01:14 PM
  11. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Then why bring up literacy at all? What, in your mind, WAS the connection between literacy and people choosing BB phones?



    Perhaps it's true that I made that association, but I don't think I'm the only one who saw an implication there. Again, why bring up literacy if it's irrelevant to the conversation? Obviously users of smartphones generally need to be able to read (pretty hard to use them if you can't), so the differentiator would be "full literacy" vs. the "partially literate" who, per your example, are targeted by advertisers at their level and who you infer (in my opinion) are going to choose a multimedia-prioritized phone over a text-prioritized phone because they don't read well.

    That may not be what you intended to say, but it's how it came across to me, at least.
    Because it's silly to imagine that someone without significantly above average literacy skills would take or succeed in a job where their ability to produce large volumes of high quality writing is a core job requirement.

    I'm not saying that BlackBerry users are more literate than non-BlackBerry users. I'm saying that I can think of no rational reason that the majority of the population that isn't fully literate would benefit from a phone that is optimized for high volumes of written work.

    This is a counter to the BlackBerry fans who claim that BB10 could have been more successful if only (fill in the blank). I'm saying that their market was always limited because of the underlying design choices that favored writing over multimedia and apps.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    12-20-17 01:17 PM
  12. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Again, that's not the implication I got from his post at all, nor do I think it was an irrelevant point. It's more nuanced than you're making it - but I'll let him defend his own post.
    If he'd simply said "folks who prioritize written communication, including complex attachments, notations, formatting, etc. choose BB because they really focused on making those tasks simple, fast, and powerful" I'd have had zero problem with that. In fact, I agree that that's a BB10 strength, and have never said otherwise. I know that you can accomplish all of those things with Android, but I'll admit that in some of those areas, it's a little more "clunky" than BB10 and could stand to be improved. I'm ALL about having optimized tools for the job - in fact, it's what makes me so good at my job(s) - I have great attention to detail about those kinds of things.

    I just felt that the literacy angle was really only there to imply some kind of a superiority complex...
    12-20-17 01:23 PM
  13. JSmith422's Avatar
    I personally despise typing on iOS, so I get you - but I also have to admit that people who are used to it can positively fly. But I think it's pretty clear that a BB10 all-touch and an Android all-touch (perhaps with SwiftKey or even the BB VKB) aren't much different from each other. In your example, people are artificially being limited from an Android option, so it's not really a "free market" comparison. I'm assuming that also means that BB Android phones are not allowed either - which means that, soon, those companies will either be iOS-exclusive, or they're going to have to start accepting at least a few Android devices...
    At present that's true, and although it may not be a "free market" it is "the real market." I'm slowly seeing more and more go strictly ios....its only a select few that really need the robust communication features of BlackBerry. The funny part is that when they do go soley ios, now you see all those same guys carrying three devices. IPhone, iPad, and a laptop. Like bb10adopter says, it's not just about the keyboard, there's a lot more too it and it has to do with multiple accounts, workflows, notifications, file handling and integration, etc....IMO, for those doing extensive writing and document processing, bb10 is the closest you can get a to laptop in your pocket.
    12-20-17 01:24 PM
  14. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Haha, seriously though.....I didn't write half of post #184 .
    I saw it too in a couple of different posts. I think CBForum site was glitching briefly.
    12-20-17 01:25 PM
  15. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    I saw it too in a couple of different posts. I think CBForum site was glitching briefly.
    Yes. It was closing the quote codes after the poster's ID in "reply with quote". That led to including the rest of the quote as plain text.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    12-20-17 01:28 PM
  16. JSmith422's Avatar
    Sure. I could easily accept that argument as well, though I think we'd both agree that it's far from automatic that just buying a BB phone gives you privacy. You still need to configure many things and you need to know what you're doing. But, yes, I think you can achieve a higher level of privacy with a BB10 phone, and maybe slightly higher with a BB Android, than with stock Android or iOS. I have no problem accepting that as a valid reason.
    I'd agree to an extent, but I'm not convinced BlackBerry Android is more private than ios....our analysis has actually shown otherwise (please remember there is a difference between privacy and security, I'm NOT commenting on security) bb10 on the other hand has proven to be far more private than either ios or any Android we've looked at to date. That said, we are currently in the very early stages of looking at Copperhead OS....can't comment on it just yet, but if anyone has experience I'd love to hear it.
    12-20-17 01:31 PM
  17. glwerry's Avatar
    You see... You have a million plus apps on each platform ( iPhone and Andriod) and some people are going to change platform and buy a new phone just because of a few apps!! Must be a life or death situation !! No disrespect! I just find it a bit odd just over an app that's all.
    That's not as stupid as you make it sound.

    I had a Classic and really enjoyed it. However, I could NOT get Google Hangouts to work on it. I attempted to use the browser / mobile site - it was a disaster.
    I wanted to have this app because my workplace uses Google apps and I wanted to be able to stay in touch with the office while away, to help support certain software.

    So, I am now on a PRIV.

