01-16-20 08:18 PM
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  1. DonHB's Avatar
    Create a new thread with a poll and ask how many would like to see a new BB10 released and your bulletpoints of what this new BB10 would look like (ie: Apps support, android version support etc) vs more devices using the BB Secure Android using TCL or whoever with Android 10+

    That should give you all the feedback you need on whether you can stop with the endless dreaming or actually do something besides ramble on here with no plan
    If I was assured that Armchair CEOs would not coop the thread (with apologies to the OP) I would.
    01-15-20 06:20 PM
  2. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Create a new thread with a poll and ask how many would like to see a new BB10 released and your bulletpoints of what this new BB10 would look like (ie: Apps support, android version support etc) vs more devices using the BB Secure Android using TCL or whoever with Android 10+

    That should give you all the feedback you need on whether you can stop with the endless dreaming or actually do something besides ramble on here with no plan
    I have no problem with the rambling on, but the problem with the OT dialog is that I no longer know if the original question was definitively answered.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    mh1983 likes this.
    01-15-20 06:20 PM
  3. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    If I was assured that Armchair CEOs would not coop the thread (with apologies to the OP) I would.
    No assurances in life, but what’s there really to lose?
    01-15-20 06:23 PM
  4. app_Developer's Avatar
    Why did the company invest in BlackBerry Secure if the company was working to exit mobile?

    You clearly don't believe QNX should exist beyond cars. Probably because you don't believe it provides advantages worth the cost. I think the advantages have yet to be realized.
    I think there is great opportunity for QNX in IoT. And then, yes, they are the dominant player in cars.

    But I don’t see any advantage in phones or servers or laptops where you have mature complex ecosystems and complex software stacks and dominant incumbents.
    pdr733 and rarsen like this.
    01-15-20 06:35 PM
  5. joeldf's Avatar
    So, back to the original topic... is it possible to develop BlackBerry 10 apps for personal use now?

    I think I missed that "personal use" qualifier.

    Is there a difference in how the tokens are treated if one wanted to develop their own app vs. building one for anyone to use?

    Just curious how that works.
    01-15-20 06:38 PM
  6. DonHB's Avatar
    I have no problem with the rambling on, but the problem with the OT dialog is that I no longer know if the original question was definitively answered.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    He was able to get a debug token. The question remains about directly installing apps using Sachesi or Darcy's tools. This was confirmed by some.
    01-15-20 08:01 PM
  7. DonHB's Avatar
    I think there is great opportunity for QNX in IoT. And then, yes, they are the dominant player in cars.

    But I don’t see any advantage in phones or servers or laptops where you have mature complex ecosystems and complex software stacks and dominant incumbents.
    The software stack is POSIX and Qt. Should make porting of OSS software easier. Maybe, QNX is considering a more modern cross platform replacement to Qt. One with a development model that may be more suitable to the other BlackBerry products.
    methodinsane likes this.
    01-15-20 08:04 PM
  8. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    QNX is a small middleware OS that's designed to have bigger things built on top of it. If you look at BB10, only about 10% of BB10 code is QNX - really just the foundation - with the other 90% being all-new, smartphone-specific code.

    To use a construction analogy, QNX is the foundation, and BB10 is the rest of the building, including the roof, walls, plumbing, electrical, flooring, windows and window treatments, sewage, cabinets, appliances, etc. Scraping BB10 off of QNX to use it as a base for a smartphone means you get rid of all of the stuff that's a smartphone, which means it all has to be replaced. And trying to rip Linux out from under Android and replace it with QNX is like ripping a slab foundation out from a big house and replacing it with a raised foundation - it's technically possible, but it's quite difficult, insanely expensive, and of dubious value at best. And merely putting QNX under Android doesn't give you BB10's UI, because the UI is part of BB10, not part of QNX.

    Another thing: the fact that Android now has more gestures means that it's MORE difficult to replace those gestures with BB10-style gestures, because all of the apps are developed based on Android's gesture rules, which would break if replaced with BB10 gesture rules.

    Then you have a potential issue that BB may still be bound by their Google Play license (I don't know if there's a time limit to that license that would prevent them from releasing an "Android fork"), so it may not be possible for them to release a phone OS that can use Android apps unless that is a full, Google-compliant Android. Remember: BB signed that license by choice, and are bound by the terms of that license. It's possible they could end it, but it's also possible that there's a clock on that agreement - something like "you can't release an Android fork for 5 years after your last Google-compliant device". In any case, they're legally obligated to abide by their license for as long as their contract with TCL is in effect, which is at least through July 2021.

