01-17-18 11:00 AM
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  1. Invictus0's Avatar
    It probably means a hard end to BBOS7, but die-hards can still soldier on with BB10 as long as standards allow.
    I think that depends on how well BB10 will still function without BB World. If it removes app push notifications, account configuration, etc it may not be very useful for many. BlackBerry should clarify this IMO.
    rayporsche likes this.
    12-15-17 02:20 PM
  2. conite's Avatar
    I think that depends on how well BB10 will still function without BB World. If it removes app push notifications, account configuration, etc it may not be very useful for many. BlackBerry should clarify this IMO.
    I think BlackBerry's position is simply that everyone on a BBOS or BB10 device needs to migrate within 2 years.

    I don't think they'd want to commit to keeping ANYTHING working after that.
    12-15-17 02:35 PM
  3. Trouveur's Avatar
    (1) strange the company will turn away few million users without offer a replacement that would catch their heart - of course, K1, motion etc. any gooberry are not enough (if they are, those folks already jump over the ship)... If I were BB, find something better for exchange BBOS/BB10... no marketing dollar for few million user just some dream marketing scheme for company (I am sure any chinese handset guys will die for it - although chinese handsets control 90% of local market, only 15% in world wide market share collectively-
    They only have KEYone and Motion to offer, BlackBerry exited hardware business last year and rely on the good will of TCL.

    All the BB10 users never translate into money gains for BlackBerry Limited, so it's not now than they are not in the hardware business that they will succeed at doing this...


    Posted via CB10
    12-15-17 02:37 PM
  4. DallinCrump's Avatar
    You raise good points. However, you may have missed one thing.
    If you are using an Android app under BB10 (via the emulator), then how do know that THAT APP isn't sending data back to the owner about you?

    Other than that, your points are fundamentally sound.
    The short answer is you should assume that if an Android app tracks you on Android, it can track you on BB10. Android apps are installed in their own "sandbox" on BB10, which does offer some security as far as malware, but if you grant an Android app permissions to access your location and contacts, for example, then if it has a tracker built in that information is probably still collected.

    If you use Android apps on BB10, which uses Android runtime version 4.3, and therefore doesn't allow you to opt in or out of individual Android app permissions, you just have to make sure you only install Android apps you trust. If an app asks for a permission you are not willing to grant, then you don't install it.

    But for all we know, some BB10 apps may be doing the same thing, to some extent.

    For example, Nemory Studios - the developer of popular apps like Face10 and Insta10 - was once called out for potentially collecting unencrypted personal data via its apps:

    https://crackberry.com/some-popular-...their-security

    But overall, I believe the risk to privacy to be significantly lower on BBOS and BB10, not only due to the privacy and security features of each OS, but due to their unpopularity and obscurity. Those who employ data collection for the purposes of monetization or more nefarious purposes will be able to cast a much wider net over Android devices. They probably wouldn't try to target the few million remaining BBOS and BB10 users when they can target hundreds of millions of Android users.

    Supporting BB10 and BBOS Customers and Rewarding Your Loyalty | Inside BlackBerry-capture.png

    For example, Android app permissions, as I mentioned earlier. Over 46% of active Android devices are running Android Lollipop 5.1 or older, which means they are unable to manage individual app permissions. They install an app, it gets all the permissions it asks for. Seems like that's a much more fertile field for data-miners, and probably a big reason so many app developers still support those older versions of Android.
    rayporsche likes this.
    12-15-17 02:39 PM
  5. co4nd's Avatar
    Because I collect old bb10 devices like most of us.
    If you collect it don't open the box, it will gain more value that way.
    12-15-17 02:55 PM
  6. RaybanRJ's Avatar
    I think BlackBerry's position is simply that everyone on a BBOS or BB10 device needs to migrate within 2 years.

    I don't think they'd want to commit to keeping ANYTHING working after that.
    Well that’s certainly a given since those of us with the BBOS phones also use them as a back up phone or a secondary phone, not always primary.
    12-15-17 03:03 PM
  7. Invictus0's Avatar
    I think BlackBerry's position is simply that everyone on a BBOS or BB10 device needs to migrate within 2 years.

    I don't think they'd want to commit to keeping ANYTHING working after that.
    Agreed, but I'm sure if BB World's closure also means your existing apps will break it'll probably incentivize more users to upgrade before then. I think it can be assumed that in app purchases and subscriptions will stop working without BB World, but what else?
    rayporsche likes this.
    12-15-17 03:40 PM
  8. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Aside from the fact that Android is merely a glorified data-harvesting platform intended to feed Google's targeted advertising business, research has shown that many of the most popular Android apps have embedded third-party trackers from scores of companies that are also collecting all kinds of data about everything from your web browsing history to your exact location. Although to a lesser extent, perhaps, many iOS apps likely have trackers, as well.