    It's not a "life or death" issue, but for me it was a CRITICAL missing!
    12-20-17 01:32 PM
  18. JSmith422's Avatar
    I saw it too in a couple of different posts. I think CBForum site was glitching briefly.
    Yeah, it happened in another thread too...the rendering was all messed up. Too much work to go back and fix. Ha.
    12-20-17 01:33 PM
  19. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Because it's silly to imagine that someone without significantly above average literacy skills would take or succeed in a job where their ability to produce large volumes of high quality writing is a core job requirement.
    Except, that happens ALL THE TIME. I had mentioned earlier that many of the executives I worked with at a bank/credit card company - whose job required tons of important and specific written communication - were TERRIBLE at written communication. They relied heavily on administrative assistance to re-write and clean up their work. When they did write their own messages, they were barely literate - you'd think they were 6th Grade girls texting each other, but with less emojis. LOL.

    Anyway, I get your point. I think we can both agree that BB focused on written communication while mobile and the work-flows around that, and did it well, and I understand that you were trying to say that people who didn't prioritize that or value it would have little reason to choose a BB. If you'd simply said that, I'd have had no issue at all.

    Can you see, though, how bringing up illiteracy, and advertisers targeting "7th grade reading levels" could be seen as an implication that you were talking down to some people, and in any case, was not really relevant to the previous point, on which we both agree?
    12-20-17 01:33 PM
  20. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    I just felt that the literacy angle was really only there to imply some kind of a superiority complex...
    I know you did, and I'm sorry that my focus on literacy (which is a huge issue in terms of economic equity and is therefore always a loaded issue) caused that reaction.

    But I believe that omitting the reality about literacy distorts one of the key reasons that BB10, as designed and implemented, could never have appealed to the vast majority of the mobile market. Whereas the iPhone and Android were designed to emphasize a highly engaging, multimedia experience, BB10 phones, in comparison, just sit there waiting for you to write something!

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    12-20-17 01:36 PM
  21. glwerry's Avatar
    Seriously, the glass slab looks the same on my DTEKs and my Alcatel. I appreciate the BBAndroid difference, however it's not really that big a deal. VKB is a VKB.....
    I'm going to disagree, although for a different reason.

    Caveat: I'm a hard-core PKB person, using a PRIV. So, my VKB skills are really basic and slow.

    I do find, when using a VKB, that SIZE is incredibly important - my wife had an iPhone 5 (skinny little screen): in portrait mode the keys were so close together that typing was horrifying - landscape mode they were just too far apart to use well.
    When her contract came up and we were looking for a new, wider screen phone, we were looking at either an Android or spending HUNDREDS of dollars more to get a wider-screened Apple product.

    So, the wife now rocks a PRIV. It was hard for her to transition to Android from IOS and she still prefers Apple, but we can both now use the VKB decently.
    12-20-17 01:43 PM
  22. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Except, that happens ALL THE TIME. I had mentioned earlier that many of the executives I worked with at a bank/credit card company - whose job required tons of important and specific written communication - were TERRIBLE at written communication. They relied heavily on administrative assistance to re-write and clean up their work. When they did write their own messages, they were barely literate - you'd think they were 6th Grade girls texting each other, but with less emojis. LOL.

    Anyway, I get your point. I think we can both agree that BB focused on written communication while mobile and the work-flows around that, and did it well, and I understand that you were trying to say that people who didn't prioritize that or value it would have little reason to choose a BB. If you'd simply said that, I'd have had no issue at all.

    Can you see, though, how bringing up illiteracy, and advertisers targeting "7th grade reading levels" could be seen as an implication that you were talking down to some people, and in any case, was not really relevant to the previous point, on which we both agree?
    Yes, I completely understand why the low levels of literacy in our society is a loaded issue. But my point wasn't to claim any kind of superiority for myself or the average BlackBerry user.

    As your experience shows, it's the norm, not the exception, that the majority of people are literate at something akin to a 7th grade level. Television news is specifically written at that level to optimize ratings! And I believe that level of literacy has a lot to do with the majority's choices of activities, media and entertainment, devices, etc.

    The fact that many people in positions of responsibility and power who are required to communicate in writing are functionally Illiterate, as you describe, shows that the correlation between full literacy and achievement is weak.

    It might be that the correlation between full literacy and people like me stubbornly hanging on to a near obsolete phone because it has a small, but measurable, advantage for their written communications is slightly higher. But it is equally possible that there is a much higher correlation with other factors, such as bad teeth which make selfies undesirable! LOL

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    12-20-17 02:00 PM
  23. Emaderton3's Avatar
    LOL. I take 5 minutes breaks after every 25 minutes of work, and CB is one of my "break" activities!

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    You Pomeroy all day?
    12-20-17 02:04 PM
  24. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    You Pomeroy all day?
    More or less, yes. I'm such a huge Pomodoro fan that we use them as a unit of time and synchronize them on our teams so that people don't interrupt each other!

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    12-20-17 02:07 PM
  25. Emaderton3's Avatar
    More or less, yes. I'm such a huge Pomodoro fan that we use them as a unit of time and synchronize them on our teams so that people don't interrupt each other!

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    Nice. And I did mean pomodoro. Not sure how it came out the other way.
    12-20-17 02:09 PM
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