02-12-18 07:31 AM
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  1. scubafan's Avatar

    And on the topic of privacy and security, data collection and so on... It makes the world better, its how we learn and progress. You should not have a lingering cloud of fear of your personal life or details being exposed. Most people are pretty similar no matter what they think they know.

    A smart tactic would be to use these breaches and insecurities to improve how you adapt to modern living. Nothing wrong with a fake identity, infact I think that is best security you can get in the public eye. It can be so simple and so harmless. These things are available to us, you cant play the sheep or overexaggerate risks or dangers.
    Posted via CB10
    I think it all depends on your point of view! I really don't care whether I'm similar to others or not!

    I do personally know three people who had their identity stolen, which caused headaches for them that lasted over a decade. I don't fear danger, not to life. But I actually value my privacy & deeply resent the way google & others think that they have a "right" to vacuum up every possible scrap of info about my life in order to make a profit selling it without giving me ANY value in return! (before you ask-no, I have zero social media & never search with google)

    Of course, the more data is collected, the more they want. If BlackBerry had been able to remain even a niche player in the market I wouldn't be bothering to find out anything else regarding android. The flow is kludgey at best compared to BB10, it's harder to shut down apps without them restarting.

    So I still wouldn't get far using the fake identity idea since I would have to be giving google a phone number that has a real name & other info otherwise the cell won't work. And unless I find some way to prevent it, the basic TOS just to turn ON an android phone gives them ability to read, modify or delete anything on the device. I can't do my work with patients without being able to call or text them or set reminders in my calendar to do things for them.

    Every one of those would be a HIPAA violation just to turn the device on, without even using it! Plus, I put MY appointments to see various Doctors as well. I really don't give a rat's fuzzy butt whether others care or not, as far as I'm concerned none of that is anyone's business besides mine!

    So I'll keep looking for other options while using my REAL BlackBerry.

    Just my $.02, YMMV ! ;-) sent via my Q10
    01-29-18 03:06 PM
  2. Trouveur's Avatar
    So does anyone know whether either of these would work for getting back the granular control of permissions? Since I have never wanted to trade data for ANYTHING I still want to learn more about the options for after my BB10 devices aren't viable for my needs. I'm not eager to switch back to the flip phone I had in the 1990's but I'll never be willing to share a single byte with google!

    Thoughts?

    Just my $.02, YMMV ! ;-) sent via my Q10
    Maybe then Sailfish OS would be a better choice for you.


    Posted via CB10
    01-29-18 03:46 PM
  3. JSmith422's Avatar
    So does anyone know whether either of these would work for getting back the granular control of permissions? Since I have never wanted to trade data for ANYTHING I still want to learn more about the options for after my BB10 devices aren't viable for my needs. I'm not eager to switch back to the flip phone I had in the 1990's but I'll never be willing to share a single byte with google!

    Thoughts?

    Just my $.02, YMMV ! ;-) sent via my Q10
    My understanding is that Copperhead OS is about as private as you can get and still be using a mobile device. I haven't used it yet personally, but we are evaluating it, and I understand it can be quite granular. Like anything though, it's not without its own risks and limitations.

    I'm basically giving up on the idea of one device. Going forward I see at least two, perhaps three in my future.

    Ios for the use of certain Apps, and BB10 for communication which ultimately will need to be replaced by a security hardened Android because IOS refuses to allow a file manager and a different keyboard. At this point, we're searching for what that device will be.

    Like you, we're open to ideas. My current thought is Copperhead OS running blackberry productivity with swift key keyboard....though I'm not sure this will pass compliance.

    Blackberry Mobile probably has better hardware security with their "root of trust" than does Copperhead, but Blackberry Android is undoubtedly going to send things to Google....Copperhead won't. So the question is, who is the bigger threat, somebody that gains physical access to your device and then wants to invest substantial time and resources into decrypting or Google, which will have all the same information from day 1?

    Matter of opinion I suppose....but personally, I see Google as the bigger threat.

    Would like to hear more about how you're approaching this. I've posted several times and nobody has really put forth a viable/scalable solution (or really, any solution) yet. The one I've outlined above seems to be the closest I can come up with using the information I have.

