01-17-18 12:00 PM
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  1. glwerry's Avatar
    New drivers probably, porting to new device and Q & A and a browser update, but how is this a new BB10?
    Dude, have you ever ported software to a NEW DEVICE?

    I have.
    Twice.
    3x, if you want in include the Y2K situation.

    THIS IS NOT A TRIVIAL EXERCISE. You seem to think it is.
    Please - let's trot out your credentials to back up your statements. Have you ever migrated a large, complex software system to a new processor?
    arfeo likes this.
    01-09-18 12:11 PM
  2. conite's Avatar
    New drivers probably, porting to new device and Q & A and a browser update, but how is this a new BB10?
    If a few guys working out of a garage could do it, it would have been done already.

    BlackBerry has done the math, and it's so far away from break-even you can't even see it.
    01-09-18 12:11 PM
  3. howarmat's Avatar
    New drivers probably, porting to new device and Q & A and a browser update, but how is this a new BB10?
    because all the software tools that support the old BB10 are obsolete.
    01-09-18 12:14 PM
  4. DonHB's Avatar
    Dude, have you ever ported software to a NEW DEVICE?

    I have.
    Twice.
    3x, if you want in include the Y2K situation.

    THIS IS NOT A TRIVIAL EXERCISE. You seem to think it is.
    Please - let's trot out your credentials to back up your statements. Have you ever migrated a large, complex software system to a new processor?
    So, educate us, but remember this is the same product line. This is not going from x64 to ARM.
    01-09-18 12:43 PM
  5. johnny_bravo72's Avatar
    So, educate us, but remember this is the same product line. This is not going from x64 to ARM.
    Hmmm... Deflecting.
    I guess we know your answer. šŸ˜µ
    01-09-18 12:53 PM
  6. conite's Avatar
    So, educate us, but remember this is the same product line. This is not going from x64 to ARM.
    It's only you that needs to be educated. The rest of us understand already. There is no "us".
    01-09-18 12:53 PM
  7. glwerry's Avatar
    So, educate us, but remember this is the same product line. This is not going from x64 to ARM.
    Check the 3 previous answers. That's part of it.
    Here's an example.

    We had an emulator that sat on top of a certain version of Unix.
    The following release of Unix changed the way that regular expressions worked.
    That mean that we had $250,000 CAD of work to do on the emulator in order to go to the next release of Unix.

    It has also been stated that BB10 is a 32-bit product but the new processors are 64 bit ones. I'm out of my league here in terms of the specifics, but if the software tools used to build the 32 bit BB10 are not ported to 64 bit then those have to be updated first.

    This is where you start to run into serious effort - potentially requiring years of work.

    As an example, when we did our Y2K effort we had between 2 and 4 people working for FOUR YEARS. That's NOT changing processors or operating systems, which we would have to do.

    Plus which, we have the whole issue of what is the business case?

    There just seriously isn't one. Especially since even if we DID get the guys in the garage to do a new BB10 autoloader, there is the bit about the apps - how do you convince the big dogs like Facebook / WhatsApp to build for you?
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    01-09-18 12:59 PM
  8. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    So, educate us, but remember this is the same product line. This is not going from x64 to ARM.
    I constantly say I'm no IT guy but I can say even I get what everyone's saying. There is no us that includes me. You're dwindling in numbers that includes your "us". You're becoming the captain of the sinking boat. The last guy on board.
    glwerry and anon(9803228) like this.
    01-09-18 01:04 PM
  9. thurask's Avatar
    There just seriously isn't one. Especially since even if we DID get the guys in the garage to do a new BB10 autoloader, there is the bit about the apps - how do you convince the big dogs like Facebook / WhatsApp to build for you?
    Anything is possible when one has zero grip on reality.
    01-09-18 01:11 PM
  10. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Let's PRETEND that you could still buy SD801s and the components that go with them (not that that's viable hardware to sell in 2018, but still), and there are already QNX drivers for everything.

