01-16-20 08:18 PM
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  1. Thud Hardsmack's Avatar
    So, as you have been saying since I have raised the question.

    I suppose you expect to deflate interest from others by claiming this?
    No, he's trying to say it's all well and good to bat around theories of how things might work, but there's not going to be anyone ever making them a reality. There's a difference between an interesting topic and viable business interest.
    01-13-20 02:01 PM
  2. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Passport.

    I am ready to forego the PKB for a device running BB10 with a modern native browser, 6GB of RAM and a modern Android VM that supports all the processors in my device.
    Sorry but your ideas aren't viable or based on reality. And they aren't even new.... When Apple release iOS 7, everyone knew that was the future.... many here expected BB10.3 to be 64-bit - there were some rumors about 64-bit work being done.. And it probable would have been, except in the fall of 2013 Chen was forced to cut BB10 development to what was necessary to sell off the rest of the committed to hardware - that wasn't 64-bit or a new runtime. By the end of 2014 it was over... other than a minor patch that took almost two years to get out.

    If BlackBerry were going to do what you want.... they would have done it back then when the had the people to do it - and a lot more customers than they do now. But it wasn't a viable business model then, and it's even less so today.
    01-13-20 02:50 PM
  3. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Anyway we are off track again.... this isn't about bring back BB10.

    Is it possible for developer to keep creating apps for BB10. Sound like for right now if they really want to they can... at least for themselves. Can they create them and offer them to others?
    01-13-20 02:55 PM
  4. app_Developer's Avatar
    Essentially replacing the underlying OS with the 64-bit QNX 7 to allow full use of RAM and the possibility of a 64-bit version of Android Pie or newer. This would allow underlying system functions and fixes to track with the currently supported OS. There would be an update to the native browser with no UX changes.
    ....

    The target for the initial release are people still using BB10, BBOS and those who value privacy.
    [Emphasis mine]

    So let's say we had two phones in front of us. Phone A is running a current fork of AOSP (no google) on top of Linux. And Phone B is running the same fork of AOSP (no google) on top of QNX.

    And presumably the whole reason we even have an up-to-date Android runtime is to run apps (otherwise what's the point), so let's assume the same set of apps on both phones.

    Of all the privacy exploits that have happened in the past 5 years, how many of them are precluded on the QNX phone? I would argue next to none. The privacy issues that normal people face on phones have everything to do with apps and the services they access with those apps. I've never heard of a normal person's privacy being compromised by a kernel level exploit on a device. High value targets, yes, but what about normal people?
    Last edited by app_Developer; 01-13-20 at 10:23 PM.
    pdr733 and Simo_Dax like this.
    01-13-20 03:03 PM
  5. DonHB's Avatar
    What you don't consider is the UX (Flow) of BB10. So, all things are not equal. Also, with Android supporting gestures it may be easier than before to bring the Flow UX to Android. Even Amazon is now supporting Pie. Also, 64-bit QNX 7 was not introduced until 2017.
    01-15-20 02:47 PM
  6. DonHB's Avatar
    Few have considered what the lack of 64-bit QNX had on the CEO's decision to EoL BB10. Consider that Android was transitioning to 64-bit and it would be almost three years before QNX would make a 64-bit OS commercially available.
    01-15-20 02:55 PM
  7. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    What you don't consider is the UX (Flow) of BB10. So, all things are not equal. Also, with Android supporting gestures it may be easier than before to bring the Flow UX to Android. Even Amazon is now supporting Pie. Also, 64-bit QNX 7 was not introduced until 2017.
    Why does any of this matter? Who is the actual target of this proposal?
    01-15-20 02:56 PM
  8. app_Developer's Avatar
    What you don't consider is the UX (Flow) of BB10. So, all things are not equal. Also, with Android supporting gestures it may be easier than before to bring the Flow UX to Android. Even Amazon is now supporting Pie. Also, 64-bit QNX 7 was not introduced until 2017.
    My question was specifically about privacy. Given the two phones i laid out above, why is one more privacy preserving than the other for a normal user?
    01-15-20 02:57 PM
  9. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Few have considered what the lack of 64-bit QNX had on the CEO's decision to EoL BB10. Consider that Android was transitioning to 64-bit and it would be almost three years before QNX would make a 64-bit OS commercially available.
    The CEOs decision to EOL BB10 was based on the fact that it had failed with previous management and he was hired to successfully transfer the company away from mobile.
    01-15-20 02:59 PM
  10. app_Developer's Avatar
    Few have considered what the lack of 64-bit QNX had on the CEO's decision to EoL BB10. Consider that Android was transitioning to 64-bit and it would be almost three years before QNX would make a 64-bit OS commercially available.
    And here on CB we were still arguing about whether 64-bit is even necessary on a phone. (ARMv8 is much more than just bigger address space. It’s improved instruction set and call ABI and other things that Apple, Palm, and Google all saw as advantages earlier than BB apparently did).