    But, as we've said a million times already, the cost to do any of these things is far, far larger than you imagine, and not at all in the interests of BB Ltd., TCL, Samsung, Google, or anyone else but you and perhaps a handful of other BB10 diehards, and none of it is ever going to happen.
    01-15-20 09:52 PM
  9. m3ach's Avatar
    If I was assured that Armchair CEOs would not coop the thread (with apologies to the OP) I would.
    Why do you think you will get any different response when you hijack other threads?

    Posted via CB10 using my Classic running 10.3.3.3216
    01-16-20 09:41 AM
  10. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    If I was assured that Armchair CEOs would not coop the thread (with apologies to the OP) I would.
    If the thread is clearly defined, then moderators can keep it on topic, assuming people report OT responses.
    01-16-20 12:30 PM
  11. conite's Avatar
    If the thread is clearly defined, then moderators can keep it on topic, assuming people report OT responses.
    The problem is that Don will not properly frame the question.

    Instead of "would you pay $5,000 to $10,000 for a BB10 autoloader that works on phone x courtesy of some type of joint project?" , he will ask "do you want an autoloader, and how much will you pay?".

    He'll just get predictable answers like "sure, $50" , or "sure, $100", etc. That adds nothing to the real conversation.
    pdr733 likes this.
    01-16-20 12:56 PM
  12. app_Developer's Avatar
    The software stack is POSIX and Qt. Should make porting of OSS software easier. Maybe, QNX is considering a more modern cross platform replacement to Qt. One with a development model that may be more suitable to the other BlackBerry products.
    That’s my point. On servers and laptops and phones we run a lot more than POSIX level APIs and a box of GUI widgets. So windows, iOS, Android and the various Linux distros have a massive head start, including a ton of third party apps and Libs and SDKs that other people use.

    It’s like showing up to a major 10 lane highway with trucks and cars going both directions at 120km/h and all we have is a box with an engine block in it and some other random parts.
    Last edited by app_Developer; 01-16-20 at 02:12 PM.
    rarsen likes this.
    01-16-20 02:00 PM
  13. DonHB's Avatar
    That’s my point. On servers and laptops and phones we run a lot more than POSIX level APIs and a box of GUI widgets. So windows, iOS, Android and the various Linux distros have a massive head start, including a ton of third party apps and Libs and SDKs that other people use.

    It’s like showing up to a major 10 lane highway with trucks and cars going both directions at 120km/h and all we have is a box with an engine block in it and some other random parts.
    An Android virtual machine is where the code runs and calls all the libraries that make Android what it is including the UI. It should be possible to use Cascades to replace the UI elements to make Flow work as the Android UI. Essentially rewriting portions of Android. However this approach may result in the Android fork being 32-bit. This is so that Cascades does not need to be made 64-bit.

    Unless what was done to the operating system in BB10 completely reworked the structure of the OS, I believe that Troy Tiscareno is misrepresenting the facts. QNX Neutrino is a full operating system based on a microkernel with resource managers replacing drivers in operating systems like Windows and Linux. Resource managers are also where the filesystem runs and similar parts of an OS.

    This structure was carried over into QNX 7 and should make the replacement of the OS easier. NOT harder. Also, I think QNX 7 is able to mix 32-bit and 64-bit resource managers due to their running in user mode. This makes reuse of code from BB10 easier as well. Perhaps, someone can confirm that 32-bit and 64-bit resource managers are both able to run in 64-bit QNX?
    01-16-20 03:16 PM
  14. conite's Avatar
    An Android virtual machine is where the code runs and calls all the libraries that make Android what it is including the UI. It should be possible to use Cascades to replace the UI elements to make Flow work as the Android UI. Essentially rewriting portions of Android. However this approach may result in the Android fork being 32-bit. This is so that Cascades does not need to be made 64-bit.

    Unless what was done to the operating system in BB10 completely reworked the structure of the OS, I believe that Troy Tiscareno is misrepresenting the facts. QNX Neutrino is a full operating system based on a microkernel with resource managers replacing drivers in operating systems like Windows and Linux. Resource managers are also where the filesystem runs and similar parts of an OS.

    This structure was carried over into QNX 7 and should make the replacement of the OS easier. NOT harder. Also, I think QNX 7 is able to mix 32-bit and 64-bit resource managers due to their running in user mode. This makes reuse of code from BB10 easier as well. Perhaps, someone can confirm that 32-bit and 64-bit resource managers are both able to run in 64-bit QNX?
    QNX makes up less than 5% of the code for BB10.
    rarsen likes this.
    01-16-20 03:21 PM
  15. DonHB's Avatar
    How much of it is running as resource managers? How much is UX code? Essentially where in the operating system stack is the 95% of the code running?