    I believe this rampant data collection is a threat to personal privacy and security. If any one of these tracking companies is irresponsible with your data in any way, the consequences could be quite severe.

    There are many people (and many forum members here) that try to marginalize those of us who have such concerns - probably in an attempt to justify to themselves that risking their privacy is worth having their shiny new gadget that can do so many amazing things. Indeed, the allure and stranglehold of the likes of Netflix, Candy Crush, and Instagram on the human mind seem to override, for most people, any risk to their privacy or security - whether potential or actual.

    If you ask the average person whether they would keep using a smartphone if they knew for a fact that it was not protecting their privacy, I daresay most of them would say yes.

    I believe my privacy is too high a price to pay for convenience. But I still want at least a few of the conveniences that a smartphone affords. So where does that leave me?
    I'm guessing you don't use the web very much either, or you are one of the very, very few who take Herculean efforts to mask your identity when online at all times. The WWW is one of the biggest data trackers ever created.

    Apple does collect data and allow data collection in iOS apps, but Apple's business model does not include targeted advertising - they are a hardware and software company that has succeeded at the high quality, high profit margin game.
    Really? I'm not sure where this myth comes from, but just because Apple is LESS reliant on advertising than Google doesn't mean they don't have targeted ads and don't collect data from them, because they absolutely do.

    support dot apple dot com/en-us/HT205223

    BB also had an ad platform for targeted advertising, but they shut it down in late 2013 because they got very little in the way of sales, due to the lack of adoption of the BB10 platform itself. Had BB10 succeeded, though, targeted ads would have been apart of it.

    I imagine you don't shop online, either, or use a credit/debit card at WalMart, Target, etc., and certainly don't have a membership account at Costco or Sam's Club, or use a loyalty card anywhere, because if you do, all of those companies have extensive profiles about you.

    But it doesn't matter to most of the world. They shop at Walmart and Amazon and surf the web logged in to their browser and want access to apps in their app store - and often prefer the free, ad-supported versions rather than paying a few bucks for the ad-free version. And as long as that's true, the market is going to focus on the majority and ignore the exceptions.

    At least now you can get solar for your cabin in the woods...
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    12-15-17 04:02 PM
  9. DallinCrump's Avatar
    I'm guessing you don't use the web very much either, or you are one of the very, very few who take Herculean efforts to mask your identity when online at all times. The WWW is one of the biggest data trackers ever created.



    Really? I'm not sure where this myth comes from, but just because Apple is LESS reliant on advertising than Google doesn't mean they don't have targeted ads and don't collect data from them, because they absolutely do.

    support dot apple dot com/en-us/HT205223

    BB also had an ad platform for targeted advertising, but they shut it down in late 2013 because they got very little in the way of sales, due to the lack of adoption of the BB10 platform itself. Had BB10 succeeded, though, targeted ads would have been apart of it.

    I imagine you don't shop online, either, or use a credit/debit card at WalMart, Target, etc., and certainly don't have a membership account at Costco or Sam's Club, or use a loyalty card anywhere, because if you do, all of those companies have extensive profiles about you.

    But it doesn't matter to most of the world. They shop at Walmart and Amazon and surf the web logged in to their browser and want access to apps in their app store - and often prefer the free, ad-supported versions rather than paying a few bucks for the ad-free version. And as long as that's true, the market is going to focus on the majority and ignore the exceptions.

    At least now you can get solar for your cabin in the woods...
    Your condescending reply was not appreciated. You can express disagreement without engaging in ad-hominem conjecture regarding my personal preferences and lifestyle. Frankly, it's none of your business, and I don't have to justify it to you or anyone else.

    It puzzles me why people feel the need to denigrate those who express concerns about their online privacy. Maybe it's to try to make themselves feel better about their own choice to embrace the ever-increasing surveillance?

    Also, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.
    12-15-17 04:31 PM
  10. Invictus0's Avatar
    I'm guessing you don't use the web very much either, or you are one of the very, very few who take Herculean efforts to mask your identity when online at all times. The WWW is one of the biggest data trackers ever created.



    Really? I'm not sure where this myth comes from, but just because Apple is LESS reliant on advertising than Google doesn't mean they don't have targeted ads and don't collect data from them, because they absolutely do.

    support dot apple dot com/en-us/HT205223

    BB also had an ad platform for targeted advertising, but they shut it down in late 2013 because they got very little in the way of sales, due to the lack of adoption of the BB10 platform itself. Had BB10 succeeded, though, targeted ads would have been apart of it.