    But then the question is, do you trust the developers of Copperhead? It's a two man shop up in Canada. The code is open source so you can review every line of it, but it hinders scalability because who has the resources to analyze every single update they issue? I know we don't.
    01-29-18 08:28 PM
  4. JSmith422's Avatar
    I think it all depends on your point of view! I really don't care whether I'm similar to others or not!

    I do personally know three people who had their identity stolen, which caused headaches for them that lasted over a decade. I don't fear danger, not to life. But I actually value my privacy & deeply resent the way google & others think that they have a "right" to vacuum up every possible scrap of info about my life in order to make a profit selling it without giving me ANY value in return! (before you ask-no, I have zero social media & never search with google)

    Of course, the more data is collected, the more they want. If BlackBerry had been able to remain even a niche player in the market I wouldn't be bothering to find out anything else regarding android. The flow is kludgey at best compared to BB10, it's harder to shut down apps without them restarting.

    So I still wouldn't get far using the fake identity idea since I would have to be giving google a phone number that has a real name & other info otherwise the cell won't work. And unless I find some way to prevent it, the basic TOS just to turn ON an android phone gives them ability to read, modify or delete anything on the device. I can't do my work with patients without being able to call or text them or set reminders in my calendar to do things for them.

    Every one of those would be a HIPAA violation just to turn the device on, without even using it! Plus, I put MY appointments to see various Doctors as well. I really don't give a rat's fuzzy butt whether others care or not, as far as I'm concerned none of that is anyone's business besides mine!

    So I'll keep looking for other options while using my REAL BlackBerry.

    Just my $.02, YMMV ! ;-) sent via my Q10
    +1
    01-29-18 08:33 PM
  5. JSmith422's Avatar
    I live in the EU. Just to be precise, what exactly do you want the EU to do about this?
    Or more precisely, how is that expected to benefit your beloved OS, BB10?

    Two broad allegations used to be made in these forums about Google, which -according to these posters- would warrant Commission action: alleged anticompetitive behavior, and serious concerns about data privacy -which according to the above reasoning, would violate European legislation-

    1. Just assume that the Commission fines Google for anticompetitive behavior and forces it to do X. Even if this happens, "X"' will be a measure like those that was handed out to Microsoft - I mean the browser case or the Media Player case
    For example, when activating an Android phone, on European devices a popup will appear saying that "Did you know that you can use a different search engine/browser/etc/etc"
    How would this benefit BB10?

    2. Lets move to the second issue, data privacy. Even if some change were forced on Google to alter its privacy policies, neither the Commission nor the member states are going to ban Android, however much anyone in the BB10 world will want them to.
    Do not forget, in most European ctries, Android has a higher market share than in the States or Canada.
    So, how would this benefit BB10? Even if every single country of whole EU just outlawed Android with a stroke of pen (which would violate the Constitution in many countries, not to mention a host of international agreements), it wouldn"t improve the situation of BB10 by one iota - as it is a dead OS made by a company which de facto EOLd it already.

    So TLDR - no, the EU or the European Commission is not going to save BB10
    I think you've missed the point. I don't believe anyone is suggesting that this will save BB10, but rather what you're hearing is frustration that there isn't a single provider out there that respects privacy in any meaningful way.

    I could be wrong, but in my opinion people are "OK" with these practices largely because they don't know that they are actually happening.

    One could argue that it's "disclosed" but in reality we all know the average user is not aware of what the TOS say because they are intentionally written to mislead the consumer. They're overly long, dense, and rather ambiguous legalese. It would take a team of lawyers and a thorough review of existing case law to determine what is actually being "disclosed." But it would probably surmount to "we can do whatever we want on this device, and by using this device, you understand you have zero right to, or expectation of any privacy whatsoever. We can see what do, hear what you say, and record and collect whatever we want whenever we want. Further, once we collect that information, it becomes ours forever and we can sell it, give it, or analyze it however we choose to do so, including to create psychographic profiles on you."

    I keep hearing 'nobody cares about those things, the market has spoken' but if that's true, and nobody cares, then it shouldn't be a problem at all for these companies to CLEARLY disclose what exactly is collected and what is done with it....in do it in a way that a 10 year old could understand, and make an informed decision whether or not to use the service.

    So if they aren't disclosing it that way, why not? I'm willing to bet it's because they already know people DO care.
    01-29-18 08:55 PM
  6. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I think you've missed the point. I don't believe anyone is suggesting that this will save BB10, but rather what you're hearing is frustration that there isn't a single provider out there that respects privacy in any meaningful way.