    BB would STILL have to rip out the Android Runtime, which is now a violation of their Google license. The runtime is very deeply embedded in the OS, and I expect that you'd need a team of 200-300 people working for a year to rip it out, patch up all the holes, test everything, and have it ready for release... right around the time BB is about to flip off the switch to the BB World servers. But even for the 6 months or so they were still running, BB World will have lost a lot more apps from developers pulling them as we've seen recently with the NYT and WhatsApp - and a lot of the apps in BB World are just Android apps which wouldn't run without the runtime.

    Seriously, who would buy BB10 at that point? Who would even load it for free? A few dozen? And who would pay for all that development work?

    Of course, in the real world, the Android Runtime needing to be removed is only one of a dozen major problems that would have to be solved, and we're already under 2 years of life.

    I suspect those "millions still using BB10 and BBOS" is probably something like 500k on BB10 and 1.5M on BBOS (in emerging market countries where they simply don't have the money to buy phones often or to buy expensive phones). There definitely aren't "millions" (or even a million) people still using BB10, and the number of holdouts gets smaller every day. It's certain that no business would invest another cent in buying BB10 phones, so we're back to a handful of BB10 fans. There's simply no possible way to make money, and BB under Chen is not a charity.
    ppeters914 and StephanieMaks like this.
    01-09-18 01:19 PM
  11. DonHB's Avatar
    Check the 3 previous answers. That's part of it.
    Here's an example.

    We had an emulator that sat on top of a certain version of Unix.
    The following release of Unix changed the way that regular expressions worked.
    That mean that we had $250,000 CAD of work to do on the emulator in order to go to the next release of Unix.

    It has also been stated that BB10 is a 32-bit product but the new processors are 64 bit ones. I'm out of my league here in terms of the specifics, but if the software tools used to build the 32 bit BB10 are not ported to 64 bit then those have to be updated first.

    This is where you start to run into serious effort - potentially requiring years of work.

    As an example, when we did our Y2K effort we had between 2 and 4 people working for FOUR YEARS. That's NOT changing processors or operating systems, which we would have to do.

    Plus which, we have the whole issue of what is the business case?

    There just seriously isn't one. Especially since even if we DID get the guys in the garage to do a new BB10 autoloader, there is the bit about the apps - how do you convince the big dogs like Facebook / WhatsApp to build for you?
    I had hoped you would be able to discuss issues you had regarding mobile devices and porting between generations and models of Snapdragon SoC.

    I have minimal expectations for the first autoloader. So, much so that I don't expect the K1 is a candidate due to the dimensions of its screen.

    I believe Snapdragon 64-bit chips support 32-bit code. It should not be necessary to convert it to 64-bit.

    As far as software - just update the browser. They released 10.3.3 with the Android Player seems they can keep the aging version in there. Get BB10.3.4 autoloader out there quickly.

    I assume, with the attendant risks, that Snapdragon preserves a good level of compatibility between generations (and models of their SoC). Qualcomm products have the highest level of integration of such products on the market which means that they do not have an explosion of peripheral choices and respective drivers as when other SoCes are used.

    So, Snapdragon have evolved and are not completely new from generation to generation in terms of driver requirements and platform compatibility. Assuming this is true they could target the Motion first and only consider real changes to the OS with their knowledge of BlackBerry Mobile's next device.

    Also, Qualcomm is partnering with QNX on radios for cars. They didn't mentions specific parts, but it is promising in terms of reducing driver costs and keeping network support up-to-date.

    I don't have BlackBerry's actual numbers in terms of their development costs nor actual numbers of BBOS and BB10 customers. I will leave the speculation of a business case to others.

    As a side note it is interesting that BlackBerry talks security, but not much about privacy anymore.
    01-09-18 09:57 PM
  12. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I had hoped you would be able to discuss issues you had regarding mobile devices and porting between generations and models of Snapdragon SoC.