    I imagine you don't shop online, either, or use a credit/debit card at WalMart, Target, etc., and certainly don't have a membership account at Costco or Sam's Club, or use a loyalty card anywhere, because if you do, all of those companies have extensive profiles about you.

    But it doesn't matter to most of the world. They shop at Walmart and Amazon and surf the web logged in to their browser and want access to apps in their app store - and often prefer the free, ad-supported versions rather than paying a few bucks for the ad-free version. And as long as that's true, the market is going to focus on the majority and ignore the exceptions.

    At least now you can get solar for your cabin in the woods...
    The difference between Apple and Google asides from the scope of their collection is while Apple does collect some user data they don't build user profiles with it so ads aren't as targeted and there aren't as many privacy concerns compared to what Google or Facebook do. Tim Cook has also been quite vocal about what differentiates themselves from other services,

    Apple goes public on privacy policy - Telegraph

    I don't think BlackBerry was building user profiles with their ad network either. Ad networks, data collection, etc on their own aren't bad, it's usually what's done with that data or the amount of data that makes some people uneasy.
    12-15-17 04:37 PM
  11. stlabrat's Avatar
    "All the BB10 users never translate into money gains for BlackBerry Limited," not a fair statement: BES was build upon BB10/BBOS users before they open up to cross platform, before they brought "good" before chen's boss' money in effect, before chen on board. Even today, the qualcomm money of 700 million (USD) still are the BB10 money that sustain for the chen's vision - what you think BB balance sheet would look like without that 700 million last quarter? I rest my case.
    elfabio80 likes this.
    12-15-17 04:55 PM
  12. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    What about us PlayBook owners? Snarl!
    12-15-17 04:57 PM
  13. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    Interestingly enough, it is possible to install native apps on BBOS devices without BlackBerry world, but it is not possible to do so in BB10 (that I am aware of).
    It is *possible* to install native .bar files on a BB10 device. Remember the SNAP app? But since few developers have released .bar files, the point is moot. Almost every BB10 app available on BB World will disappear when the store closes, unless the author has chosen to make a .bar file available.
    12-15-17 05:05 PM
  14. scubafan's Avatar
    Why would you do that?
    Well, I plan to get a Classic in the next few days to replace my aging Q10! I deeply despise the intrusive way scroogle wants to given access to every possible aspects of my life just to activate their devices!

    Thankfully most of the services BlackBerry is turning off are ones that I don't use. So barring some kind of "update" that disabled the phone (like another user wrote) I plan to continue using BB10 phones for the foreseeable future.

    They do everything I ask for, run smoothly and aren't hiding controls in sub menus that aren't intuitive. So I agree with the other post...

    Just my $.02, YMMV ! ;-) sent via my Q10
    12-15-17 05:13 PM
  15. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    The difference between Apple and Google asides from the scope of their collection is while Apple does collect some user data they don't build user profiles with it so ads aren't as targeted and there aren't as many privacy concerns compared to what Google or Facebook do. Tim Cook has also been quite vocal about what differentiates themselves from other services,

    Apple goes public on privacy policy - Telegraph

    I don't think BlackBerry was building user profiles with their ad network either. Ad networks, data collection, etc on their own aren't bad, it's usually what's done with that data or the amount of data that makes some people uneasy.
    Of course they build user profiles - that's how targeted advertising works.
    12-15-17 05:39 PM
  16. INFOmuzRON's Avatar
    BlackBerry is out of the hardware business. It's up to the licensees to offer new devices that they think will appeal to people.

    TCL has already decided that the KEYᵒⁿᵉ/Motion is the best angle of attack.

    The "large" install base of BB10 users amount to $1-$2 million people - and probably 2/3 of those would not consider android anyways.
    It doesnt matter if BlackBerry is or is not in the hardware business if they do not continue working on the BBOS from my view point it is an android system with a BlackBerry sticker over it. BlackBerry needs to go back to its roots of creating a device with its operating system they had and continue to develop till BBOS 10.3.XXXX. and i would be part of the 2/3 that wouldn't consider using an android OS phone having used android OS to get a feel of what android OS has to offer before saying no to android OS and a BlackBerry "powered by Android"
    rayporsche likes this.
    12-15-17 05:41 PM
  17. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    "All the BB10 users never translate into money gains for BlackBerry Limited," not a fair statement: BES was build upon BB10/BBOS users before they open up to cross platform, before they brought "good" before chen's boss' money in effect, before chen on board. Even today, the qualcomm money of 700 million (USD) still are the BB10 money that sustain for the chen's vision - what you think BB balance sheet would look like without that 700 million last quarter? I rest my case.
    BB10 cost the company a net loss of around $10 billion, so even with the Qualcomm refund, they're in the hole over $9 B.

