01-17-18 11:00 AM
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  1. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    "If any of floated theories were valid - lawsuits and legal charges should be field. " if my memory serve me right, the law course teach you not sue the penniless, but the one with deep pocket... besides, lawsuits further depress the share price create instability for the remaining hardware (they still got gov contract to fulfill and BES to bank on at the time... if you pull the plug right the way, you had Gov after you, you might end up making HW/SW at lost to fulfill contract regardless on top of the suits... BB legal team at time was not famous to win fight = not like Apple team).
    BlackBerry has lots of cash. Shareholder would sue if they had a case or didn't like the management. Most shareholder are very happy with the current management, which has completed a turn around of the company left in tatters by the founders and Heins.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    01-08-18 08:20 AM
  2. stlabrat's Avatar
    we were talking about 2013-2014 time zone.... before the legal team change hand...
    01-08-18 08:50 AM
  3. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    we were talking about 2013-2014 time zone.... before the legal team change hand...
    Yes. That's the time where they were in a tailspin due to the HUGE failed bet on BB10. They were laying off employees, selling their properties and outsourcing their inventory management to Foxconn.

    Posted with my trusty Z10
    01-08-18 08:58 AM
  4. DonHB's Avatar
    The problem is that costs of R&D of a brand new OS is independent of inventory and marketing costs. And developers that are good enough to work on this are not cheap at all. And then supporting and further developing the OS is a continued cost for BB, one that BB couldn't probably afford.

    Other manufacturers can get away with having a small inventory and competitive prices (let's take OnePlus for example) because most developer costs are handled by Google on their base Android OS. Plus any holes in apps packages is filled instantly by Google Play. Most Android OEMs don't have to deal with making a browser when Chrome is there, free and it's actually pretty good. Same with a multitude of different apps such as email client, photo/document viewer, file-manager, music player etc.

    BBs multitude of apps bundled with the OS was NOT done out of the goodness of their hearth, but out of necessity due to the lack of a robust ecosystem to fill in any holes.
    At first, I would only hope the browser would be updated and security issues like KRACK would be addressed.

    In this scenario BlackBerry would pick a device from an Android licensee partner for which to create an autoloader (people wanting BB10 would buy this Android device). No manufacturing changes would be required and no additional inventory costs would be created. BlackBerry would remain a software company that happens to make hardware--just not handsets. Finally, the recent partnership between QNX and Qualcomm could reduce the cost of drivers.
    01-08-18 12:28 PM
  5. conite's Avatar
    At first, I would only hope the browser would be updated and security issues like KRACK would be addressed.

    In this scenario BlackBerry would pick a device from an Android licensee partner for which to create an autoloader (people wanting BB10 would buy this Android device). No manufacturing changes would be required and no additional inventory costs would be created. BlackBerry would remain a software company that happens to make hardware--just not handsets. Finally, the recent partnership between QNX and Qualcomm could reduce the cost of drivers.
    You can't just create a BB10 autoloader for someone else's device. Why would a current licencee agree to this? Who is going to support it? Who is going to repair it? Who is going to take care of certifications, carrier relations, regulatory issues?

    Why would BlackBerry want to rebuild a BB10 team?

    Why would they spend millions on a dead platform that almost nobody wants?
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    01-08-18 12:40 PM
  6. Soulstream's Avatar
    At first, I would only hope the browser would be updated and security issues like KRACK would be addressed.

    In this scenario BlackBerry would pick a device from an Android licensee partner for which to create an autoloader (people wanting BB10 would buy this Android device). No manufacturing changes would be required and no additional inventory costs would be created. BlackBerry would remain a software company that happens to make hardware--just not handsets. Finally, the recent partnership between QNX and Qualcomm could reduce the cost of drivers.
    This would cost BB, the driver costs from scratch for ALL components in that phone, transition BB10 to a 64bit OS and then pay developers to update some core components. Developers good enough for such tasks are NOT cheap and don't really work project based so you would have to keep them on the clock, paying them for doing nothing after each "update".

    The cheapest Windows 10 version (Windows 10 home) is above 100$ on amazon right now and they sell a lot of copies. How low can BB10 go with the price for people to buy this on top of the device price?
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    01-08-18 02:24 PM
  7. stlabrat's Avatar
    "The cheapest Windows 10 version (Windows 10 home) is above 100$ on amazon right now and they sell a lot of copies. How low can BB10 go with the price for people to buy this on top of the device price?"
    volume discount. how many you expect to sell for BB10 OS only? window has installed base... possibly 10000X BB10 or more... what is your ROI with such a small base? You still need push out update for security as support... at what cost? As for droid, BB/TCL already proven re-branding like dtek not selling well... lack of BB touch feel, even software is BB... (the sell of BB suit on droid store are not very well either... otherwise, 1st quarter 2018 with qualcomm near 1B law suit cash should be positive instead of negative on earning...).
    01-08-18 07:07 PM
  8. DonHB's Avatar
    You can't just create a BB10 autoloader for someone else's device. Why would a current licencee agree to this? Who is going to support it? Who is going to repair it? Who is going to take care of certifications, carrier relations, regulatory issues?