    I could be wrong, but in my opinion people are "OK" with these practices largely because they don't know that they are actually happening.

    One could argue that it's "disclosed" but in reality we all know the average user is not aware of what the TOS say because they are intentionally written to mislead the consumer. They're overly long, dense, and rather ambiguous legalese. It would take a team of lawyers and a thorough review of existing case law to determine what is actually being "disclosed." But it would probably surmount to "we can do whatever we want on this device, and by using this device, you understand you have zero right to, or expectation of any privacy whatsoever. We can see what do, hear what you say, and record and collect whatever we want whenever we want. Further, once we collect that information, it becomes ours forever and we can sell it, give it, or analyze it however we choose to do so, including to create psychographic profiles on you."

    I keep hearing 'nobody cares about those things, the market has spoken' but if that's true, and nobody cares, then it shouldn't be a problem at all for these companies to CLEARLY disclose what exactly is collected and what is done with it....in do it in a way that a 10 year old could understand, and make an informed decision whether or not to use the service.

    So if they aren't disclosing it that way, why not? I'm willing to bet it's because they already know people DO care.
    The reason is that a 10 year old can't legally enter into a binding contract in most jurisdictions.

    The legal documents are written in such a way so as to attempt to close every possible loophole. Be realistic, this is how all contracts are written in the corporate environment and not just regarding Android/IOS.

    People agree to all of this because technology makes humans more indifferent.
    01-29-18 09:12 PM
  7. conite's Avatar

    I could be wrong, but in my opinion people are "OK" with these practices largely because they don't know that they are actually happening.
    I think most people would tell you that they pretty much assume Google knows a whole pile if not everything about them.

    BUT, most people would also say that Google is not flippant with the data, and it is unlikely to escape into the wild.

    Regardless, they think this is an acceptable risk in return for a staggering number of useful services.

    People aren't that naive.
    01-29-18 10:09 PM
  8. JSmith422's Avatar
    The reason is that a 10 year old can't legally enter into a binding contract in most jurisdictions.

    The legal documents are written in such a way so as to attempt to close every possible loophole. Be realistic, this is how all contracts are written in the corporate environment and not just regarding Android/IOS.

    People agree to all of this because technology makes humans more indifferent.
    You're comparing apples and oranges. This is not a corporate environment. It's a consumer environment. Consumers are (generally speaking) not held to the same standards as corporations which have the resources and sophistication to analyze such a contract.

    Think about "Caution HOT" on your coffee cup....and what prompted its placement there.

    Further, I'm not saying that a 10 year old would typically have legal capacity to bind oneself to a contract, only that the language should be simple enough that a 10 year old could understand it.

    Plus, if consumers don't care about privacy, then what's the harm in having someone type up a quick one pager and include it as part of a cover letter on the TOS?
    It's not exhaustive, and would spell out in layman's terms exactly what Google and Apple do behind the scenes. Nobody cares, right? So why not include it as a cover page?
    01-29-18 11:07 PM
  9. JSmith422's Avatar
    I think most people would tell you that they pretty much assume Google knows a whole pile if not everything about them.

    BUT, most people would also say that Google is not flippant with the data, and it is unlikely to escape into the wild.

    Regardless, they think this is an acceptable risk in return for a staggering number of useful services.

    People aren't that naive.
    I disagree. But if what you say is true, then adding a one page cover to the TOS spelling it out in layman's terms shouldn't be a problem for anyone.
    01-29-18 11:08 PM
  10. conite's Avatar
    I disagree. But if what you say is true, then adding a one page cover to the TOS spelling it out in layman's terms shouldn't be a problem for anyone.
    Doesn't hurt.

    Hard to summarize this though:

    https://www.google.com/policies/privacy/#infocollect
    01-29-18 11:15 PM
  11. JSmith422's Avatar
    Doesn't hurt.

    Hard to summarize this though:

    https://www.google.com/policies/privacy/#infocollect

    When you call a major corporation it says, "...calls are recorded for quality assurance..." it's straight forward, and people understand it.

    When you use Android it should say, "...all of your calls and text messages are logged by our servers..."

    Transparency would go a long way.
    01-30-18 12:08 AM
  12. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Every 3 months, there is some big exposé on the news where they explain how the sky is falling and all of your information is being tracked and saved. I see slightly different versions of the same story over and over again, and have for years. I'm sure you've seen them too. Yet, people aren't abandoning their smartphones or their web browsers.