    The idea here is if BB10 is using the interfaces of Neutrino, theoretically very little of the 32-bit code should need to be touched and left 32-bit.

    Of course this is easy to say when I haven't seen the code. If the layers of the OS remain intact the Focus will be on the glue.
    01-16-20 03:29 PM
  16. app_Developer's Avatar
    How much of it is running as resource managers? How much is UX code? Essentially where in the operating system stack is the 95% of the code running?
    What is the last application or system you wrote (phone or server or whatever). I ask because then we can go through all the things that you used that are not in the kernel (or its drivers).

    Spoiler alert: Conite and Troy are correct.
    JeepBB and rarsen like this.
    01-16-20 03:36 PM
  17. DonHB's Avatar
    What is the last application or system you wrote (phone or server or whatever). I ask because then we can go through all the things that you used that are not in the kernel (or its drivers).

    Spoiler alert: Conite and Troy are correct.
    If most of the 95% are apps included with BB10 and what they interface with (e.g. code managing contacts or the dialer) and the only app I think needs to be updated is the browser isn't the work focused on the 5% of the code? And the glue (not at all trivial)? Those apps remain 32-bit as is the UI. If that last detail forces the decision between having 32-bit Android with Flow UX or 64-bit Android without it. So be it. It can be left to a following release.
    01-16-20 04:42 PM
  18. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Unless what was done to the operating system in BB10 completely reworked the structure of the OS, I believe that Troy Tiscareno is misrepresenting the facts. QNX Neutrino is a full operating system based on a microkernel with resource managers replacing drivers in operating systems like Windows and Linux.
    MS-DOS was a complete OS too, but you aren't going to be able to use it to surf the net, watch Netflix, send an Invoice from QuickBooks, make a phone or video call, listen to music, etc. It doesn't even have a GUI.

    QNX is similar, though it has more modern capabilities to build on - it's a better foundation. It's popular because if you don't need it to do much - say, engine management for a car - it can be very small and fairly easy to work on. That makes it great for IoT and for industrial control (managing valves in a refinery or whatever), but if you want to do anything with it, you have to build a bunch of stuff on top. QNX (the company) built a big package called QNX for Cars that manufacturers can buy and use to build a custom Infotainment system, but even then you just get major generic building blocks with LOTS of assembly and customization required.

    There's a reason that there were 3800 developers working on BB10 for 4 years, and it's not because a dozen guys did all the work while everyone else surfed the web. A smartphone OS is incredibly complex and anything you change could break a dozen other things or undermine security or violate a law somewhere, so you need a ton of experts to oversee design and development. And that is incredibly expensive.

    You want to do the equivalent of turning a yacht into an airplane and you want to do it on a microscopic budget - which is why no one takes your ideas seriously. Doing what you want is possible from a technical point of view, but it would be like heating your Alaskan home by shoveling stacks of $100 bills into the furnace - insanely expensive with zero chance of recovering any of the expense.
    01-16-20 04:57 PM
  19. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    If most of the 95% are apps included with BB10 and what they interface with (e.g. code managing contacts or the dialer) and the only app I think needs to be updated is the browser isn't the work focused on the 5% of the code? And the glue (not at all trivial)? Those apps remain 32-bit as is the UI. If that last detail forces the decision between having 32-bit Android with Flow UX or 64-bit Android without it. So be it. It can be left to a following release.

    What will you do with all the newer or changed APIs that BB10 won't map correctly with a new Android.

    How will the camera work if it's not designed for newer hardware or multiple cameras?

    Will you just leave off a fingerprint scanner?

    What about newer communications standards for WiFi, NFC and Bluetooth?

    Guess leave 5G out at this point....

    Have to update both the email and browser standards....

    New hardware drivers will require the OS to be adjusted to account for changes...

    This would go on and on....
    01-16-20 05:00 PM
  20. app_Developer's Avatar
    If most of the 95% are apps included with BB10 and what they interface with (e.g. code managing contacts or the dialer) and the only app I think needs to be updated is the browser isn't the work focused on the 5% of the code? And the glue (not at all trivial)? Those apps remain 32-bit as is the UI. If that last detail forces the decision between having 32-bit Android with Flow UX or 64-bit Android without it. So be it. It can be left to a following release.
    No the 95% are not the apps. We’re talking about the OS.