    Why would BlackBerry want to rebuild a BB10 team?

    Why would they spend millions on a dead platform that almost nobody wants?
    Well, BlackBerry claimed a notable number of existing customers when they EoL'd BB10 devices. And getting double licensing income from a single device isn't all that bad. BlackBerry Mobile (TCL) may get a few sales they would have lost to another brand. If using the autoloader doesn't void the warranty, but removes responsibility for supporting the BB10 OS, TCL would reduce their costs.

    You are thinking of this as throwing good money after bad rather than finding value in an existing investment.
    01-08-18 10:13 PM
  9. conite's Avatar
    Well, BlackBerry claimed a notable number of existing customers when they EoL'd BB10 devices. And getting double licensing income from a single device isn't all that bad. BlackBerry Mobile (TCL) may get a few sales they would have lost to another brand. If using the autoloader doesn't void the warranty, but removes responsibility for supporting the BB10 OS, TCL would reduce their costs.
    TCL and other licencees made it clear they have no desire for BB10. They don't want any part of it.

    And BlackBerry will certainly NOT spend millions for a few thousand customers. They have much better ROI with Enterprise and Auto software.
    Last edited by conite; 01-08-18 at 10:46 PM.
    01-08-18 10:19 PM
  10. joeldf's Avatar
    You are thinking of this as throwing good money after bad rather than finding value in an existing investment.
    Obviously, BlackBerry is the one that finds no value, and in the end, that's all that matters.

    Especially since there's essentially no investment left.
    01-08-18 10:43 PM
  11. Invictus0's Avatar
    Well, BlackBerry claimed a notable number of existing customers when they EoL'd BB10 devices. And getting double licensing income from a single device isn't all that bad. BlackBerry Mobile (TCL) may get a few sales they would have lost to another brand. If using the autoloader doesn't void the warranty, but removes responsibility for supporting the BB10 OS, TCL would reduce their costs.

    You are thinking of this as throwing good money after bad rather than finding value in an existing investment.
    The phrase "if you're not growing, you're dying" is pretty popular in business. BlackBerry could have 10 million active BB10 users but if there's no way to turn that in 20 million users there isn't really much point.

    Lets also not forget that a sizable amount could be enterprise users who may have no need to upgrade their OS or can't because of admin restrictions.
    01-08-18 11:23 PM
  12. anon(9697770)'s Avatar
    Hello everybody!

    It's really sad to read bad news, because I am an BlackBerry user since 2015 and don't want leave OS10.
    As a loyal consumer I of course understand BlackBerry Company to change system to Android but why closing BlackBerry World?!
    That's not really fair for a lot of people with OS10.

    I have now a chance to buy a brand new Passport black for 119 Euro (Media Markt in Germany) and will done it!
    I have already an Classic (since 2015) as driver for everyday, an Z10 as an MP3 and sport device, an PP Silver since 2017 for home office.

    I can't find an OS or device outside of OS10 because I really like 0S10 as best OS and all devices with physical keyboard.
    I will be on of the OS10 Customers using OS10 after 2019, as I hope.

    Thank you for your opinion.
    Greez from Germany

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by KubikRubik; 01-09-18 at 02:11 PM.
    elfabio80 likes this.
    01-09-18 01:30 AM
  13. Soulstream's Avatar
    Well, BlackBerry claimed a notable number of existing customers when they EoL'd BB10 devices. And getting double licensing income from a single device isn't all that bad. BlackBerry Mobile (TCL) may get a few sales they would have lost to another brand. If using the autoloader doesn't void the warranty, but removes responsibility for supporting the BB10 OS, TCL would reduce their costs.

    You are thinking of this as throwing good money after bad rather than finding value in an existing investment.
    I think we can all agree that the number of BB10 customers declined in the last two years. The numbers weren't enough then to cover the costs of full support (and from BB10.0 to BB10.3.2 it was full support) so no way that an even lower number of users can support the costs.
    01-09-18 04:10 AM
  14. DonHB's Avatar
    Quoting from the Supporting BB10 and BBOS Customers and Rewarding Your Loyalty blog post:

    And still, in an era where consumers have been “trained” to upgrade their phones every 18-24 months, it is a testament to the durability of our designs and brand loyalty that there are still millions of people actively using BB10 and BBOS devices, many of which are already more than ten years old.

    I guess we shouldn't believe the number still using BBOS and BB10 devices, but how many would upgrade is what could make this feasible.
    01-09-18 09:30 AM
  15. conite's Avatar
    Quoting from the Supporting BB10 and BBOS Customers and Rewarding Your Loyalty blog post:

    And still, in an era where consumers have been “trained” to upgrade their phones every 18-24 months, it is a testament to the durability of our designs and brand loyalty that there are still millions of people actively using BB10 and BBOS devices, many of which are already more than ten years old.