    Most people use loyalty cards at the supermarket and give their phone number when they buy auto parts or crap at CVS. Their banks and their cell phone carriers know tons about them, as does their home ISP. And don't get me started on how many times a day people are on a security camera or license-plate reader.

    People may not understand the depth of how they're being tracked, but almost everyone has had it explained to them - at least at a basic level - that they're being tracked constantly. Yet, the vast majority aren't changing their usage habits. I know tons of people who use the same password at every site and every secure thing they have, because using a different password is inconvenient (and some have trouble remembering that ONE password!).

    Even if you sat people down for a whole hour and explained all the ways Google can get your data when you use their services, MOST people would still HAPPILY trade their privacy in order not to have to pay cash to use those services. A handful would rebel for a while, but eventually the utility and ease-of-use of those services would suck them back in. Very, very few people are so concerned that they're willing to give them up entirely. And that's not likely to change.

    And without mass support, these privacy-first OSs and platforms aren't likely to get enough customers to survive. Most people simply aren't prepared to put their money up - and those companies desperately need that money, because none of them are profitable today. Look at BlackPhone and the Boeing phone that tanked - lots of people SAID they were interested, but virtually no one was willing to pay the price and buy those phones and give up all the services they were used to.

    That's what you're facing, and it isn't getting any easier.
    pdr733 and kbz1960 like this.
    01-30-18 02:57 AM
  13. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    You're comparing apples and oranges. This is not a corporate environment. It's a consumer environment. Consumers are (generally speaking) not held to the same standards as corporations which have the resources and sophistication to analyze such a contract.

    Think about "Caution HOT" on your coffee cup....and what prompted its placement there.

    Further, I'm not saying that a 10 year old would typically have legal capacity to bind oneself to a contract, only that the language should be simple enough that a 10 year old could understand it.

    Plus, if consumers don't care about privacy, then what's the harm in having someone type up a quick one pager and include it as part of a cover letter on the TOS?
    It's not exhaustive, and would spell out in layman's terms exactly what Google and Apple do behind the scenes. Nobody cares, right? So why not include it as a cover page?
    You're assuming that people will respond the same way as you "if only they were better informed" . The reality is they don't care as much as you think. Even so, we're a free society to choose. If you think it will help your cause, spread the word on Facebook or LinkedIn. Walk around the mall and tell people. The indifference will continue and will amaze you.
    01-30-18 04:20 AM
  14. JSmith422's Avatar
    You're assuming that people will respond the same way as you "if only they were better informed" . The reality is they don't care as much as you think. Even so, we're a free society to choose. If you think it will help your cause, spread the word on Facebook or LinkedIn. Walk around the mall and tell people. The indifference will continue and will amaze you.
    Are you not assuming that others will respond the same as you despite the fact that they've become better informed? Hypocritical don't you think?

    The 'reality' is that people ARE concerned for their privacy, and regardless of whether or not you believe they'll put their money where their mouth is, is frankly immaterial. The bottom line is that people (including you) have no idea what Google or any of these other companies are collecting or what's being done with that information.

    Mobile devices have become a utility in our society and are now required for basic function. When something reaches that level of ubiquity, the public has a Right to know what's going on....just like with your electric or gas company.
    01-30-18 05:39 AM
  15. conite's Avatar
    When you call a major corporation it says, "...calls are recorded for quality assurance..." it's straight forward, and people understand it.

    When you use Android it should say, "...all of your calls and text messages are logged by our servers..."

    Transparency would go a long way.
    More accurately:

    "Personal information is being collected and used so we can improve & tailor our services to you, and provide you with targeted advertising. NONE of this personal information is provided to ANY third party.

    You can also opt out of a good deal of data collection."

    Who would return their phone to the store after reading that?
    01-30-18 07:01 AM
  16. Emaderton3's Avatar
    I would also bet that the majority of people don't even bother reading the terms of service for their phones or other services for that matter.
    01-30-18 07:51 AM
  17. scubafan's Avatar
    More accurately:

    "Personal information is being collected and used so we can improve & tailor our services to you, and provide you with targeted advertising. NONE of this personal information is provided to ANY third party.

    You can also opt out of a good deal of data collection."