    That's like opening a hotdog stand and selling hotdogs that cost you $5 each (when you add food cost, labor, electricity, advertising, licensing, etc.) for $4 each. You may be happy that you sold more today than you did yesterday, but all you ended up doing is being further in debt. BB10 needed to sell an absolute minimum of 10M devices per year just to break even, and on their best year, they almost sold half that, and then had to significantly discount all of the excess inventory they'd built and contracted for, which led to further losses. Mike's concept for the BB10 platform required sales of 20M or more (he predicted 30-40M) per year in order for BB to do well enough to be comfortably profitable, but they never got anywhere close to that.
    12-15-17 05:45 PM
  18. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    i would be part of the 2/3 that wouldn't consider using an android OS phone
    That's fine. BB made peace with that when they left the hardware business. You are free to go to iOS, or Sailfish, or back to a flip phone if you like. BB doesn't have anything to offer you phone-wise if you aren't interested in Android, and they're okay with that.
    12-15-17 05:48 PM
  19. joeldf's Avatar
    It doesnt matter if BlackBerry is or is not in the hardware business if they do not continue working on the BBOS from my view point it is an android system with a BlackBerry sticker over it. BlackBerry needs to go back to its roots of creating a device with its operating system they had and continue to develop till BBOS 10.3.XXXX. and i would be part of the 2/3 that wouldn't consider using an android OS phone having used android OS to get a feel of what android OS has to offer before saying no to android OS and a BlackBerry "powered by Android"
    BlackBerry needs to make money, so it does matter. And it's clear that continued development of BB10 wasn't doing that.

    Why is that so hard to understand?
    DrBoomBotz, rayporsche and glwerry like this.
    12-15-17 05:49 PM
  20. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Your condescending reply was not appreciated. You can express disagreement without engaging in ad-hominem conjecture regarding my personal preferences and lifestyle. Frankly, it's none of your business, and I don't have to justify it to you or anyone else.
    You had some condescending words of your own in your original post - I assumed that you could take as well as you gave. My mistake. We can agree to disagree.
    12-15-17 05:52 PM
  21. DallinCrump's Avatar
    You had some condescending words of your own in your original post - I assumed that you could take as well as you gave. My mistake. We can agree to disagree.
    Ah, so this is some kind of contest to you. Makes sense.
    zer0ten likes this.
    12-15-17 06:01 PM
  22. INFOmuzRON's Avatar
    BlackBerry needs to make money, so it does matter. And it's clear that continued development of BB10 wasn't doing that.

    Why is that so hard to understand?
    BBOS was making them money. just a friendly reminder "BB10" was a development from a BBOS 7... they skipped about 3 deployments that they could have made to continue making money.
    12-15-17 06:45 PM
  23. conite's Avatar
    BBOS was making them money. just a friendly reminder "BB10" was a development from a BBOS 7... they skipped about 3 deployments that they could have made to continue making money.
    Huh?

    BBOS was a technology that couldn't be scaled any higher and was incapable of responding to Android and iOS.

    They developed BB10 after the acquisition of QNX, and brought it to market to compete with, what was in 2013, the 2 established players.

    They were 6 years too late to the party and got their butts handed to them. The company subsequently went up for sale at the end of the first summer.
    12-15-17 06:54 PM
  24. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    I am laughing at all the people who complain about BlackBerry when I'm going to likely get 7 great years out of my Z10. Time to buy a couple more batteries!

    I actually love my KEYone and may get a Motion if it comes to the US, but the Z10 is the phone I live and die by everyday.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    12-15-17 06:54 PM
  25. Invictus0's Avatar
    Of course they build user profiles - that's how targeted advertising works.
    Sure but they aren't mega profiles that combine user data from across different services. This article gives some examples,

    https://www.propublica.org/article/g...e-web-tracking

    Apple executives have said they don't do this. Apple actually has a section on their privacy site that details where targeted ad data is from,

    Ads in the App Store and News do not access user data from other Apple services like Apple Pay, Maps, Siri, iMessage, and iCloud. They also don’t use data from user devices through services and functions such as Health, HomeKit, email, contacts, and call history. In the App Store, your search and download history may be used to serve you relevant search ads.
    https://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-privacy/

    As you said, data collection and tracking is practically unavoidable on the internet at this point, but that doesn't mean there can't be different approaches to it.
    12-15-17 06:56 PM
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