    I guess we shouldn't believe the number still using BBOS and BB10 devices, but how many would upgrade is what could make this feasible.
    What number? "Millions" can be "2 million" for both BBOS and BB10 combined - which I suspect is right on the money.

    Project that to the EOL date 2 years from now, and you are left with a handful of zealots.
    01-09-18 09:35 AM
  16. DonHB's Avatar
    I think we can all agree that the number of BB10 customers declined in the last two years. The numbers weren't enough then to cover the costs of full support (and from BB10.0 to BB10.3.2 it was full support) so no way that an even lower number of users can support the costs.
    You are not considering the impact of inventory on the bottom line. The idea here is that a customer would buy a Motion device who would then buy a BB10 autoloader for that device and load BB10 over Android.
    01-09-18 09:39 AM
  17. DonHB's Avatar
    What number? "Millions" can be "2 million" for both BBOS and BB10 combined - which I suspect is right on the money.

    Project that to the EOL date 2 years from now, and you are left with a handful of zealots.
    They don't need to wait until then to proceed with an autoloader, announce such a plan or take the unlikely approach of crowd funding.
    01-09-18 09:43 AM
  18. conite's Avatar
    They don't need to wait until then to proceed with an autoloader, announce such a plan or take the unlikely approach of crowd funding.
    Why? Why? Why?

    Why rebuild a BB10 team, a compliance infrastructure, and a support infrastructure with ZERO prospect of a positive ROI?
    anon(9803228) likes this.
    01-09-18 09:45 AM
  19. DonHB's Avatar
    Why? Why? Why?

    Why rebuild a BB10 team, a compliance infrastructure, and a support infrastructure with ZERO prospect of a positive ROI?
    Does BlackBerry's Android offering require that they have a compliance infrastructure?

    To avoid the invasiveness of Android and to lessor extent iOS and find value in an existing asset.
    01-09-18 10:06 AM
  20. glwerry's Avatar
    You are not considering the impact of inventory on the bottom line. The idea here is that a customer would buy a Motion device who would then buy a BB10 autoloader for that device and load BB10 over Android.
    There's a scenario that you may have not considered.
    I went from a Classic to a PRIV in order to get a critical app that NO LONGER WORKED under BB10.

    EVEN IF BB10 WERE MADE AVAILABLE FOR MY PRIV OR KEYONE,I AM NOT GOING BACK!
    Why? Well, because THAT APP STILL WOULDN'T RUN ON BB10!!!

    Plus which, I am used to Android now and I'm not going to spend any more money to go back.

    I am not likely alone. Depending on how many people are taking my line of thinking, this reduces your potential market.

    And, you keep ignoring the HUGE SOFTWARE COSTS INVOLVED to get to a "new" BB10.
    This is NOT a simple matter! And, please, if you do not have a background in software development, do NOT start chirping about how easy it would be or how it could be crowd-funded, etc.
    01-09-18 10:13 AM
  21. conite's Avatar
    Does BlackBerry's Android offering require that they have a compliance infrastructure?

    To avoid the invasiveness of Android and to lessor extent iOS and find value in an existing asset.
    TCL has a complete infrastructure set up for regulatory compliance and certification.

    How do you extract value by losing more money?
    01-09-18 10:20 AM
  22. Emaderton3's Avatar
    Does BlackBerry's Android offering require that they have a compliance infrastructure?

    To avoid the invasiveness of Android and to lessor extent iOS and find value in an existing asset.
    But there is no value left in that asset else someone else would have licensed it by now. And even if these two million people bought the next round of newly designed BB10 phones, we know from the past that such numbers aren't high enough to be profitable.
    01-09-18 10:26 AM
  23. Soulstream's Avatar
    You are not considering the impact of inventory on the bottom line. The idea here is that a customer would buy a Motion device who would then buy a BB10 autoloader for that device and load BB10 over Android.
    So exactly what Microsoft is doing: sell an OS separate from hardware that can be later installed on a supported piece of hardware.

    And considering the cheapest version of Windows 10 x64 is over 100$ on Amazon and that sells a lot of copies to offset the developer salaries, I would say that a BB10 standalone version would cost much more (probably double) due to limited sales potential.

    The number of people who would be willing to pay that on top of the original device costs (which itself include some Android OS developer costs) is just too small.
    01-09-18 10:35 AM
  24. howarmat's Avatar
    There is no more money in BB10 no matter what. It would be operated a loss and i think the board would fire Chen on any talks on such absolute nonsense.
    anon(9803228) and ppeters914 like this.
    01-09-18 10:41 AM
  25. DonHB's Avatar
    And, you keep ignoring the HUGE SOFTWARE COSTS INVOLVED to get to a "new" BB10.
    This is NOT a simple matter! And, please, if you do not have a background in software development, do NOT start chirping about how easy it would be or how it could be crowd-funded, etc.
    New drivers probably, porting to new device and Q & A and a browser update, but how is this a new BB10?
    01-09-18 11:07 AM
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