    Of course BB was also late with high PPI screens and other stuff too.
    01-15-20 03:00 PM
  11. conite's Avatar
    Few have considered what the lack of 64-bit QNX had on the CEO's decision to EoL BB10. Consider that Android was transitioning to 64-bit and it would be almost three years before QNX would make a 64-bit OS commercially available.
    The CEOs decision to EOL BB10 was based on the fact that it had failed with previous management and he was hired to successfully transfer the company away from mobile.
    And that decision happened in the fall of 2013.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    01-15-20 03:06 PM
  12. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    The CEOs decision to EOL BB10 was based on the fact that it had failed with previous management and he was hired to successfully transfer the company away from mobile.
    And at this point.... I think he is done.

    End of BBMo isn't the signal for BlackBerry to do something new in smartphones...
    01-15-20 03:27 PM
  13. DonHB's Avatar
    The CEOs decision to EOL BB10 was based on the fact that it had failed with previous management and he was hired to successfully transfer the company away from mobile.
    BlackBerry Secure is not mobile?
    01-15-20 04:03 PM
  14. DonHB's Avatar
    My question was specifically about privacy. Given the two phones i laid out above, why is one more privacy preserving than the other for a normal user?
    What you are not considering is how the use of QNX 7 fits with BlackBerry's IoT direction which includes cars.

    This is also intended to be foundational and a minimalist approach to keep costs as low as possible yet still generate sales of an autoloader. To allow a direction forward that considers customers (including developers) as stakeholders. Something very different from how BlackBerry has done business in the past. Could bring back BBM channels as a means to solicit input for a roadmap.
    01-15-20 04:15 PM
  15. DonHB's Avatar
    One thing QNX did right, I believe, was choosing a third party cross platform native SDK for Neutrino. While some have said porting Qt code to BB10 is short work, Cascades is based on Qt, it is not cross platform.
    01-15-20 04:46 PM
  16. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    What you are not considering is how the use of QNX 7 fits with BlackBerry's IoT direction which includes cars.

    This is also intended to be foundational and a minimalist approach to keep costs as low as possible yet still generate sales of an autoloader. To allow a direction forward that considers customers (including developers) as stakeholders. Something very different from how BlackBerry has done business in the past. Could bring back BBM channels as a means to solicit input for a roadmap.
    Now we are going to resurrect BBM and Channels?

    Heck might as well kick Chen to the curb, and start by signing up Mike and Jim to co-lead the BlackBerry revival. Then bring back the 9900 and BIS.
    01-15-20 04:55 PM
  17. conite's Avatar
    What you are not considering is how the use of QNX 7 fits with BlackBerry's IoT direction which includes cars.

    This is also intended to be foundational and a minimalist approach to keep costs as low as possible yet still generate sales of an autoloader. To allow a direction forward that considers customers (including developers) as stakeholders. Something very different from how BlackBerry has done business in the past. Could bring back BBM channels as a means to solicit input for a roadmap.
    How is spending umpteen millions on a product no one wants a "direction forward"?
    01-15-20 04:56 PM
  18. conite's Avatar
    What you are not considering is how the use of QNX 7 fits with BlackBerry's IoT direction which includes cars.

    This is also intended to be foundational and a minimalist approach to keep costs as low as possible yet still generate sales of an autoloader. To allow a direction forward that considers customers (including developers) as stakeholders. Something very different from how BlackBerry has done business in the past. Could bring back BBM channels as a means to solicit input for a roadmap.
    Now they need to build BBM Channels for BBMe as a necessary precursor to a chat with developers that don't exist? This just keeps getting better.
    JeepBB likes this.
    01-15-20 04:57 PM
  19. conite's Avatar
    What you are not considering is how the use of QNX 7 fits with BlackBerry's IoT direction which includes cars.