    Who would return their phone to the store after reading that?
    But that ISN'T what happens! They actually take the data and combine it with everything else they can get from the other companies that track everything in order to not only be capable of tailoring ads to users but also to go after all of the people who DIDN'T want anything to do with any of their "wonderful" products and services! Every ***** that blindly shares their contacts with the world that happens to be related to me or just a casual acquaintance that needed my number at one time shares my basic contact info despite that for years my number was unpublished aka an unlisted number.

    I disagree with your 1st paragraph too, since they DO share & sell data to a multitude of other firms. And as I keep repeating, you CAN'T opt out of sharing your entire life with google if you so much as power up an android device. All they offer is to possibly be able to stop some of the apps on your device from reading everything. But no matter what users do there's no method I'm aware of to prevent google from spying on users at a level that would astound espionage organizations of just a few years ago!

    Just my $.02, YMMV ! ;-) sent via my Q10
    01-30-18 09:11 AM
  18. conite's Avatar
    But that ISN'T what happens! They actually take the data and combine it with everything else they can get from the other companies that track everything in order to not only be capable of tailoring ads to users but also to go after all of the people who DIDN'T want anything to do with any of their "wonderful" products and services! Every ***** that blindly shares their contacts with the world that happens to be related to me or just a casual acquaintance that needed my number at one time shares my basic contact info despite that for years my number was unpublished aka an unlisted number.

    I disagree with your 1st paragraph too, since they DO share & sell data to a multitude of other firms. And as I keep repeating, you CAN'T opt out of sharing your entire life with google if you so much as power up an android device. All they offer is to possibly be able to stop some of the apps on your device from reading everything. But no matter what users do there's no method I'm aware of to prevent google from spying on users at a level that would astound espionage organizations of just a few years ago!

    Just my $.02, YMMV ! ;-) sent via my Q10
    We are talking about a ToS that you, as a user, signs before using said device.

    They can combine all they like, but no identifying info leaves their server or is provided to any third party.

    They can sell anonymous/aggregate info until the cows come home, but nothing identifying.

    I never said you can opt out of all collection - just some ("a good deal").

    This is all in specific response to providing a "cover sheet" to the ToS.
    01-30-18 09:25 AM
  19. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    But that ISN'T what happens! They actually take the data and combine it with everything else they can get from the other companies that track everything in order to not only be capable of tailoring ads to users but also to go after all of the people who DIDN'T want anything to do with any of their "wonderful" products and services! Every ***** that blindly shares their contacts with the world that happens to be related to me or just a casual acquaintance that needed my number at one time shares my basic contact info despite that for years my number was unpublished aka an unlisted number.

    I disagree with your 1st paragraph too, since they DO share & sell data to a multitude of other firms. And as I keep repeating, you CAN'T opt out of sharing your entire life with google if you so much as power up an android device. All they offer is to possibly be able to stop some of the apps on your device from reading everything. But no matter what users do there's no method I'm aware of to prevent google from spying on users at a level that would astound espionage organizations of just a few years ago!

    Just my $.02, YMMV ! ;-) sent via my Q10
    Twenty years ago with the advent of search engines and their algorithms, people started finding my unlisted phone number and private email addresses because of primitive data aggregating mixed with tracking cookies.

    I don't think it's possible to achieve the level of privacy you want by just using a dumb phone. If you're on the Internet, your data is being aggregated. It seems like they're more intrusive. Perhaps, they've always collected all this data and they're just better at mining it now.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    01-30-18 09:27 AM
  20. ThatGuyUSA's Avatar
    Twenty years ago with the advent of search engines and their algorithms, people started finding my unlisted phone number and private email addresses because of primitive data aggregating mixed with tracking cookies.

    I don't think it's possible to achieve the level of privacy you want by just using a dumb phone. If you're on the Internet, your data is being aggregated. It seems like they're more intrusive. Perhaps, they've always collected all this data and they're just better at mining it now.
    The great problem with privacy is our own Government. In most states if you register to vote, all of you information is posted/available on line. What a great move, yet our officials did exempt themselves of coarse. Yet most people today gladly post everything to Face Book. Yet scream about privacy. So the phone is really not the week link, its the end user and so on. If people paid attention to what the Government really does instead of what they want you to watch....people would be shocked. Privacy is dead.