    I have minimal expectations for the first autoloader. So, much so that I don't expect the K1 is a candidate due to the dimensions of its screen.

    I believe Snapdragon 64-bit chips support 32-bit code. It should not be necessary to convert it to 64-bit.

    As far as software - just update the browser. They released 10.3.3 with the Android Player seems they can keep the aging version in there. Get BB10.3.4 autoloader out there quickly.

    I assume, with the attendant risks, that Snapdragon preserves a good level of compatibility between generations (and models of their SoC). Qualcomm products have the highest level of integration of such products on the market which means that they do not have an explosion of peripheral choices and respective drivers as when other SoCes are used.

    So, Snapdragon have evolved and are not completely new from generation to generation in terms of driver requirements and platform compatibility. Assuming this is true they could target the Motion first and only consider real changes to the OS with their knowledge of BlackBerry Mobile's next device.

    Also, Qualcomm is partnering with QNX on radios for cars. They didn't mentions specific parts, but it is promising in terms of reducing driver costs and keeping network support up-to-date.

    I don't have BlackBerry's actual numbers in terms of their development costs nor actual numbers of BBOS and BB10 customers. I will leave the speculation of a business case to others.

    As a side note it is interesting that BlackBerry talks security, but not much about privacy anymore.
    Most likely, not enough people care about you privacy concerns to be profitable so they've moved on. Same reason they stopped talking about BBOS and BB10 too.
    01-09-18 10:05 PM
  13. conite's Avatar
    I had hoped you would be able to discuss issues you had regarding mobile devices and porting between generations and models of Snapdragon SoC.

    I have minimal expectations for the first autoloader. So, much so that I don't expect the K1 is a candidate due to the dimensions of its screen.

    I believe Snapdragon 64-bit chips support 32-bit code. It should not be necessary to convert it to 64-bit.

    As far as software - just update the browser. They released 10.3.3 with the Android Player seems they can keep the aging version in there. Get BB10.3.4 autoloader out there quickly.

    I assume, with the attendant risks, that Snapdragon preserves a good level of compatibility between generations (and models of their SoC). Qualcomm products have the highest level of integration of such products on the market which means that they do not have an explosion of peripheral choices and respective drivers as when other SoCes are used.

    So, Snapdragon have evolved and are not completely new from generation to generation in terms of driver requirements and platform compatibility. Assuming this is true they could target the Motion first and only consider real changes to the OS with their knowledge of BlackBerry Mobile's next device.

    Also, Qualcomm is partnering with QNX on radios for cars. They didn't mentions specific parts, but it is promising in terms of reducing driver costs and keeping network support up-to-date.

    I don't have BlackBerry's actual numbers in terms of their development costs nor actual numbers of BBOS and BB10 customers. I will leave the speculation of a business case to others.

    As a side note it is interesting that BlackBerry talks security, but not much about privacy anymore.
    Well, I have to give it to you. Facts and consensus expertise don't seem to have any impact on you.

    After weeks or months of being educated on everything from business studies to software development, you are utterly unfazed.
    ppeters914 likes this.
    01-09-18 10:32 PM
  14. SomeoneOrOther's Avatar
    To be fair, BlackBerry's first full touch phone was the Storm in 2008 - just a year after the release of the iPhone. Of course it was not well received, was only a CDMA model in the US (Verizon exclusive), and by the time the Storm 2 came out a year later fixing the complaints, it was too late to redeem the thing.

    Then, there's the first BlackBerry slider - the Torch 9800 in the summer of 2010. And, the non-slider, full touch 9850/9860 released in the summer of 2011. It would be two more years before the release of the Z10.

    BlackBerry App World (it's original name) was initially released in Spring 2009 under the BBOS. It could be considered a bit late. Prior to that, apps for BBOS were generally available directly from the developer. It was re-branded simply BlackBerry World with BB10.