    This is also intended to be foundational and a minimalist approach to keep costs as low as possible yet still generate sales of an autoloader. To allow a direction forward that considers customers (including developers) as stakeholders. Something very different from how BlackBerry has done business in the past. Could bring back BBM channels as a means to solicit input for a roadmap.
    You also didn't answer the question regarding privacy - which you brought up first incidentally.
    01-15-20 05:01 PM
  20. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    One thing QNX did right, I believe, was choosing a third party cross platform native SDK for Neutrino. While some have said porting Qt code to BB10 is short work, Cascades is based on Qt, it is not cross platform.
    Here’s an idea to measure true demand. Set up a kickstarter to fund your BB10 project. Simply raise $1 million USD at 1,000 supporters X $1,000USD for instance. How about $100USD X 10,000 supporters.

    When you raise that money offer it to BB to fund real feasibility study.
    conite and app_Developer like this.
    01-15-20 05:02 PM
  21. DonHB's Avatar
    And at this point.... I think he is done.

    End of BBMo isn't the signal for BlackBerry to do something new in smartphones...
    BlackBerry Mobile couldn't get carriers to sell it products in their stores.

    I am suggesting using existing products (like Samsung Knox) not having BB return to producing hardware. In return for not changing any manufacturing lines and not making any investments in hardware means no PKB.
    01-15-20 05:16 PM
  22. app_Developer's Avatar
    What you are not considering is how the use of QNX 7 fits with BlackBerry's IoT direction which includes cars.

    .
    So that's the thing, a normal customer, who isn't a card-carrying BB fan, doesn't really care that QNX is part of BB's overall strategy. A normal customer wants to understand why this Android *** QNX phone is more private than normal Android. And the honest answer is that it isn't any more private for most users.

    If you go to the same websites and use the same apps then it doesn't really matter what kernel you have (except maybe for the exceptional case where you are a specific high value target)

    Or conversely, if I'm on BB mgmt team I'm asking why am I investing in our own fork of Android over QNX when I can just use Linux? What customer pain point is this solving? But then 5 seconds later I'm asking wait, why am I investing in phone anything?
    01-15-20 05:28 PM
  23. DonHB's Avatar
    You also didn't answer the question regarding privacy - which you brought up first incidentally.
    The goal is to also keep the Flow UX and allow the use of native apps while building a foundation. It has been proven difficult to bring the UX to Android/Linux.

    Also, BB10 has been an island among BlackBerry platforms. Upgrading the OS to 64-bit QNX 7 may help ameliorate this issue.
    01-15-20 06:00 PM
  24. DonHB's Avatar
    So that's the thing, a normal customer, who isn't a card-carrying BB fan, doesn't really care that QNX is part of BB's overall strategy. A normal customer wants to understand why this Android *** QNX phone is more private than normal Android. And the honest answer is that it isn't any more private for most users.

    If you go to the same websites and use the same apps then it doesn't really matter what kernel you have (except maybe for the exceptional case where you are a specific high value target)

    Or conversely, if I'm on BB mgmt team I'm asking why am I investing in our own fork of Android over QNX when I can just use Linux? What customer pain point is this solving? But then 5 seconds later I'm asking wait, why am I investing in phone anything?
    Why did the company invest in BlackBerry Secure if the company was working to exit mobile?

    You clearly don't believe QNX should exist beyond cars. Probably because you don't believe it provides advantages worth the cost. I think the advantages have yet to be realized.
    01-15-20 06:17 PM
  25. howarmat's Avatar
    Create a new thread with a poll and ask how many would like to see a new BB10 released and your bulletpoints of what this new BB10 would look like (ie: Apps support, android version support etc) vs more devices using the BB Secure Android using TCL or whoever with Android 10+

    That should give you all the feedback you need on whether you can stop with the endless dreaming or actually do something besides ramble on here with no plan
    Thud Hardsmack likes this.
    01-15-20 06:17 PM
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