    BB10 is QNX plus a LOT of other stuff. I asked you for the last app you wrote (and you ignored my question) because I wanted to go through a specific project of yours as an example.

    So since you didn’t get provide an example I will: think about writing a music app that tells the user the name and the lyrics of a song that she can hear at the time (like playing in the coffee shop or something).

    Now list every call you will make to the “operating system” in order to make your app work. A small fraction of the OS capabilities you need are provided by the kernel or the GUI library. A lot of the calls are provided by other components and frameworks and libraries. The sum of all those components is called BB10. QNX and Qt are just two of those components. That’s what conite and Troy mean when they say QNX is just a small part of a modern phone operating system.

    You seem to think what’s on your phone is QNX plus Qt plus Apps. That’s not how computers work.

    Embedded systems (like in cars) are way simpler. Phones and laptops and such are immensely more complicated and involve many more moving parts. This is why it’s hard to supplant Windows on laptops or Android on phones. Because it’s too big of a problem and takes too much time and money because you have to make a lot of stuff and that takes thousands of people. Apple has thousands of people working on iOS. Google has thousands on Android. My friends at Palm had hundreds even in those days when this stuff was very basic compared to now. They aren’t just drinking lattes done in Cupertino or Mt View. Building and maintaining and supporting a complete modern phone OS is a big deal.
    01-16-20 05:21 PM
  21. DonHB's Avatar
    I would like a better understanding why you all believe that none of the existing code (above the OS) can be reused. Also, why you all believe that abstractions that exist in an OS do not help with this reuse (and replacement of the OS)?
    i_plod_an_dr_void likes this.
    01-16-20 05:53 PM
  22. DonHB's Avatar
    Are you suggesting technical debt is rampant in the code base? If so how do you know?
    01-16-20 06:11 PM
  23. DonHB's Avatar
    What will you do with all the newer or changed APIs that BB10 won't map correctly with a new Android.

    How will the camera work if it's not designed for newer hardware or multiple cameras?

    Will you just leave off a fingerprint scanner?

    What about newer communications standards for WiFi, NFC and Bluetooth?

    Guess leave 5G out at this point....

    Have to update both the email and browser standards....

    New hardware drivers will require the OS to be adjusted to account for changes...

    This would go on and on....
    Do you mean that the existing camera app does not use an API to talk to the hardware and the interface to this hardware is not through OS level drivers (or resource managers)?

    Ironically, my proposal to get BB10 working on new hardware is not about changing any of the included apps (other than the browser) it is about system level stuff. This is for the initial release. It's about more RAM and a modern Android player. Hopefully, Pie or newer. Maybe, adding WiFi 6 support should be considered. Also, I am no fan of anything that uses biometrics even if identifying information is not stored.
    i_plod_an_dr_void likes this.
    01-16-20 07:07 PM
  24. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Do you mean that the existing camera app does not use an API to talk to the hardware and the interface to this hardware is not through OS level drivers (or resource managers)?

    Ironically, my proposal to get BB10 working on new hardware is not about changing any of the included apps (other than the browser) it is about system level stuff. This is for the initial release. It's about more RAM and a modern Android player. Hopefully, Pie or newer. Maybe, adding WiFi 6 support should be considered. Also, I am no fan of anything that uses biometrics even if identifying information is not stored.
    As an example, just to get Qualcomm to write drivers for the Snapdragon S4 Plus so that BB10 phones would exist at all, BlackBerry had to commit to something like a billion dollars worth of components. And BlackBerry agreed because there was no other way to get it done. There are hundreds of components, thousands of commands, and an exponentially large number of potential interactions to be tested and optimized. It's an industrial-level effort, not something a ten or hundred person team can do.

    From the screen of my trusty Z10 using the exceptional BlackBerry VKB.
    01-16-20 07:49 PM
  25. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Do you mean that the existing camera app does not use an API to talk to the hardware and the interface to this hardware is not through OS level drivers (or resource managers)?

    Ironically, my proposal to get BB10 working on new hardware is not about changing any of the included apps (other than the browser) it is about system level stuff. This is for the initial release. It's about more RAM and a modern Android player. Hopefully, Pie or newer. Maybe, adding WiFi 6 support should be considered. Also, I am no fan of anything that uses biometrics even if identifying information is not stored.
    I’m no IT guy, relatively speaking... It really appears you’re oversimplifying your own idea as if things were built with a plug and play capability.

    By what you describe, from your viewpoint, the Unihertz company should be able to accomplish this with BlackBerry Limited easily.
    01-16-20 07:59 PM
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