    Woof!
    kbz1960 likes this.
    01-30-18 09:54 AM
  21. Emaderton3's Avatar
    We are talking about a ToS that you, as a user, signs before using said device.

    They can combine all they like, but no identifying info leaves their server or is provided to any third party.

    They can sell anonymous/aggregate info until the cows come home, but nothing identifying.

    I never said you can opt out of all collection - just some ("a good deal").

    This is all in specific response to providing a "cover sheet" to the ToS.
    I think that is where the trust must be placed (or questioned)--is the data truly de-identified. If so (if one chooses to believe), it is no different than what banks, insurance companies, etc have been doing. However, the scale is much different.
    01-30-18 11:30 AM
  22. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    We are talking about a ToS that you, as a user, signs before using said device.

    They can combine all they like, but no identifying info leaves their server or is provided to any third party.

    They can sell anonymous/aggregate info until the cows come home, but nothing identifying.

    I never said you can opt out of all collection - just some ("a good deal").

    This is all in specific response to providing a "cover sheet" to the ToS.
    The definition that Google and other companies use for PID is based on a list of fields that includes government identity numbers names, addresses, phone numbers, etc.

    However, it excludes huge volumes of information such as hardware/browser profiles, search results and other "anonymous" information that "third parties" can readily combine with their own data from tracking cookies and other sources to identify individual users. Researchers have demonstrated that this is quite simple to accomplish.

    This is why the data is so valuable and how companies monetize it. There are many digital marketing companies providing this service to retail companies.

    As an example, I searched Google on my desktop computer the other day for a coffee maker for a housewarming gift, but I didn't follow any links. I just browsed the prices on the right in the search results. My computer clears all cookies when I close the browser, unless they are whitelisted.

    Two days later I went to Best Buy to look for clearance audio gear. I normally leave location services off on my KEYone unless I need it for something specific, but I leave the GPS sensor on on my Z10.

    After spending 30 minutes in the store, I decided to download a video and check Google Maps on my KEYONE, so I turned on Google location services and connected to the Free WiFi network in Best Buy. Within a minute I received an email from Best Buy promoting counter top appliances, including coffeemakers.

    The act of turning on my phone and connecting location services and WiFi let Best Buy know who I was and what I'd searched for on Google two days before. I don't believe that Google violated its TOS, so the logical answer is that the aggregated information, combined with other information held by Best Buy and its digital marketing partners allowed them to resolve my anonymized information from Google to my PID.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    01-30-18 12:32 PM
  23. conite's Avatar
    The act of turning on my phone and connecting location services and WiFi let Best Buy know who I was and what I'd searched for on Google two days before.
    Well that has never happened to me, and you would consider me reckless by comparison with my security and privacy behaviour.

    Hard to evaluate a single anecdote and drill down to other possibilities including dumb luck. You may be remembering a Google notification instead of a direct email.

    I have cross-google stories all the time, but NEVER a personal, directed email from a 3rd party relying on specific information from Google.
    Last edited by conite; 01-30-18 at 01:28 PM.
    01-30-18 12:39 PM
  24. dbq10's Avatar
    I keep my old Q10 activated with a grandfathered, prepaid voice-only, no data plan just to have an alternate phone number to give out when it's a "required field" on online forms. The old Q never leaves the house. A number of trackers still think I'm living in a different state.
    01-30-18 12:51 PM
  25. JSmith422's Avatar
    More accurately:

    "Personal information is being collected and used so we can improve & tailor our services to you, and provide you with targeted advertising. NONE of this personal information is provided to ANY third party.

    You can also opt out of a good deal of data collection."

    Who would return their phone to the store after reading that?
    What you've written above is simply NOT a factual statement.

    The following is straight from the Google link YOU provided:

    "When you use our services or view content provided by Google, we automatically collect and store certain information in server logs.

    This includes: ...telephony log information like your phone number, calling-party number, forwarding numbers, time and date of calls, duration of calls, SMS routing information and types of calls."

    It's just one of many possible privacy intrusions that exists.‎

    They further state:

    " ...‎We provide personal information to our affiliates or other trusted businesses or persons..."

    There are literally dozens of scenarios outlined where that information is provided to others, some with 'consent' and where by using the device at all, you have already 'consented'.‎

    I stand by my prior language. Consumers deserve straightforward and clear information so they can make an informed decision. ‎
    01-30-18 01:07 PM
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