    But, I agree, everything else you mentioned was released - including BB10 itself - way too late.
    Thanks for the clarification. Although it doesn't make it less frustrating that due to management's (Lazaridis' and Balsillie's) missteps and lack of vision, we now have to suck up to using iOS or Android. Not great honestly. And how can the Hub ever be great on Android; it looks rather neutered and lacks a certain "baked into the OS" feel. Anyway, for workflow, hard to beat BB10
    DonHB likes this.
    01-10-18 03:19 AM
  15. kvndoom's Avatar
    Well, I have to give it to you. Facts and consensus expertise don't seem to have any impact on you.

    After weeks or months of being educated on everything from business studies to software development, you are utterly unfazed.
    It's an unscalable wall of denial. Ever see when a celebrity criminal confesses, pleads guilty, or is caught in the act on video, and somehow his fans still vehemently protest his innocence?
    01-10-18 09:50 AM
  16. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    It's an unscalable wall of denial. Ever see when a celebrity criminal confesses, pleads guilty, or is caught in the act on video, and somehow his fans still vehemently protest his innocence?
    Funny thing is BB10 is no Kardashian or Britney Spears.
    01-10-18 09:59 AM
  17. anon(9803228)'s Avatar
    I don't have BlackBerry's actual numbers in terms of their development costs nor actual numbers of BBOS and BB10 customers. I will leave the speculation of a business case to others.
    This is the equivalent of turning on ā€œUnlimited fundsā€ mode in SimCity, Railway Tycoon or any similar strategy game.
    The problem is: no such mode exists in real life.
    01-10-18 10:16 AM
  18. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    This is the equivalent of turning on ā€œUnlimited fundsā€ mode in SimCity, Railway Tycoon or any similar strategy game.
    The problem is: no such mode exists in real life.
    I prefer cheats in GTA
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    01-10-18 10:18 AM
  19. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    It's an unscalable wall of denial. Ever see when a celebrity criminal confesses, pleads guilty, or is caught in the act on video, and somehow his fans still vehemently protest his innocence?
    "My baby didn't do nuffin!"
    01-10-18 01:21 PM
  20. Mostdistortion's Avatar
    (...) I bet many of the remaining users live that small, portable form factor. BlackBerry is not providing that option, but other manufacturers are. If I go Android, there's a good bet it won't be BlackBerry.
    Same
    01-10-18 02:41 PM
  21. BBEIGHT's Avatar
    Same
    Any idea what you'll go with? I'm in the same boat. Was looking at the Sony 'Compact' range but the screens aren't far off five inches!

    Posted via CB10
    01-10-18 03:03 PM
  22. DonHB's Avatar
    Well, I have to give it to you. Facts and consensus expertise don't seem to have any impact on you.

    After weeks or months of being educated on everything from business studies to software development, you are utterly unfazed.
    The dearth of facts puts the claims to expertise into question.
    01-10-18 03:17 PM
  23. YesAndNo's Avatar
    So after all this, there is still hope for BB10...right on.
    01-10-18 03:32 PM
  24. glwerry's Avatar
    The dearth of facts puts the claims to expertise into question.
    Unfortunately, I'm not an expert on the various chips / processors that you were expecting.

    Like I said, though, I have been part of several projects moving systems from one environment to another - sometimes completely different processors and OS's, sometimes to identical processors with different OS's.

    The scale of work required in each case was multiple "man-years".
    I don't expect that there would be any less effort required to do a port of BB10 - this means that the cost is more than the benefits to BB - which is the business case.

    Can I put hard dollars to that? No.
    Can I make a reasonable evaluation based on some reasonable experience? Yes.

    Tell you what - since you are so convinced that this is a reasonable project, why don't YOU sink YOUR MONEY into it and see where it goes.
    01-10-18 03:41 PM
  25. conite's Avatar
    The dearth of facts puts the claims to expertise into question.
    Honestly, this is where you start to veer off track.
    01-10-18 04:24 PM
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